Pearl Harbor: What happened?

[Berkshire]

20 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

There is documented proof that Roosevelt was warned of a possible attack on Pear Harbour three days before the event. While interesting, the movement of US warships in and out of the harbour is less germane than the failure of the US intelligence community, in view of the heads-up, to recognise the threat posed by the Japanese carrier fleet.

 

One is struck by the parallel between the events of 1941 and the events half a century later when despite prior warnings the US airforce proved powerless to prevent attacks on Twin Towers and other targets.

 

(Yes, I know - I'm just another of those crazy conspiracy theorists).

 

I couldn't help but think that if Pearl Harbor had happened today, conspiracy theorists would be out in force to suggest that it never happened...or that the CIA was behind it. 

[rabas]

3 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

 

I couldn't help but think that if Pearl Harbor had happened today, conspiracy theorists would be out in force to suggest that it never happened...or that the CIA was behind it. 

Bush

[JAG]

13 hours ago, Prbkk said:

 

Powerful forces in the Democrats did everything they could to stop entry to the European theatre of war: mostly of Irish heritage and for reasons that are well-understood.

One of the most influential of these, one Joseph Kennedy,  was the ambassador to the UK. He spent much of 1940 reporting the imminent collapse of the UK, not without relish!

[JAG]

4 minutes ago, rabas said:

Bush

I'm pretty certain he wasn't involved at Pearl Harbor! 

[maewang99]

"Roosevelt was warned ahead of time" right.... ummm or maybe something else is the way it was. maybe. we don't know... yet... that I ****do**** know.

just dare listen to the Chomsky Q&A on "Just War' that he gave on invitation to the cadet corps at West Point... when he talks about ****Pearl Harbor****.

we were building bombers specifically designed to fire bomb civilians in Japanese cities and told them so in no uncertain terms well before Pearl Harbor.  and we were still telling them that stuff... just not publicly  (jeeezzz what a mystery that is to some folks... many folks )... we were still telling them a few minutes before the "surprise" attack occurred.

this is how Ian Bremmer is able to make a very good living.... and why rants about Trump or Pearl Harbor.... are nonsense on top of nonsense.

stories to tell ourselves. every culture does this. always has. just make sure you know that they are just stories. in today's world it is amoung the biggest differences between the "really haves" and the "general population" [Bill Gates way of putting it when he talks about the C topic]... not just the name of the school they attended.
 

Edited December 28, 2016 by maewang99

[yardrunner]

14 hours ago, Prbkk said:

 

Powerful forces in the Democrats did everything they could to stop entry to the European theatre of war: mostly of Irish heritage and for reasons that are well-understood.

Was that why the Irish regiments in the UK had no problem recruiting in WW 1 and there were many volunteers for for the British forces from the Irish republic in    WW 2

[moonray]

10 hours ago, Basil B said:

I think the key word here is intelligence...

 

And the lack of it...

Like only running radar during daylight hours, sending urgent "intelligence" telegrams by post... 

They had warning from radar,it had been dismissed.They should send reconesance

aircraft to investigate the blip and raise alarm in time.Total <deleted>- up.Same as 9/11.

[Berkshire]

26 minutes ago, moonray said:

They had warning from radar,it had been dismissed.They should send reconesance

aircraft to investigate the blip and raise alarm in time.Total <deleted>- up.Same as 9/11.

 

Or maybe it was not considered within the realm of possibility at the time because something as brazen as that had never happened before.  Same with 9/11.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, maewang99 said:

"Roosevelt was warned ahead of time" right.... ummm or maybe something else is the way it was. maybe. we don't know... yet... that I ****do**** know.

just dare listen to the Chomsky Q&A on "Just War' that he gave on invitation to the cadet corps at West Point... when he talks about ****Pearl Harbor****.

we were building bombers specifically designed to fire bomb civilians in Japanese cities and told them so in no uncertain terms well before Pearl Harbor.  and we were still telling them that stuff... just not publicly  (jeeezzz what a mystery that is to some folks... many folks )... we were still telling them a few minutes before the "surprise" attack occurred.

this is how Ian Bremmer is able to make a very good living.... and why rants about Trump or Pearl Harbor.... are nonsense on top of nonsense.

stories to tell ourselves. every culture does this. always has. just make sure you know that they are just stories. in today's world it is amoung the biggest differences between the "really haves" and the "general population" [Bill Gates way of putting it when he talks about the C topic]... not just the name of the school they attended.
 

 

I agree on some parts, the world was already at war and the US was obviously aware and considering options and plans. But I doubt the line from a peace activist that we were obsessed with firebombing Japanese civilians, it sounds like a sound bite  to me.

 

But, let us return to yesteryear! Kemosabe, what were they saying  then?

 

This is  the

 

UNITED STATES STRATEGIC BOMBING SURVEY

SUMMARY REPORT

(Pacific War)

 

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm

 

which includes a summary of US prewar planning and position. They had their hands full without worrying about fire bombing anyone, but maybe you have some proof. I do not doubt the US would try to deter Japan. London was firebombed by the Germans as early as 1940.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by rabas

[elgordo38]

3 hours ago, billmichael said:

 

 I took the time to read and found this near the very end as part of a conclusion:

" And finally, it is also clear that the carriers, instead of being wrapped in cotton and stashed away in a box like fragile Christmas ornaments, were being used as warships with orders to seek, locate and destroy. "

 

My question would be why "...seek, locate and destroy." at a time when we had not yet declared war?

