PVC pipes leaking inside the wall

[Guitar God]

I have a 2 year old house and a pipe inside the wall began leaking. I assumed they'd find a poorly glued joint that began leaking but when they uncovered the problem area it was a small hole in the pipe itself.

It's 1/2" 13.5  pipe that according to the pressure charts I've seen, the maximum pressure is around 350 psi, the bursting pressure is around 2000 psi and our pump, on high pressure mode is 40 psi.

I understand that toilet valves and wash machines cause a much higher pressure spike when they shut off. People have said it's because the pump is too powerful that the pipe broke but I don't see how.

I have a Hitachi WM-P750GX inverter pump that runs in normal mode (not constant pressure) and in high pressure mode.  I have low but acceptable pressure in the kitchen, decent pressure upstairs at a faucet  (designed I'm guessing for the mae baan to fill a bucket of water) but disappointingly low pressure and low flow rate for the four showers.

How could a PVC pipe in a wall spring a leak?

[bankruatsteve]

Did "they" show you the small hole or is that just what "they" said?  Has there been drilling activity in the same area of the wall?  A pin-prick hole at a joint indicates the glue wasn't distributed properly.  When PVC ruptures due to pressure I doubt that will result in a small hole.

 

I'm not familiar with your pump, but something doesn't seem right given your description of water pressure.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Guitar God said:

How could a PVC pipe in a wall spring a leak?

 

Quite easily by either bad workmanship or not being installed correctly.

Someone whacking a nail in wall area or drilling for bracket fixings.

Installing the pipe in place without checking the condition of it.

Putting wrong bends & joiners in places they shouldn't be put.

 

1 hour ago, Guitar God said:

People have said it's because the pump is too powerful that the pipe broke but I don't see how.

 

" Don't see how "  your right,  excuses  excuses.

 

Had lesser problems with our new house with plumbing,  I hate plumbing.

Sorry to be bearer of bad news but with all your high and low pressures at showers etc you mention the problem you have is not easily solved with piping & bends & joiners being within walls with no access points.

 

Any house building problem can be solved,  you will just have deal with it best you can and go about getting the best results you can settle with.

 

Hope it works out.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Kwasaki

[CGW]

I would hazard a guess that this was more of a quality control issue? you can rate pipe for whatever pressure you want, but it needs to be proven to guarantee  this is the psi it will actually work at in the real world.

Pin holes can be caused by the pipe moving/vibrating if they are not tied down, if there was a sharp piece of concrete or stone where the pin hole is this could have caused problem!

In the real world! pipes are secured and when laid in the ground fine sand should be put around them to prevent this problem!!

13.5 kgf/cm2 pipe is rated at ~192 Psi, or that is my understanding, difficult to believe it is rated at 2k burst!

Good luck...........

[Guitar God]

 
" Don't see how "  your right,  excuses  excuses.
 
Had lesser problems with our new house with plumbing,  I hate plumbing.
Sorry to be bearer of bad news but with all your high and low pressures at showers etc you mention the problem you have is not easily solved with piping & bends & joiners being within walls with no access points.
 
Any house building problem can be solved,  you will just have deal with it best you can and go about getting the best results you can settle with.
 
Hope it works out.
 
 

The pipe was in a brick wall behind tile so nobody had access to it to damage it. I didn't see where the cavity was filled with any sand. I think they built the wall around it and filled it with concrete. I didn't see any damage to the pipe, just a pinhole leak. It could well have been either a defective pipe with a thin spot or it got hit with a sharp edge of a brick or maybe damaged due to settling.

Is there any truth to what I'm hearing that our 240 kPa/ 40 psi pump is too powerful for crappy Thai plumbing?

I have a couple pressure surge damping chambers I was going to install on the washing machine and on a toilet on each floor but I'd have to get adaptors for them the fit. They're used in the U.S. to keep copper pipes from banging with the water tap or toilet valves close.

Do you think those would help prevent problems with other pipes in the house?


