Retiring to Thailand - How to retain address in country I'm a citizen of?

[NancyL]

We've used USABox.com in Miami, FL as our only U.S. address for over eight years without a problem.  We don't own property in the U.S. and thus don't have a physical address there, anymore.  Our U.S. D.L.s have long since expired, but Hubby and I have TDLs and figure we can always get IDLs if we want to return to the U.S. and rent a car.  Although, we've heard the cost for insurance will be high since we're considered foreigners when we rent a car in the U.S. now.  

 

Of course, we set up the mail forwarding service before we left and have been using our credit union for decades.  It's the credit union that serves the headquarters of a Fortune 100 company and is used to its customers living and traveling globally.  No problems in telling them were "travelling" for an extended period.  We've had the same visa credit card with them also for decades and periodically they raise the credit limit without us asking, even though we pay off the balance monthly.  Every so often a charge is challenged, like when our U.K.-based health insurance charges our annual health insurance fee as a charge out of London when they think we're in Thailand.  

 

SSA uses our Thai address, but interestingly, was just fine in depositing Hubby's monthly check into the U.S. based credit union account.  I use on-line banking to transfer funds to Bangkok Bank periodically using ACH transfer.  This is a very good way for U.S. based people to transfer funds to Thailand.  Hubby's company pension is direct deposited to our joint Bangkok Bank account because the company doesn't have the same requirement as SSA that he go in person to BB each month to claim the pension in person.

 

It's been very helpful to have an internet-based phone service, Magic Jack, with a phone number with a Miami area code, just like our USABox address.  I always use that phone when I call the credit union or the credit card, etc and their automated system recognizes the incoming phone number as being the one associated with the account and that gets the call off to a good start.  We travel with the Magic Jack in case there's a problem and we need to call back to the U.S.

 

All this takes planning before you leave the U.S.  I doubt it can be done after you're here.  Also, it helped that we already had an established relationship with a good credit union that was used to customers who lived and worked overseas and has a good website.  Still, it's a small, customer-oriented credit union.  I think there are only six or eight women in their call center.  When I call, the phone is answered promptly by someone with a welcome Michigan accent, who says "Hi Nancy, how is the weather in Thailand today?"  No need to play games with them.

 

I only think our only worry about with this current arrangement is what's happened to our credit rating.  I understand that if we return to the U.S. and want to rent an apartment that the credit check is an important part of the screening process.  Recently, I tried to use one of those online services to check our credit rating and it was asking me questions I couldn't answer, like multiple choice questions of the model of the vehicle we financed in 1999.  (We had a DBA business then and financed several vehicles, including tractors, gosh I can't remember which was acquired in 1999, which in 2001, etc)  I flunked their screening and got kicked out of the website.  So, I let it drop and figured if we ever got serious about returning to the U.S., I'd call on the nice ladies at the customer service dept at the credit union and see what they advise.  

[CaptHaddock]

28 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

 

Will follow this advice.

 

Curious about the following - you guys are undoubtedly using your cc's that were issued in the USA or whatever country you're a citizen of.

 

Charges are put on the card weekly from Thailand, over the year and over many years.

 

Apparently this never signals to the cc company/financial institution that you do not reside in the country the cc has you listed as living in (and that you are residing in Thailand)?

 

 

 

Correct.  We use several of our US credit cards, those that do not charge a foreign transaction fee, weekly here in BKK.  So, the issuing bank can easily determine that we have been here for the past five years, if they are interested to do so.  However, they have not so far been interested in our physical location, although that could change at any time.

 

As more and more information of all kinds becomes available for evaluation by banks and governments, those entities will know more and more about us.  If they decide to take advantage of that data, the game will be up for us.  That's just one of the insecurities of expatting.

[NancyL]

I think it's a very bad idea to count on a friend or relative as being your "permanent" address.  People have a way of dying, becoming ill, getting angry with you, not following instructions properly or in general being unreliable.  I've known too many expats who have had problems with this type of relationship for handling their mail forwarding.  

 

It's fine if you plan to be over here for just a short time, but years and years -- no.  You should plan all this out in advance of coming.  This is a major move.  Hubby and I came over in 2006 and spent a month doing research.  This is one area where we learned what had to be done for long-term security.  Then we returned to the U.S. and got our life in order prior to retiring here in 2008.  

[NancyL]

6 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

Correct.  We use several of our US credit cards, those that do not charge a foreign transaction fee, weekly here in BKK.  So, the issuing bank can easily determine that we have been here for the past five years, if they are interested to do so.  However, they have not so far been interested in our physical location, although that could change at any time.