 

It is almost pointless to discuss this now.  What causes me pain is the thought of so many young men from both sides at the bottom of the seas.  Boys who never got to grow up.  What a sad day it was and is.

 

So many questions unanswered from a long gone government that I would not have trusted to tell the truth anyways. 

[elgordo38]

22 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The Japanese attacked because they feared strangulation by the American Government's policy of denying essential resources  such as steel and oil and felt threatened by Russia and China. Japan felt it must go to war with the US and tried to catch the American Fleet in Pearl Harbor. The Aircraft carriers were not there and they knew they had made a grave error.America indeed did awake and carved out the greatest call to arms and armament industry in the World. My father and his brother enlisted in the Marine Corps and Navy and were sent to some of the worst battles in the Pacific. My mother worked 12 hours per day in an aircraft factory. America was united as never before.

The Americans and British were allies in the War and are still the same today. America was supplying armaments to the British in the 30's and 40's and of course the Americans and British planned the D day invasion together. There are some Brits and also Americans who will claim that neither side needed the other but the majority of people on both sides knew that the war could not have been won without the skills of either side.  Britain had superior intelligence and a professional well trained military while America had superior numbers and equipment as well as the potential for all the armaments needed to win. The German Army at the time was massive and capable and had its own massive armament industry- of course- fuelled by 'slave' labor.

The British suffered greatly during the war years  with 28,000 killed and another 25,000 wounded during the German Blitz on London and other areas. That is a huge number compared to their population.  In addition the total UK deaths from the war (which includes British colonies) is a staggering 380,000 and the Americans lost over 400,000 dead.  

Absolute madness in the World at that time and it appears there is still madness out there in the form of ISIS and others who want to force their ideology on others.

Yes a lot of people killed but not near as many as those killed in religious wars. 

[canuckamuck]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

I'm pretty certain he wasn't involved at Pearl Harbor! 

Herbert Walker Bush made out pretty good in WW2. It set up his political dynasty

[billd766]

On 27/12/2016 at 8:36 AM, Pimay1 said:

There is nothing "good" about 2,400 people losing their lives.

 

Or the over 100,000 who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Pimay1]

29 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Or the over 100,000 who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Exactly.

[Grouse]

On 27/12/2016 at 2:17 PM, Thaidream said:

The Japanese attacked because they feared strangulation by the American Government's policy of denying essential resources  such as steel and oil and felt threatened by Russia and China. Japan felt it must go to war with the US and tried to catch the American Fleet in Pearl Harbor. The Aircraft carriers were not there and they knew they had made a grave error.America indeed did awake and carved out the greatest call to arms and armament industry in the World. My father and his brother enlisted in the Marine Corps and Navy and were sent to some of the worst battles in the Pacific. My mother worked 12 hours per day in an aircraft factory. America was united as never before.

The Americans and British were allies in the War and are still the same today. America was supplying armaments to the British in the 30's and 40's and of course the Americans and British planned the D day invasion together. There are some Brits and also Americans who will claim that neither side needed the other but the majority of people on both sides knew that the war could not have been won without the skills of either side.  Britain had superior intelligence and a professional well trained military while America had superior numbers and equipment as well as the potential for all the armaments needed to win. The German Army at the time was massive and capable and had its own massive armament industry- of course- fuelled by 'slave' labor.

The British suffered greatly during the war years  with 28,000 killed and another 25,000 wounded during the German Blitz on London and other areas. That is a huge number compared to their population.  In addition the total UK deaths from the war (which includes British colonies) is a staggering 380,000 and the Americans lost over 400,000 dead.  

Absolute madness in the World at that time and it appears there is still madness out there in the form of ISIS and others who want to force their ideology on others.

 

Lend lease was between 41 and 45

 

There is some truth to the saying that the war was won with Soviet blood, American money and British intelligence.

 

A key point was that Hitler, amazingly, stood by the terms of their alliance with Japan and declared war on the USA.

 

Some say that Pearl Harbour was known in advance by Bletchley but Churchill declined to inform Roosevelt. It's denied of course ?

[ilostmypassword]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Herbert Walker Bush made out pretty good in WW2. It set up his political dynasty

Bush's father was Prescott Bush, who was a U.S. senator from 1952-1963.  His father in turn was president of a steel company and had an important government job during ww1.  Bush was part of a political dynasty, not the founder of one.

[Prbkk]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Lend lease was between 41 and 45

 

There is some truth to the saying that the war was won with Soviet blood, American money and British intelligence.

 

A key point was that Hitler, amazingly, stood by the terms of their alliance with Japan and declared war on the USA.

 

Some say that Pearl Harbour was known in advance by Bletchley but Churchill declined to inform Roosevelt. It's denied of course ?

 

Even if Churchill hadn't known about it, it must have been a blessing for him ( just as the sinking of The Lusitania was during the First War.