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[kamalabob2]

13.5 is a good option for PVC pipe. Poly Pipe 13.5 is better than PVC blue pipe. I have owned a Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Water pump for a six bathroom home. You must have quite a few taps to warranty the 23,000 baht Hitachi WM-750GX Inverter Water pump in Thailand. I did not have any syler ppr pipe break nor any blue polypipe 13.5 pipes break in my home, but a couple of connections behind tile were fixed the day my water pump first operated in 2008.  I am not familiar with a pressure surge damping chamber. You might contact the manufacturer of the blue pipe that is in your home.Finding a good plumber in Buriram was a priority when I moved to Thailand. 

[CGW]

^^I have been using the same pump for 3 years on a one story/4 bathroom house for 3 years, I know I'm tempting fate when I say "no problems" so far!

 

The pump is an "Inverter" type which should take care of Psi fluctuations - so doubt need Psi dampeners for your system, my pump is set at ~300kpa (43psi)

 

Finding a good plumber in Thailand? do they exist! they certainly keep the book of excuses up to date! - I find it easier & less stressful to do my own "plumbing"!

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, Guitar God said:

 

The pipe was in a brick wall behind tile so nobody had access to it to damage it. I didn't see where the cavity was filled with any sand. I think they built the wall around it and filled it with concrete. I didn't see any damage to the pipe, just a pinhole leak. It could well have been either a defective pipe with a thin spot or it got hit with a sharp edge of a brick or maybe damaged due to settling.

Is there any truth to what I'm hearing that our 240 kPa/ 40 psi pump is too powerful for crappy Thai plumbing?

I have a couple pressure surge damping chambers I was going to install on the washing machine and on a toilet on each floor but I'd have to get adaptors for them the fit. They're used in the U.S. to keep copper pipes from banging with the water tap or toilet valves close.

Do you think those would help prevent problems with other pipes in the house?

 

 

 

Difficult to say what l reckon on the leak without seeing firsthand,  just has to have been damaged after installation or during settlement in someway.

 

I would say no truth in the comments on the Hitachi 40 psi pump unless you have more problems and that would be down to pipe installation not the pump.

My one is the same and l have PVC pipe and good pressure upstairs which l would say is more luck than calculated judgement.  

 

I'm not familiar with pressure surge damping chambers can't see the point of them really,  l have no banging or rattles in our PVC water piping with on & off pressure.

Maybe someone else could help with that, as l said  " l hate plumbing " . 

 

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

4 minutes ago, CGW said:

^^I have been using the same pump for 3 years on a one story/4 bathroom house for 3 years, I know I'm tempting fate when I say "no problems" so far!

 

The pump is an "Inverter" type which should take care of Psi fluctuations - so doubt need Psi dampeners for your system, my pump is set at ~300kpa (43psi)

 

Finding a good plumber in Thailand? do they exist! they certainly keep the book of excuses up to date! - I find it easier & less stressful to do my own "plumbing"!

 

Oh that's good CGW great we've found a plumber at last, can you pm your phone No.  

[Guitar God]

3 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

Did "they" show you the small hole or is that just what "they" said?  Has there been drilling activity in the same area of the wall?  A pin-prick hole at a joint indicates the glue wasn't distributed properly.  When PVC ruptures due to pressure I doubt that will result in a small hole.

 

I'm not familiar with your pump, but something doesn't seem right given your description of water pressure.

I was there when they got to the source of the leak, with the water on it was just a fine jet of water shooting out, with the water off I only see a small rust red spot where the iron in the water stained it. It looked like the damage occurred from the inside out. 

 

Its impossible for anyone to have damaged it after the wall was skimmed over. There are kitchen  cabinets attached to one side and ceramic tile on the other. 