 

As more and more information of all kinds becomes available for evaluation by banks and governments, those entities will know more and more about us.  If they decide to take advantage of that data, the game will be up for us.  That's just one of the insecurities of expatting.

 

That's why it's a good idea to have a back-up credit card.  We have Amex, and use it just often enough that they know we're still alive.  We keep that card in the safe and don't carry it day-to-day.  Once my handbag was stolen (due to my own stupidity of leaving it in a shopping cart) and we had to wait for new Visa cards to arrive.  It was good to have that Amex card as a back-up.  

 

And it's imperative to have a local banking relationship, too, with at least 100,000 baht in that account.  It's amazing how many expats can't lay their hands on money quickly.  We've made short term loans multiple times in order for people to obtain medical treatment and once to bail someone out of jail.  People don't realize that the private hospitals won't start treatment -- won't even give basic painkillers -- unless money is on deposit.  

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

This is changing very quickly.

Nationwide International are closing shop.

 

If you do not tell the DVLC that your address has changed (even temporarily) they can hit you for 1,000 Quid fine. Similarly you are required to exchange your UK license for a foreign licence if you move to another country.

 

To renew a UK license if you do not have residence in the UK you have to lie on the application. That will come back to bite, they can access your NHS and passport records online instantaneously, I have just gone through the process but held off pulling the trigger.

 

There are more than a few guys collecting the UK pension in Thailand but not telling the UK government about the change of address. This will be stopped as some point.

 

I do not expect it to be possible to lie about where you are physically living within the next decade. There will be an international inter-government agreement to pass all the immigration data around. Your rights to privacy will be eroded. 

 

 

 

What is changing ??   

As l said packed up UK Nationwide B society bank when they started ATM charges.

 

As for DVLC emailed them and posted UK DL back when l got my Thai 5 year licence after 1 year not as it is now 2 years, UK DL valid for only 90 days in Thailand,  Thai 5 year valid for 1 year UK.

 

Why lie don't want to renew UK DL no need for it.

 

No reason to not tell IPC my Thailand address and what Thai bank to pay pension to,  anything else is fraud.

 

Again your last paragraph is not any of my concern.  

 

 

 

[NanLaew]

31 minutes ago, chilli42 said:

You can also get a SD drivers licence.

I don't see that as being part of their service but you can register your RV there.

[55Jay]

Well, maybe Trump, a jet setter who maintains businesses overseas, will be more open to groups like American Citizens Abroad.  The legislation, while having (mostly) good intentions, has resulted in unintended consequences and unfair, if not discriminatory, practices.  Reminded of a term we used in the military called "Mission Creep".  We need a sanity check, and a tweak on how financial institutions interpret and comply.

 

At the moment, I, Schwab Bank & Brokerage, Pershing, and Capital One, are living a lie.  My independant FA knows everything of course, and he's asked me to not make overt references on email about living in Thailand or intended vacation trips to the US because of audits.  They check the box that they "know me", but if the US Gov ever asked them to provide info and followed up, they would wind up looking non-compliant and extremely obtuse.  Even a cursory look at my accounts exhibits years worth of daily life type transactions all in Thailand.  Every month, I log in on a Thai IP address, ACH funds to a Thai bank in New York that has no retail outlets in the US.  If I do call (I try not to), it's via Skype, never from a US cell phone or landline of record at the US physical address.  My tax returns and FBARs have a Thailand address.  Filled out W9 IRS Forms here for my Thai banks.   State Dept. knows I'm here.   Defense Finance and Accounting has a Thai address.  A quick call to my 2 US credit unions in Virginia and Texas would reveal a Thai mailing address; which they, BTW, have no problem with.  It's pretty sad state of affairs actually.

 

Sure would be nice to come out of the closet and live openly.  I'm soooo oppressed.

[gk10002000]

Find someplace anyplace with a very very cheap rent and rent a room in a house.  In Florida you could find a place for 200  month, sign a lease, etc.  Get your cell phone bill online of course but change  your address to that new place, change your AAA cheap yearly membership to that address etc.  This way you will have if needed bills you can print out with your name and address on them.  Is this method free?  no, but it can be very convenient and will pass most legal muster.  Pay the people a $20 every time they send you your mail every other month.  Hand shake with the owners and cross your fingers. 

 

Frankly, once I finish my engineering stuff and semimretirea, I plan to offer such a service.  The spaces I will rent will be small, but livable should anybody ask.  It is none of my business how often my housemates come and go.  As long as the renters store something in the house clearly identified as theirs, I things will be straight up.  I will have a sleeping space for each person, granted it might be a futon or air mattress and there may be several in each room,  but barring any local reporting requirements that are rare in the USA, things should be legal.  The recent spaexpansion t of airbnb has caused some cities here in the USA to try and pass some laws and resident and transient reporting laws, but it is still the exception to the rul

 

[Kwasaki]

20 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Are you sure?

