Govt approves 10 year visas for foreigners over 50

[digibum]

3 hours ago, Catoni said:

 

    We don't all have 100K Bhat a month coming in.  There are a lot of us who only have 65K a month retirement income.  I only have 76K Bhat a month coming in ... .   So I guess us poorer guys might have to pick up and move to Cambodia or India or Sri Lanka or the Philippines or somewhere else..  Or if we were coming back to Thailand soon after living there before.. ... we can forget it...         Bye...Bye Thailand.   It was nice...     

 

Yes, exactly.  You might have to move.  

 

Not sure why this is a difficult concept for people to grasp.  

 

Listen, if I was going to retire to Thailand on a fixed income, you gotta have a Plan B.  What if Thailand's economy blows up and inflation shoots through the roof?  What if Thailand's economy collapses and there are people rioting in the streets?  

 

It's still Thailand, folks.  Anything can happen and if you haven't at least given Cambodia or Vietnam or the Philippines some research, well, that's on you, brother.  

 

Seriously, if you moved to Thailand with no exit plan and were counting on Thailand to remain unchanged from when you moved there until you die, well, that's just foolish.  

[DavisH]

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

So just keep getting your annual extension.. 

 

This 10 year option is for those who can show that amount.. A perk for higher spenders.. Win win.. 

Where does it say the annual extension will still be available. Are you assuming this policy will be grandfathered?

[roo860]

You dare close it. A lot of details are emerging on the new visa. I am effected by this news. More help is needed googling for more detail. Please everyone help.

[emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

While this appears to be a new visa ie. for new applicants, and as Jingthing and others have suggested, is almost a clone of the Malaysia My Second Home programme, there are a couple of significant differences. MM2H is available to those under 50, although there are slightly different conditions for them as opposed to those 50+. However there is one significant difference to the proposed Thai one: "Applicants and their dependants must possess a medical insurance coverage from any insurance company that is valid in Malaysia. This may be waived for older applicants who are denied coverage because of their age". I'd have thought that the health insurance provision will be a barrier for some. However we may find insurance companies trying to find a way of cashing in  on (sorry, servicing) this market. I also wouldn't be surprised to find some informal money lenders making "retirement bonds" available especially as it's a fixed deposit

http://www.mm2h.com/mm2h-requirements-terms-and-conditions/

 

 

When pointing out differences.. Malaysia allows you 2 homes freehold and one luxury car import tax free.. 

 

Just sayin.. 

[fforest1]

24 minutes ago, digibum said:

 

I think the point you keep missing - REPEATEDLY - is that Thailand has the sovereign right to make up whatever requirements they deem fit.  You have zero rights.  None.  Nada.  It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or it's fair or unfair or whatever.  They have a right to put whatever criteria they want on visas.  

 

I have plenty of ideas about the cost of living in Bangkok since I recently lived there.  Unlike the people you know paying 8,000 baht a month rent, I was the kind of person Thailand is probably targeting to have living in Thailand since my monthly nut was more around $3,000+.  

 

I had a decent serviced apartment on Sukhumvit, ate out nearly every meal, and had plenty of money to spend on entertainment.  I wasn't rich.  I know people paying 80,000 baht a month just for rent.  

 

I also know people paying 8,000 a month to live in some apartment with no air con in slummy neighborhoods.  Coincidently, I also happened to know two people who took their own lives when they couldn't afford those 8,000 baht a month places.  

 

It's not about whether or not you CAN live on $500 or $1,000 or $1,500 a month in Thailand.  Thailand doesn't want those people and they've said as much over and over and over again.  How many press releases can the Thai government issue about "quality tourists" before it begins to sink in that Thailand is trying to appeal to more upscale travellers, whether they be expats living there or tourists traveling through?

 

The writing has been on the wall for a long time.  Even if they walk this change back and water it down, know that this is where they want to be headed.  It's coming.  

