UN Security Council demands end to Israeli settlements

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.  

 

Please quote only 3 lines and a link.  

 

Please stay on the topic of this thread.  

[Morch]

On 12/31/2016 at 6:31 AM, canthai55 said:

Hyperbole - not. If you are unable to see the Hypocrisy in the actions of Israel then your own grasp of the situation is flawed. As are all arguments defending their actions. 

 

Claiming that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians "exactly" what others did to them is pure hyperbole. If you are unable to see it, back to your history books. The Israeli government's hypocrisy and other faults can be pointed out without resorting to such claims. If you'll find a post by me which defends the Israeli illegal settlement effort, consider yourself a winner of a cookie. If, however, this was a wider statement including all Israeli government actions whatsoever, then no cookie is offered - obviously not all relevant actions are flawed.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/30/2016 at 6:34 AM, Morch said:

 

The illegal settlements themselves do not provide much by way of security benefits. If the argument was about control of territory, it wouldn't be a whole lot stronger, but at least with some merit. Israel was not "indefensible" up to 1967, and no agreement talks about precisely 1967 borders.

 

Furthermore, why does the "Christian perspective" (if this article even speaks for all Christians) matter?

As I understand it, the Christian perspective is that Israel is essential to bring about Armaggedon and the return of Christ as ruler of all the world. That is because they believe in the fairy story as portrayed in Revelations.

Therefore, the Christians in the ruling elites see it as essential to preserve Israel.

 

It's not my view, so don't attack me over it.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/30/2016 at 6:39 AM, Morch said:

 

There aren't going to be any effective sanctions anytime soon. Got something to do with the US president you keep busy defending, with similar trends in the West and the lack of enthusiasm by other major players (Russia, PRC).

 

The effect of sanctions on the situation in South Africa is debated, and other than being a worn talking point the term does not apply at this time. 

Ah yes, I can't support Trump over his Israel policy, but then there was always going to be something.

Nothing in life is ever 100%.

BTW, he isn't president.

 

If Israel annexed the west bank, but imposed apartheid or ethnic cleansing, then with or without the UN, most of the world's citizens would impose sanctions on Israel, even if only by replicating the anti south Africa protests before the US came on board officially. 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I understand it, the Christian perspective is that Israel is essential to bring about Armaggedon and the return of Christ as ruler of all the world. That is because they believe in the fairy story as portrayed in Revelations.

Therefore, the Christians in the ruling elites see it as essential to preserve Israel.

 

It's not my view, so don't attack me over it.

 

 

This may represent how some Christians see it, doubt all are on board with taking things literally. Still doesn't make it any more relevant to the topic.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah yes, I can't support Trump over his Israel policy, but then there was always going to be something.

Nothing in life is ever 100%.

BTW, he isn't president.

 

If Israel annexed the west bank, but imposed apartheid or ethnic cleansing, then with or without the UN, most of the world's citizens would impose sanctions on Israel, even if only by replicating the anti south Africa protests before the US came on board officially. 

 

Nothing in life is certain, and yet a bunch of posters treating Israel's possible future actions, and possible international reactions as fait accompli.

 

As said, I don't think that there's public support in Israel for any drastic moves, and therefore, not likely that things will radically change. We could witness a further gradual degradation of the situation, aided by Trump's supposed support emboldening right wing forces in Israel. IMO, though, it may escalate international reactions, but maybe not to the degree some fantasize about.

[Jingthing]

Yeah the "dream" is hordes of refugee Jews just like the good old days ...

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[Kiwiken]