Assuming it still takes three years before the Thais issue a five year licence, that would mean, for example, that the Brits, if they comply with the UK law, would not be able to obtain an IDP for three years.

 

Don't get what your on about unless Thai ruling has changed the new Provisional Thai DL is 2 years now it's common knowledge that a Brit with a full UK DL does not require a IDP,  the UK licence is valid up to 90 days in Thailand.

A Brit coming Thailand should get a Thai DL in any case if they intend driving in Thailand always the best thing to do.

 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, JimmyJ said:

Charges are put on the card weekly from Thailand, over the year and over many years.

 

Apparently this never signals to the cc company/financial institution that you do not reside in the country the cc has you listed as living in (and that you are residing in Thailand)?

 

Ssshhh... I am sure that there are wonks at the IRS, HMCR and the like who will get the legislation passed to enable this snoop.

[TechnikaIII]

Similar situation, but from Australia. In the absence of responsible and willing family, I use a friend's address. This may become a problem once he is on a senior's pension, because they may see my name at the same address and reduce both pensions as though we are cohabitants.  tick-tock tick-tock tick-tock ..... 

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

... The spaces I will rent will be small, but livable should anybody ask.  It is none of my business how often my housemates come and go.  As long as the renters store something in the house clearly identified as theirs, I things will be straight up.  I will have a sleeping space for each person, granted it might be a futon or air mattress and there may be several in each room,  but barring any local reporting requirements that are rare in the USA, things should be legal. ...

And the fire extinguishers... don't forget the fire extinguishers. Pretty sure the local Fire department inspectors will want to see those for a residential business.

[CaptHaddock]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Ssshhh... I am sure that there are wonks at the IRS, HMCR and the like who will get the legislation passed to enable this snoop.

 

The banks themselves don't care just as they don't really care if you make your money in the drug trade.  The government makes them care.  We can expect the government to make them care more after the next 9/11 type incident. 

 

[gk10002000]

8 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

And the fire extinguishers... don't forget the fire extinguishers. Pretty sure the local Fire department inspectors will want to see those for a residential business.

Oh yeah.  There will be fire extinguishes, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors etc.  As far as it being a business, well I hadn't decided on that yet.  For liability reasons, known and unknown I probably would do it as a LLC, but that brings other issues into play, and might be an issue going from just renting out rooms on the side to running a business in a residential area.  I will see how things play out in the next few years.  But it seems like such a service is needed.  Maybe I will just get a really cheap hotel, clean it up and make it darn simple.  Small tiny shared rooms.  All concrete and cinder block like my college dorm room was.  Run the place out of rural Texas or Florida or some other tax free state.   Just thinking out loud

[LannaGuy]

2 hours ago, cheechee said:

There are some Mail Box places that give you an address that looks like the real thing. Instead of a PO Box they'll use an Apt. No.

I don't do it but have friends who do.

 

Yes but banks require utility bills in the UK?  I am looking to set up a UK address for cards etc. but Nat West demands utility bills with my name on them

 

any way round this???

[NanLaew]

32 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

The banks themselves don't care just as they don't really care if you make your money in the drug trade.  The government makes them care.  We can expect the government to make them care more after the next 9/11 type incident. 

 

Tell me about it! The Department of Homeland paranoia slipped legislation through around 1994/5 that enabled banks to link non-resident (and thus non-taxable) bank accounts with the residential and taxable ones. No official notice in writing about it was ever received, just a couple of suddenly locked and inaccessible bank accounts and calling a 1-800 number that advised me to personally present myself at the nearest branch with acceptable photo ID.

[Heng]

Almost all mail forwarding businesses will show up as ineligible addresses.   It's only a matter of time...  it only takes a simple software filter to notice when X00 or more of a banks customers live in the same place but none of them actually log in from an IP in that area.   

 

Now, with a lot of banks you can use a mail forwarding business as an address as long as you have a 'real world' address as well.   I have a house and condo in Texas, but both are rented out (and I don't know either of my tenants well enough to have them manage my mail), so I use a mail forwarder as my 'current' address with Fidelity, Cap One, BONY, and others.... but my 'primary' address is listed as my house.   My replacement ATM cards and bank correspondence goes to my current address (and I just have them forward it all to me in Thailand 2-3 times a year).   I used to have it set up with my mail forwarding address as my only address, but eventually I got letters saying that wasn't allowed and I had 90 days to add a real world address to my account.