  

 

I would sure be sad if Thailand raised the financial requirements

so high YOU could not live here....

But they just might be looking for more quality expats than yourself..

To bad if you have lived here for decades and have family and property

thats just the way it goes... 

Edited November 23, 2016 by fforest1

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Chip Allen said:

A good many of us  DO understand the difference between a visa and an extension of stay. My situation is further complicated by the fact that I am planning to marry a woman from Bangkok who has a very good job with NGG and two daughters living in the area. My plans will be totally derailed if I have to move to Cambodia. My income will not slide up to 100 thousand baht merely because that is the new standard. I am 66 and had planned to stay here until they burn my bones. Obviously, some have other resources or the advantage of youth. I don't. Thus far, the only comments seem to be something along the lines of "you should have planned more carefully and put away more money".   I put away what I could AFFORD to put away. Not all of us are born with a silver spoon in their mouths and making huge salaries. That's why many of us retired in Thailand. Affordability is key.

 

 

So.. Marry her.. Stay on a marriage extension.. 

 

The drama is ?? 

[digibum]

Just now, alocacoc said:

 

Well, if a country looks for "quality tourists" then it should also be able to offer quality service, infrastructure, law enforcement, low corruption and so on. I guess, this kind of "quality tourists" which is Thailand are looking for, prefers other destinations. 

 

Exactly.  I think you think I'm going to argue with you on that but I fully agree.  Thailand is a dump compared to the places Thailand thinks its comparable to (Hong Kong, Singapore, etc).  

 

But you can't get in the way of people's delusions.  That's what they believe.  That informs the policy decisions they make.  That is what it is.  

 

Personally, I believe in voting with my wallet.  I had planned on visiting the wife's family this year but with all the mourning restrictions and everything else going on, I decided not to take the Thai government's advice to come but try not to be too festive.  Instead, I'm going somewhere where I'll dump 5x the amount of cash I was going to spend in Thailand and be as festive as I want.  

 

Similarly, it's highly doubtful Thailand will be getting my retirement money.  i had strongly considered retiring in Thailand but over the last 20 years I've been either coming to or living in Thailand, I've just seen it change too much and refuse to be treated the way Thailand treats people.  My wife might buy some property there and we'll visit or maybe even spend a few months a year there but I won't jump through Thailand's hoops to live there.  

[tonray]

36 minutes ago, digibum said:

 

Well, equities markets, specifically the S&P500, has returned an average of 10% over a long period of time (since 1928) so you would have to get unlucky and retire right in the middle of a bear market 100% invested in equities for this to be a substantial concern.  

 

Now, if I was offering financial planning advice, I would say as you get closer and closer to retirement you would reduce your exposure to equities and move into fixed income.  Given the current low interest rates, not sure I would do that but real estate is a good alternative.  In a self-directed IRA or 401K you can buy real estate and get at least a 10% cash on cash return (leveraged) regardless of price appreciation.  If you don't like owning real estate and landlording (though you can hire out property management - it just eats into your returns) you can buy real estate backed notes that get at least 10% cash on cash.  And if you wanted to put in the time and effort you could make hard money (bridge) loans to real estate developers, 12 month max term, 15% interest backed by real estate.  

 

Any more questions?   

Wow safe 10% returns for everyone.. Who would have imagined it was so easy.... 5555

[Chopperboy]

23 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

We're just doing in Thailand what countless people are doing in the UK.

 

Many foreigners in the UK are getting a a few grand (£) a month for free from the British Government, probably never having worked or contributed in any way at all.

 

The same in Germany, Sweden etc, etc.

 

So, why not!?

 

People of every social class in Britain are seriously hacked off about this too.

Just because the UK government is run by deep state puppets who couldn't care less about the indigenous population doesn't mean to say thats what Thailand's governing class are prepared to accept.

[rabas]

22 hours ago, bubba1 said:

How many times have you mentioned Malaysia? Maybe when you leave Trump will get you a job and you can save up and come back.