[Beardog]

More than likely they are feeding you a crock of shit. Most problems here are due to the person doing the plumbing not using enough glue on both sides of the joints. Our 3rd house I trusted my Contractors brother & he poured the pipe in the floor in a nice casket of death within the cement.I always do my own plumbing & had to go to the states & had 97% of the house done. All that was left was the kitchen sink. I left explicit directions to use a 1" pipe around the 1/2 inch with a 3" pipe around the joints just in case it ever did screw up within the next 30 years & Mr Bic neglected to follow orders. when we jack hammered the floor up sure enough he saved about 12 baht by not using enough PVC glue. I always use 13.5 as it is not that much more & if you put the pipe within a pipe you are safe from any nail gun screw gun or shoddy work. Last house I did 100% myself. No leaks anywhere almost 5 years now. I also have a special set of pipe pieces with a air valve & pump 150 PSI into the line. If it does not blow then It never will. Plumber probably skimped on glue. Largest fault with Thai work. I had to teach him to put 4 applications of glue on the inside & outside of pipes to be put together.Anal but I got the point across & he has never made the fatal error twice. I really don't care for the casket of death & would always try to put an access panel if it is going to be a pain in the ass later. Hope the situation is remedied!

[transam]

I had the same problem twice. One in a wall, one underground.....A weeee hole losing water and energising the pump which was driving me up the wall...

The problem was tiny bits of metal IN the plastic tubing that rusted out...When I cut the pipe sections out I could see many tiny bits of metal in the tubing..

[kannot]

Ive never  had a problem............... maybe as Ive always done my  own, its  really the simplest system to use the blue  pipes, youll need cellulose  thinner, fine wet n dry sandpaper, the STRONG  glue not the weak "Thai" green tins the blue/white scb tins or  tubes, sand pipe inside outside, wipe  with cellulose  thinner, apply glue  both pieces, push in hold for 10-15 seconds.

Just finished  some plumbing here, never had a leak in 4 years always use 13.5  pipe  nothing less

[carlyai]

More than likely they are feeding you a crock of shit. Most problems here are due to the person doing the plumbing not using enough glue on both sides of the joints. Our 3rd house I trusted my Contractors brother & he poured the pipe in the floor in a nice casket of death within the cement.I always do my own plumbing & had to go to the states & had 97% of the house done. All that was left was the kitchen sink. I left explicit directions to use a 1" pipe around the 1/2 inch with a 3" pipe around the joints just in case it ever did screw up within the next 30 years & Mr Bic neglected to follow orders. when we jack hammered the floor up sure enough he saved about 12 baht by not using enough PVC glue. I always use 13.5 as it is not that much more & if you put the pipe within a pipe you are safe from any nail gun screw gun or shoddy work. Last house I did 100% myself. No leaks anywhere almost 5 years now. I also have a special set of pipe pieces with a air valve & pump 150 PSI into the line. If it does not blow then It never will. Plumber probably skimped on glue. Largest fault with Thai work. I had to teach him to put 4 applications of glue on the inside & outside of pipes to be put together.Anal but I got the point across & he has never made the fatal error twice. I really don't care for the casket of death & would always try to put an access panel if it is going to be a pain in the ass later. Hope the situation is remedied!

Question: So you put your finger (or what ever) in the glue and smear it on the inside and outside of the part to be joined. Then you do the same again 3 more times? I'm interested as got my irrigation project coming up. [emoji4]





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[transam]

The pipe joint stuff is not a glue.....It melts....

[David B in Thailand]

What brand of pipe joint do you recommend for blue pipe?

[kannot]

3 hours ago, transam said:

The pipe joint stuff is not a glue.....It melts....

it  doesnt melt on the shelf in the shop

[transam]

1 minute ago, kannot said:

it  doesnt melt on the shelf in the shop

You're excused.....

[kannot]

1 hour ago, David B in Thailand said:

What brand of pipe joint do you recommend for blue pipe?

I said SCB  but I meant "SCG" it  comes in a  tin or TUBE its  mainly a WHITE  tin with blue/red  writing as  opposed to the more  common GREEN  tins....its  way thicker and has a higher  bursting  point, cant get it everywhere but its way  better...........the main things is sand the pipes then clean with cellulose  thinner BEFORE  gluing ( awkward ole git translation "melting") use a  toothbrush to apply not yer finger

Edited November 22, 2016 by kannot

[kannot]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

You're excused.....