 

Now for those of you who don't own property...  I would assume that you could still use the 'friend's address' setup with the method above.   I'd advise anyone who is able though... hold onto your US property and pay your property taxes on time.   There are far worse plan B's than a US public school education for your children or nephews/nieces.  

 

:-)

[JimGant]

Quote

So far, using a mail forwarder's address in the US doesn't matter, except in the crucial case of opening a new bank or brokerage account.  For that purpose you will need a genuine residence address.  For all other purposes including the IRS, but not the SSA, the mail forwarder's address is fine and causes no problems to date.  That could change.

I just updated my Social Security info with my SS online account. I provided my new mailing address (and I supplied my mail forwarding address), and they had a box alongside to check that said, "This is my physical address." I didn't check it, and they didn't ask for my physical address. My check is deposited into my US checking account. Signed in with a VPN from Houston, same city as my mail forwarder (USA2ME). And I originally filed for SS from the States, not abroad.

 

Don't know the long term effect of that -- they have no way of knowing whether or not I'm an expat -- or an RV cowboy. So, no reason to expect any added surveillance of my existence -- although I recall reading that some expats have some extra paperwork to periodically fill out to substantiate that they're still alive. Maybe that unchecked box will eventually solicit what my physical address is..... We'll see.

[sledpull]

USA2ME in Houston is very good! Texas is an income free state also. Using my sister's mailing address prior to USA2ME, the state she lived in wanted me to pay taxes on my retirement income for using her mailing address as a mail forward only!

[Phaeton]

Good question. And no easy answer. Some of my banks/credit cards, where I have had no problem with a mail box place that looks like a residence for years, flagged me and caused problems. Made me identify a real residential address. 

 

i don't think they know I'm out of the country. Just new rules etc. I have a friend collecting my mail. But I feel he will run out of patience as the months become years. Hard to trust anyone else enough honestly. 

 

Obviously the more you can make

paperless the better. 

[dbrenn]

Australia has the same setup - there is a database of residential addresses that is being used more and more. My trusty mail drop (looks just like a residential address) is rejected in most cases now. There are two ways around this:

 

1) Redirect mail from my last residential address to my mail drop, then get my mail drop to periodically forward mail to my Thai address

2) Redirect mail from my last residential address to my Thai address - more expensive but eliminates that mail drop

 

Not sure if the US has a service equivalent to this one:

 

https://auspost.com.au/parcels-mail/manage-your-mail/redirect-hold-mail/redirect-mail

 

[GinBoy2]

11 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

Do you begin using  your expat Thai address that you have moved to for all of your native country bank accounts, credit cards, drivers license (don't know if this is possible), etc.?

 

Don't know what effect that would have on my currently top tier credit with my USA credit cards, etc.

This topic comes up relatively often. read this..

 

A lot depends if you are really looking to hedge your bets and keep a real home base or just a mail forwarding service.

 

The law pretty much ensures that all the mail forwarders get flagged, and you may well be able to use Apt, or #, but USPS assign's you a PMB #. Now that not necessarily a problem based on the State.

 

I'm a South Dakotan, and residency is pretty easy, it's the permanent RV'ers State of choice.

 

To reiterate what others have said, be careful maintaining a 'residency' in a State with a state tax, Cali is the worst, and if for whatever reason you returned, those missing years will be a problem.

 

All the info you need is here:

 

http://www.americas-mailbox.com/

 

 

[KenKadz]

You might want to take a look at U.S. Global Mail located in Houston, TX. on the internet.

It takes a little effort, (forms and application to set up) an account which is officially authorized by the U.S. Postmaster's Office.

Suggest you set up an account before leaving the U.S.

Fees are reasonable and service has been good for five years now.

[Dan5]

Been here for many years. Still have USA bank accounts credit cards, etc, but no physical address there. Never been a problem. And I know people who have started businesses back there without having to go back or have a real address there. . Actually that's pretty common these days. Have a Thai driver's license. Don't see why I couldn't use that if I visited the USA. Though I don't know. Haven't been back there and have no plans to visit there. But I really don't think you have anything  to worry about.

[durian explorer]

For those who use a commercial virtual address service, have you ever had to change services or otherwise terminate their service?  If so, did it go smoothly?  The last time I researched this, a few months ago (including with earthclassmail if I remember correctly) there were horror stories of companies refusing to let go of the customer, and they were legally entitled to wait 6 months. Here is one set of reviews: https://www.yelp.com.sg/biz/earth-class-mail-san-francisco-2 (there are also complaints of deceptive and excessive pricing); but there were more that I no longer have links for.

 

Also, for the person who uses his/her AmEx card as a backup credit card, do most places you go to accept AmEx?  My impression was that many or most don't.