 

Unless you're the I'm rich don't care type, Trump may have just saved your future. The Trans Pacific Trade Pact TPP, which he promised to toss, is a massively complex system of agreements, many aimed at enhancing uber-wealthy corporations and government tax revenues. Not you.

 

While Clinton power friends are all for rob the poor to feed the rich, Trump said he is for working people. In other words, TPP is a very swampy thing, maybe one of the big snakes under the murky water.

 

Parts relating to big pharma, patent extensions, and medical issues could  bring US style pricing to reasonably priced medicines in Asia/Thailand. Ban low cost alternatives, price the rest through the roof, force people into medical insurance they cannot afford, then tax them to death.

 

If you don't mind, I like my 3 baht Clindamycin, thank you.

US? $3.00 per cap, 100+ baht.

 

I wonder if they were whiffing a little TPP when Thailand envisioned "We want old farangs with good medical insurance!".

 

[Peterw42]

35 minutes ago, Chopperboy said:

Why should a foreigner have a right to live here TAX free while a middle class Thai has to pay tax to cover the cost of government. I am not surprised Thais are fed up with the cheapskate ferang who come here and use the country as a cheap (to them) hangout, while contributing next to nothing.

 

Most of thailands tax base is VAT and everyone pays that including foreigners, 

[LivinLOS]

21 minutes ago, Chip Allen said:

To answer your question: Why should I pay tax on income already earned which I did not work in Thailand to earn? I pay sales taxes on everything I buy and contribute to the economy just as every other expat does. Bottom line: we live here and take nothing out of the economy and contribute to the sales tax base with our purchases, which are considerably  more than the average Thai. Does that make it a bit clearer for you???

 

 

While I generally agree with your perspective.. Most countries in the world tax its residents (and lets face it even on non imm visas many of us are tax resident) on all capital gains, on on residual and rental incomes, etc etc etc.. 

 

A thai in the same position would be taxes on capital gains, share dividends, rental yields etc.. 

 

Why not westerners tax resident here ?? 

[Andrew65]

6 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

While I generally agree with your perspective.. Most countries in the world tax its residents (and lets face it even on non imm visas many of us are tax resident) on all capital gains, on on residual and rental incomes, etc etc etc.. 

 

A thai in the same position would be taxes on capital gains, share dividends, rental yields etc.. 

 

Why not westerners tax resident here ?? 

What about non-domiciled uber-rich in he UK. I'm quite sure that they are exempt from many forms of taxation in the UK.

 

I think expats are technically liable for capital gains, share dividends, rental yields etc.

 

I paid a sizeable sum in tax on the sale of a property here this year.

 

I've worked in many countries around he World in the last 20 years, I haven't paid income tax in them, or in the UK. (I've never worked in Thailand).

Edited November 23, 2016 by Andrew65

[Chopperboy]

23 minutes ago, Chip Allen said:

To answer your question: Why should I pay tax on income already earned which I did not work in Thailand to earn? I pay sales taxes on everything I buy and contribute to the economy just as every other expat does. Bottom line: we live here and take nothing out of the economy and contribute to the sales tax base with our purchases, which are considerably  more than the average Thai. Does that make it a bit clearer for you???

Its a fallacy  that a tiny amount of tax you pay on VATable goods is anywhere near enough  to help support a country like Thailand. It has a large bureaucracy, security and infrastructure to support that ensures the well being of the country that people like you enjoy the benefits off everyday. Who cares if you pay tax in another country go live there. Some of us have paid taxes here for years, while watching retirees live tax free and enjoy exactly the same benefits as people who contribute to the Kingdom.

[Chopperboy]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

Most of thailands tax base is VAT and everyone pays that including foreigners, 

 

Its not, most revenue is from corporate tax and income tax.