No Im  gonna  make a point and  make you "eat your words glue"............ its "Pipe Cement"

[transam]

1 hour ago, kannot said:

No Im  gonna  make a point and  make you "eat your words glue"............ its "Pipe Cement"

Yep, two shovels sand and one cement...............

[Pdaz]

11 hours ago, kannot said:

Ive never  had a problem............... maybe as Ive always done my  own, its  really the simplest system to use the blue  pipes, youll need cellulose  thinner, fine wet n dry sandpaper, the STRONG  glue not the weak "Thai" green tins the blue/white scb tins or  tubes, sand pipe inside outside, wipe  with cellulose  thinner, apply glue  both pieces, push in hold for 10-15 seconds.

Just finished  some plumbing here, never had a leak in 4 years always use 13.5  pipe  nothing less

 

I'm still in awe of finding a Thai "workman" able to cut a round hole in a tile ! Who'da thunk it ?

[Anthony5]

6 hours ago, carlyai said:

Question: So you put your finger (or what ever) in the glue and smear it on the inside and outside of the part to be joined. Then you do the same again 3 more times? I'm interested as got my irrigation project coming up.





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That is indeed really interesting, because the glue isn't actually glue, but a cement that creates a chemical reaction .

 

So more than 1 layer would make no sense at all.

[kannot]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Yep, two shovels sand and one cement...............

That should  do it

[lopburi3]

Joint issues are normally due to poor fit rather than lack of cement (most plumbers dip in the round hole so there is more than enough).  But many do not push tight as they have not measured well and just let the cement hold together rather than push tight (and be away from the desired location).

 

And 40psi should not harm - but in our 40 year old home had to redo all plumbing after installed 60psi pump as had many of above type joints fail and in once case they had used garden hose to go around a cement beam inside a wall.  Installed pipes on outside of walls so easy access/inspection and have not had any issues since doing a decade ago.  

[kannot]

44 minutes ago, Pdaz said:

 

I'm still in awe of finding a Thai "workman" able to cut a round hole in a tile ! Who'da thunk it ?

Oh I forgot.......................I do all my own tiling too.....and  painting................block laying.............aircon installing......roofing.......plasterboarding ceilings ,metal framing etc.......concreting........ attached  concreting from few  months  back, side of lake.

When I came  here i thought "great" get some Thais in to work dead cheap................it never EVER worked out, they werent any good

Concrete was great fun, hand mixed in 40c+

Forgot.....all the electrics  too inc earth rods with 10mm cable

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by kannot

[carlyai]

Oh I forgot.......................I do all my own tiling too.....and  painting................block laying.............aircon installing......roofing.......plasterboarding ceilings ,metal framing etc.......concreting........ attached  concreting from few  months  back, side of lake.
When I came  here i thought "great" get some Thais in to work dead cheap................it never EVER worked out, they werent any good
Concrete was great fun, hand mixed in 40c+
 

Do you do your own glueing? [emoji4]

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[kannot]

8 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Joint issues are normally due to poor fit rather than lack of cement (most plumbers dip in the round hole so there is more than enough).  But many do not push tight as they have not measured well and just let the cement hold together rather than push tight (and be away from the desired location).

 

And 40psi should not harm - but in our 40 year old home had to redo all plumbing after installed 60psi pump as had many of above type joints fail and in once case they had used garden hose to go around a cement beam inside a wall.  Installed pipes on outside of walls so easy access/inspection and have not had any issues since doing a decade ago.  

"garden hose"     Quality pure quality!! not in the least bit surprised though........... my pipes all run about 55psi but can go a lot higher if i crank up the pressure switch although pressure valve in the system  will cut in at 5 bar about  72psi

[kannot]

3 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Do you do your own glueing?

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nah its cementing for that

[kannot]

59 minutes ago, Pdaz said:

 

I'm still in awe of finding a Thai "workman" able to cut a round hole in a tile ! Who'da thunk it ?

This square one took me a  bit of time

Edited November 22, 2016 by kannot