[canuckamuck]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Bush's father was Prescott Bush, who was a U.S. senator from 1952-1963.  His father in turn was president of a steel company and had an important government job during ww1.  Bush was part of a political dynasty, not the founder of one.

I made a mistake thinking George Herbert Walker was Prescott Bush's father. He was the father in-law instead.  Thank you for correcting me. My point was not far off however. George Walker did very well in the war business.

[halloween]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Lend lease was between 41 and 45

 

There is some truth to the saying that the war was won with Soviet blood, American money and British intelligence.

 

A key point was that Hitler, amazingly, stood by the terms of their alliance with Japan and declared war on the USA.

 

Some say that Pearl Harbour was known in advance by Bletchley but Churchill declined to inform Roosevelt. It's denied of course ?

 

Malaya was invaded by Japan some 2 hours before Pearl Harbour was attacked. Was that enough time for that news to be transmitted?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Prbkk said:

 

Even if Churchill hadn't known about it, it must have been a blessing for him ( just as the sinking of The Lusitania was during the First War.

 

Hmm, Churchill was desperate For the USA to enter the war particularly before Hitler breached the Molotov Ribbentropp pact and began Barbarossa. Without the USA, we would probably have failed to stop the Soviets reaching the channel!

 

The Lusitania was sunk in 2015, 2 years before the USA joined in. (IMHO, the U.K. Should have sat that one out)

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

 

Malaya was invaded by Japan some 2 hours before Pearl Harbour was attacked. Was that enough time for that news to be transmitted?

 

Some say Bletchley was already in to Japanese naval codes...I doubt the truth will ever be known. Coventry and Crete were certainly sacrificed for strategic secrecy. ?

[Credo]

The Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor happened in conjunction with the invasion of Thailand, the Philippines and the Malay peninsula.   Dec. 7 for Pearl Harbor and the others on Dec. 8.   

 

 

[halloween]

3 hours ago, Credo said:

The Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor happened in conjunction with the invasion of Thailand, the Philippines and the Malay peninsula.   Dec. 7 for Pearl Harbor and the others on Dec. 8.   

 

 

"In conjunction" does not mean that they happened simultaneously. A little understanding of international time and dates shows that an event occurring very early on the 8th Malay local time actually preceded an 8am event on the 7th PH time.

[Credo]

17 minutes ago, halloween said:

"In conjunction" does not mean that they happened simultaneously. A little understanding of international time and dates shows that an event occurring very early on the 8th Malay local time actually preceded an 8am event on the 7th PH time.

Don't put words in my mouth.   I did not say simultaneously.   I said 'in conjunction' and that's what I meant.   At that time, there was no good reason for military action to occur simultaneously when covering such a vast area.   

[halloween]

22 minutes ago, Credo said:

Don't put words in my mouth.   I did not say simultaneously.   I said 'in conjunction' and that's what I meant.   At that time, there was no good reason for military action to occur simultaneously when covering such a vast area.   

Really? I would have thought that the speed of radio and telephone communication would have negated the size of the area. News of an invasion would have been transmitted to the UK almost immediately, with some delay for bureaucratic inertia.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Really? I would have thought that the speed of radio and telephone communication would have negated the size of the area. News of an invasion would have been transmitted to the UK almost immediately, with some delay for bureaucratic inertia.

I doubt that the Japanese sent a radio message to the UK to tell them they were planning on bombing Pearl Harbor.  

[rabas]

2 hours ago, Credo said:

 

4 hours ago, halloween said:

Really? I would have thought that the speed of radio and telephone communication would have negated the size of the area. News of an invasion would have been transmitted to the UK almost immediately, with some delay for bureaucratic inertia.

I doubt that the Japanese sent a radio message to the UK to tell them they were planning on bombing Pearl Harbor.  

 

 

No, but the Japanese did inform the US secretary of State in Washington 20 minutes before the attack that they were breaking relations with the US. Well, except the Japanese ambassador was late because it took too long to decode the secret  message from Tokyo. Thus, the Secretary of State was already informed about Pearl Harbor by the time he meet the ambassador.

 

Always wondered why it took so long to decode . It was a looooong message,

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/WorldWar2/memo.htm

to which the Secretary responded:

 

" In all my fifty years of public service I have never seen a document that was more crowded with infamous falsehoods and distortions-infamous falsehoods and distortions on a scale so huge that I never imagined until today that any Government on this planet was capable of uttering them."

[Rhys]

...and so history moves on

[halloween]

10 hours ago, Credo said:

I doubt that the Japanese sent a radio message to the UK to tell them they were planning on bombing Pearl Harbor.  

You seem intent on stating the obvious. The allied forces deployed in Malaya weren't expecting an invasion by the Germans or any of their then current allies were they? So with the first outbreak of serious fighting, it would have been obvious that Japan had entered the war, and this would have immediately been relayed to the UK. Whether that information was immediately passed on to the US is not so obvious. If it had, the point of first contact might have been guessed at, given the 4000km closer proximity. 

[Grouse]

One thing that was nicely addressed in "The Imitation Game" is that is one thing to obtain information; how one uses that information is quite a different matter...

 

Cricket anyone?