[Spellforce]

"Seminar to support long-stay tourism"

To all sectors related to travel a long stay, scheduled on November 21, 2559, at the Amora Hotel Chiang Mai

[Spellforce]

" The target audience of the seminar, attendees included 120 people comprising government officials"

[digibum]

4 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

 

I would sure be sad if Thailand raised the financial requirements

so high YOU could not live here....

But they just might be looking for more of a quality expats than yourself..

To bad if you have lived here for decades and have family and property

thats just the way it goes... 

 

I know you're trying to make me feel bad but it's not going to work.  

 

First off, I would never, ever, ever own property in Thailand.  Maybe, maybe I would flip some condos or houses (in my wife's name) as investments but I would never tie up a substantial portion of my net worth in a country that openly shows contempt for foreigners.  

 

Second, right now the leading contender for where I want to retire has one of the highest costs of living in the world.  But when I'm ready to hang it up, if I don't have the money, guess what?  I'll have to pick somewhere else.  I don't consider it unfair that the kind of home I want costs $600K - $700K.  I don't think it's unfair to me that a meal in a restaurant costs 2x what I pay where I currently live.  I just know it is what it is and if I want that, that's what it costs.  And if I can't afford it, well, I can't afford it and I'll have to find something I can afford.  

 

And lastly, when I met my wife, I told her that I wouldn't be in Thailand forever.  She had to want to move or the relationship just wasn't going to work because I wasn't going to turn down a six-figure gig back in the US or Europe so I could teach English making less than what I would pay in taxes back in the US.  

 

I mean, that's just financially irresponsible for me to even consider that.  

 

But really it was up to her and what she wanted because if she wasn't prepared to leave Thailand, well, I was just being honest about where things were going.  I understand many Thais don't ever want to leave Thailand and to me that's right up there with wanting to have babies and your partner doesn't want any kids.  I respect their wishes but it's obviously not going to work out because one of us is going to be unhappy.  

 

Like I've said before, I'm not trying to be a jerk (some would say it just comes naturally for me), I respect the fact that some people are in a different financial situation than I am.  But man up.  Take responsibility for your life, bro.  Even if this doesn't go through today, the Thai government has just given you a pretty clear indication which way things are headed.  Get your stuff in order and figure out what you're going to do.  

 

Life isn't fair.  Life in Thailand is downright f'd up.  Get your Plan B ready.  Take responsibility for the direction of your own life instead of letting some idiot in the Thai government set the direction for you.  

 

 

[rabas]

2 minutes ago, Chopperboy said:

Its a fallacy  that a tiny amount of tax you pay on VATable goods is anywhere near enough  to help support a country like Thailand. It has a large bureaucracy, security and infrastructure to support that ensures the well being of the country that people like you enjoy the benefits off everyday. Who cares if you pay tax in another country go live there. Some of us have paid taxes here for years, while watching retirees live tax free and enjoy exactly the same benefits as people who contribute to the Kingdom.

 

Sorry, maybe I am missing something, really. But why would a retiree with no income (including Thai people) be expected to pay income tax?  Retirees do pay all applicable taxes, as far as I know.

[Andrew65]

4 minutes ago, digibum said:

 

I know you're trying to make me feel bad but it's not going to work.  

 

First off, I would never, ever, ever own property in Thailand.  Maybe, maybe I would flip some condos or houses (in my wife's name) as investments but I would never tie up a substantial portion of my net worth in a country that openly shows contempt for foreigners.  

 

Second, right now the leading contender for where I want to retire has one of the highest costs of living in the world.  But when I'm ready to hang it up, if I don't have the money, guess what?  I'll have to pick somewhere else.  I don't consider it unfair that the kind of home I want costs $600K - $700K.  I don't think it's unfair to me that a meal in a restaurant costs 2x what I pay where I currently live.  I just know it is what it is and if I want that, that's what it costs.  And if I can't afford it, well, I can't afford it and I'll have to find something I can afford.  