 

[skatewash]

23 minutes ago, Keith Bennett said:

For those who use a commercial virtual address service, have you ever had to change services or otherwise terminate their service?  If so, did it go smoothly?  The last time I researched this, a few months ago (including with earthclassmail if I remember correctly) there were horror stories of companies refusing to let go of the customer, and they were legally entitled to wait 6 months. Here is one set of reviews: https://www.yelp.com.sg/biz/earth-class-mail-san-francisco-2 (there are also complaints of deceptive and excessive pricing); but there were more that I no longer have links for.

 

 

No, I'm still with the same commercial virtual address service I started with 4 years ago.  The bad reviews of Earth Class did raise some concern, though.  Especially, this one:
 

Quote

...But more importantly, keep in mind that canceling is even more sketchy. So, since some [sic] much mail goes to their SF address, the USPS won't allow you to file a change of address form. If you cancel, and you continue to get mail at your Earth Class Mail address, Earth Class Mail legally has to hold your mail for 6 months. However, they won't actually give it to you unless you pay them.

 
It would be a bit of a pain to notify all your correspondents about a new address should you ever switch services and are unable to make use of the USPS change of address form.  I hope my service continues without problem and I guess I will have to face any problem when it comes.  It sounds like my plan is at least cheaper  than Earth Class Mail.  I get a certain number of free scans per month (envelope and contents) which I have never needed to exceed and since I don't do much of any mail forwarding my costs are basically fixed per month, paid annually.  Nonetheless, it is something to be aware of since I imagine USPS won't allow change of address forms for any of them, not just Earth Class Mail.

[JimGant]

Quote

It would be a bit of a pain to notify all your correspondents about a new address should you ever switch services and are unable to make use of the USPS change of address form.

 

The USPS (and anyone else who cares to know) knows who the CMRAs are. And this is the letter you'll get when you submit a change of address to a CMRA. The following was when I changed address to the USA2ME mail forwarding operation:

 

Quote

POSTMASTER
UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
8409 LEE HWV
MERRIFIELD VA 22081-0002
Dear Postal Customer:

Recently, you submitted a change-of-address order to the United States Postal Service to forward
your mail to a Private Mail Box at a Commercial Mail Receiving Agency (CMRA) address. We have
received your change-of-address order--and have entered it into our mail forwarding system. Your
mail will be forwarded, as defined on the PS Form 1583.
•   PS Form 1583 cannot be modified. If any information on the form changes, you must file a new
form with the CMRA.

 

•   When your relationship with the CMRA terminates, neither you nor the CMRA can file a change­
of-address order with the Post Office™ to forward your mail. It is the sole responsibility of the
CMRA to forward your mail to another address for up to six months.

 

If this order Is temporary, delivery  will resume to the original address when the
change-of-address expires, or is cancelled.

 

Thank you for the opportunity to address this matter with you. We also appreciate your efforts to
notify your correspondents  of your new address. If you have any questions or need additional
information about your change-of-address order or mail forwarding, please email [email protected] or
call 1-800- ASK-USPS (1-800-275-8777).
Sincerely,

 

 

So, pick your mail forwarder carefully, 'cause it gets convoluted if you later decide you picked the wrong one.

 

 

[JimmyJ]

17 hours ago, NancyL said:

I think it's a very bad idea to count on a friend or relative as being your "permanent" address.  People have a way of dying, becoming ill, getting angry with you, not following instructions properly or in general being unreliable.  I've known too many expats who have had problems with this type of relationship for handling their mail forwarding.  

 

It's fine if you plan to be over here for just a short time, but years and years -- no. 

 

Makes sense, but can go the other way also -

 

My current mail drop is the 2nd one I've used in the city I currently reside in.

 

The first one went out of business and closed.

 

Even worse, it happened with no warning, and the owner eloped with all funds that he'd received for payments and mail forwarding deposits, which were never returned.

 

Closing without warning and refunds is unusual since mail drops are licensed or approved thru the USPS, but it happened.

 

(The local USPS was cooperative and contrary to their normal policy let our mail be forwarded and held at the local USPS for a month or so till we could get new forwarding addresses).

 

[JimmyJ]

17 hours ago, NancyL said:

 

People don't realize that the private hospitals won't start treatment -- won't even give basic painkillers -- unless money is on deposit.  

 

A friend who lives in Thailand had a heart attack.

He lay on a bench in the nearest hospital while the nurses stood by and played "Candy Crush" on their phones until his wife could get the cash together.

[JimmyJ]

17 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I don't see that as being part of their service but you can register your RV there.

 

They told me that showing the PMB receipt gets a SD DL (although the DL will show "PMB" as part ot the address).