Being anti Israel settlements on the West Bank or in Jerusalem does not mean People are anti Israel or anti Jewish. To me the issues are mutually exclusive. One people using their overwhelming Military power to negate the rights of others is wrong no matter what peoples. It is that israel is an educated modern state that purports to be Democratic that leads there to be a greater criticism. The West Bank and Gaza strip are supposed to be a Palestinian Homeland, Jerusalem is supposed to be a demilitarised UN administered zone but israel controls these by Military conquest. The Prowess of the Israeli Military is obvious in the Face of daunting Odds. However it is not winning Battles that secures the future. It is how One negotiates the peace. No matter how difficult the task. Militants on both sides need to cease and desist. And the Doves negotiate a fair and lasting peace. It will not be simple but all things are possible.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Being anti Israel settlements on the West Bank or in Jerusalem does not mean People are anti Israel or anti Jewish. To me the issues are mutually exclusive. One people using their overwhelming Military power to negate the rights of others is wrong no matter what peoples. It is that israel is an educated modern state that purports to be Democratic that leads there to be a greater criticism. The West Bank and Gaza strip are supposed to be a Palestinian Homeland, Jerusalem is supposed to be a demilitarised UN administered zone but israel controls these by Military conquest. The Prowess of the Israeli Military is obvious in the Face of daunting Odds. However it is not winning Battles that secures the future. It is how One negotiates the peace. No matter how difficult the task. Militants on both sides need to cease and desist. And the Doves negotiate a fair and lasting peace. It will not be simple but all things are possible.

 

Being anti Israel settlements on the West Bank or in Jerusalem does not mean People are anti Israel or anti Jewish. To me the issues are mutually exclusive.

 

It may be mutually exclusive for some, it certainly isn't mutually exclusive for all. The latter would be true of many posters regularly partaking in these "discussions".

 

What you posted is not incorrect, it simply ignores the other side of the equation (namely, the Palestinians). There is no way for this conflict to be resolved by unilateral actions or without both sides being held accountable. Holding Israel to the high standards of Western ideals, while disregarding the fact that it does not exist nor operate under the same conditions, is somewhat tenuous. Applying these high standards while pretty much ignoring the Palestinian side's share of commitment and responsibility, is disingenuous.

[Srikcir]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

Holding Israel to the high standards of Western ideals

Or to the lower standards of the UN to which Israel allegedly subscribed with its UN membership.

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Or to the lower standards of the UN to which Israel allegedly subscribed with its UN membership.

 

Quoting half a line out of context is rather low.

 

Quote

...while disregarding the fact that it does not exist nor operate under the same conditions, is somewhat tenuous. Applying these high standards while pretty much ignoring the Palestinian side's share of commitment and responsibility, is disingenuous.

 

For that matter, posters may wish to make up their mind on whether Palestine is a state or not - seems to be either, depending on which claim is made. If it is, then similar requirements ought to be applied.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Morch

[Srikcir]

52 minutes ago, Morch said:

Quoting half a line out of context is rather low.

Then you understand my point - the UN bar for acceptable international conduct is particularly low.

[yardrunner]

56 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Then you understand my point - the UN bar for acceptable international conduct is particularly low.

and Israel is unable to reach that bar

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, yardrunner said:

and Israel is unable to reach that bar

Even if that is true, why the unbalanced obsession of the U.N. to go after Israel when many other nations do much worse with very little U.N. pushback? Hmmm. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

Then you understand my point - the UN bar for acceptable international conduct is particularly low.

 

No. That would be you continuing to twist my words.

[Srikcir]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Even if that is true, why the unbalanced obsession of the U.N. to go after Israel when many other nations do much worse with very little U.N. pushback? Hmmm. 

Certainly a topic for a comprehensive PhD-style dissertation.

I find this article "Why this obsession with Israel and the Palestininas," by Robert Fowke that answers the question (albeit from his personal experience with many others pro and con that will surely counterbalance the article) as an example of insight necessary for meaningful analysis: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jun/22/obsession-israel-palestinians-conflict

A notable excerpt: " One reason why Israel is singled out for so much attention is because its supporters are so very vociferous, pushing their agenda at every opportunity." And one could add ... 'and its detractors .'

 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Certainly a topic for a comprehensive PhD-style dissertation.

I find this article "Why this obsession with Israel and the Palestininas," by Robert Fowke that answers the question (albeit from his personal experience with many others pro and con that will surely counterbalance the article) as an example of insight necessary for meaningful analysis: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jun/22/obsession-israel-palestinians-conflict

A notable excerpt: " One reason why Israel is singled out for so much attention is because its supporters are so very vociferous, pushing their agenda at every opportunity." And one could add ... 'and its detractors .'

 

 

As you say, it's one man's explanation (or excuse, depending how seriously you take his argumentation). It does apply all that much to the level of anti-Israeli bias evident in the UN.