 

And lastly, when I met my wife, I told her that I wouldn't be in Thailand forever.  She had to want to move or the relationship just wasn't going to work because I wasn't going to turn down a six-figure gig back in the US or Europe so I could teach English making less than what I would pay in taxes back in the US.  

 

I mean, that's just financially irresponsible for me to even consider that.  

 

But really it was up to her and what she wanted because if she wasn't prepared to leave Thailand, well, I was just being honest about where things were going.  I understand many Thais don't ever want to leave Thailand and to me that's right up there with wanting to have babies and your partner doesn't want any kids.  I respect their wishes but it's obviously not going to work out because one of us is going to be unhappy.  

 

Like I've said before, I'm not trying to be a jerk (some would say it just comes naturally for me), I respect the fact that some people are in a different financial situation than I am.  But man up.  Take responsibility for your life, bro.  Even if this doesn't go through today, the Thai government has just given you a pretty clear indication which way things are headed.  Get your stuff in order and figure out what you're going to do.  

 

Life isn't fair.  Life in Thailand is downright f'd up.  Get your Plan B ready.  Take responsibility for the direction of your own life instead of letting some idiot in the Thai government set the direction for you.  

 

 

You'd never own a property in Thailand, but you would put a condo in your Thai wifes name??!!

[jonclark]

Sorry I just noticed that this is to promote medical tourism....so their asking sick people to get health insurance.

[Chopperboy]

9 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

Sorry, maybe I am missing something, really. But why would a retiree with no income (including Thai people) be expected to pay income tax?  Retirees do pay all applicable taxes, as far as I know.

Retirees living here should pay towards the countries running costs - simple as that. Why should a Thai business or Thai people pay so you can live here for free? The Tax or Fee should be annual and built into the cost of a retirement visa and I don't mean the current few thousand Baht it costs to renew.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Chopperboy

[sjaak327]

57 minutes ago, digibum said:

 

I think the point you keep missing - REPEATEDLY - is that Thailand has the sovereign right to make up whatever requirements they deem fit.  You have zero rights.  None.  Nada.  It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or it's fair or unfair or whatever.  They have a right to put whatever criteria they want on visas.  

 

I have plenty of ideas about the cost of living in Bangkok since I recently lived there.  Unlike the people you know paying 8,000 baht a month rent, I was the kind of person Thailand is probably targeting to have living in Thailand since my monthly nut was more around $3,000+.  

 

I had a decent serviced apartment on Sukhumvit, ate out nearly every meal, and had plenty of money to spend on entertainment.  I wasn't rich.  I know people paying 80,000 baht a month just for rent.  

 

I also know people paying 8,000 a month to live in some apartment with no air con in slummy neighborhoods.  Coincidently, I also happened to know two people who took their own lives when they couldn't afford those 8,000 baht a month places.  

 

It's not about whether or not you CAN live on $500 or $1,000 or $1,500 a month in Thailand.  Thailand doesn't want those people and they've said as much over and over and over again.  How many press releases can the Thai government issue about "quality tourists" before it begins to sink in that Thailand is trying to appeal to more upscale travellers, whether they be expats living there or tourists traveling through?

 

The writing has been on the wall for a long time.  Even if they walk this change back and water it down, know that this is where they want to be headed.  It's coming.  

  

Nowhere did I claim that those people pay 8000 a month for an apartment I claimed people that are on the minimum wage of 8000 baht still are able to afford an apartment in Bangkok, it's obvious such an apartment isn't anywhere near 8000 baht a month...

 

I am not missing the point that Thailand has the sovereign right to make up whatever requirement, they most certainly have that right. However I am fully entitled to believe that this would be a mistake on Thailand's part. In fact, let's call a spade a spade, the people Thailand seems to be targeting with this (Affluent Retired people was the term being used) will NOT consider Thailand. And the reasons are obvious, people with real money don't go retiring in a third world country, with rampant corruption, security issues, unstable political climate, lack of certain freedoms these people have taken for granted all of their lives.

 

They go elsewhere plain and simple.

 

Not sure how you seem to believe that apartments in Bangkok for 8000 baht a month wouldn't have air conditioning ? I know of many even right on Sukhumvit, in fact, I know of several that are considerably cheaper than the 8000 baht you quoted. As I said, I will be able to afford a nice one bedroom right in the city center and still have plenty to spare for all of the other necessities, for the current 65.000 requirements set forth. No shitty neighborhood either I might add.

 

If Thailand really wants to target "quality tourists" and "Affluent retired people", they better start fixing their country first. That's all I'm saying.. Again if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

 

Yes I agree Thailand has the right to set whatever requirements they deem fit, I have the right to criticise them for it, because I firmly believe those requirements are way over the top for the goods offered, plain and simple.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by sjaak327

[Peterw42]

13 minutes ago, Chopperboy said:

Its a fallacy  that a tiny amount of tax you pay on VATable goods is anywhere near enough  to help support a country like Thailand. It has a large bureaucracy, security and infrastructure to support that ensures the well being of the country that people like you enjoy the benefits off everyday. Who cares if you pay tax in another country go live there. Some of us have paid taxes here for years, while watching retirees live tax free and enjoy exactly the same benefits as people who contribute to the Kingdom.

 

For a Thai on average wages, VAT is higher than incometax, the thresholds are quiet high. A teacher on 300,000 a year pays 5% income tax and 10% VAT. 

[Moonmoon]

good news hope they still have this in 15 years.

[digibum]

24 minutes ago, tonray said:

Wow safe 10% returns for everyone.. Who would have imagined it was so easy.... 5555

 

It's not easy. But the income is mostly passive once you start making it.  

 

You do realize that most of the wealth in the world has been created through real estate, right?  Look at the Forbes list of richest people and see how many of them made their money in real estate.  

 

If you know how to buy property right, IMHO it's far safer than buying stock in Apple and hoping Tim Cook can sell a bunch of iPhones.  But knowing how to buy property right is the hard part.  

 

I'm not talking that No Money Down BS.  You need capital to work with.  But the returns are good if you can put in the time and effort into knowing a market intimately enough to know a good deal from a bad one.  

 

But then again, through passive investments I'm currently making more than double the amount everyone here is crying about plus I have capital I'm looking to put into more deals.  So you can laugh at me all you want.  I'm not the one worrying about being kicked out of Thailand.  

[Jingthing]

Just now, Moonmoon said:

good news hope they still have this in 15 years.

By then, it might be 10 million needed. 

[joeyg]

1 hour ago, puukao said:

I wrote on my visa application, "I want to save the world!!!!"  and all they cared about was money!!!!!

 

I came here because I had 100 baht to my name.....now they want me to have money???

 

If you are 50 (glad I'm not nearly that old).......you might live 25 more OK years.........

 

trust me, in 25-years, you are going to need to be SUPER RICH!!!!

 

so plan ahead!!!!!

 

if you have to go work at McD back home on the overnight shift, you must!!!

 

i am off for mango shake!!!  glad my last business sold for millions...

 

 

Wow a multi millionaire...

[sjaak327]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

I import self employed EU nationals from lower tax jurisdictions through the EU cross border rules.. 

 

Makes it trivial to undercut the competition and make major money very very easily. 

If you pay your workforce that kind of money, I fail to see how you could possibly undercut the competition let alone make major money. Again the average wage is the Netherlands is only about 2200 after taxes, and no, that's not for unskilled labor either.

[Chopperboy]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

 

For a Thai on average wages, VAT is higher than incometax, the thresholds are quiet high. A teacher on 300,000 a year pays 5% income tax and 10% VAT. 

For a start VAT is 7% not 10% and has been for years. Teachers are poorly paid so don't represent the average middle class income under which the tax is up to 30%. So answer me again, why should a Thai person or corporation pay tax so you can live here for free?