Labour Government’s Bold Claim to “honesty with voters” Has Unraveled Quickly

[Jingthing]

Hamas are freedom fighters, same as the French resistance during the last war. If Israel was to get out of the territory that it is illegally occupying operating in there would be no such problems.

Israel did leave Gaza or did you miss that?

[retarius]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

No. Not the same as colonialists. Jews are indigenous to Israel. The Israel demonization agenda tries so hard to deny that reality but most Jewish people get it.


It's darkly hilarious actually. Jews in the European diaspora for thousands of years never seen as native white people but now Israel demonization trying to paint Jews as white colonialists with no connection to Israel the same as white Belgians raping Congo.

As far as the argument that Israel should be better well there is merit to that POV within parameters of protecting their vital interests in defending Israel.

 

As such each specific issue is a judgment call.
 

 

Total nonsense. Most of the Israelis come from Russia or Europe.

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Not that B.S. again. The Zionist movement was started mostly as a political movement recognizing that life in the diaspora (diaspora meaning outside Israel) had proven too treacherous for the Jewish people and that political liberation /self determination in a state was necessary for the Jewish people to survive. That is not colonialism and it is also my view those pushing the lie that Jews don't have legitimate claims to Israel is very often thinly veiled hatred.

Other political opposition movements can be aggressive but Israel demonization is so often about denying Jews specifically their right to political self determination which in these times means Israel.

 

You seem to be forgetting about the native (dare I say, "indigenous"?) people who were there for tens of generations before the Jews living all over the world decided they needed their own state.

 

Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the root of the issue?

 

Not hatred.  Just a review of the history- with numbers provided by the Jews themselves.

 

[TheFishman1]

Well America bury at sea no mark grave Good for Isreal very bad people 

[Jingthing]

42 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You seem to be forgetting about the native (dare I say, "indigenous"?) people who were there for tens of generations before the Jews living all over the world decided they needed their own state.

 

Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the root of the issue?

 

Not hatred.  Just a review of the history- with numbers provided by the Jews themselves.

 

The root of the issue is that when Israel became a state, multiple Arab and/or Muslim majority nations did not agree to the partition that would have created a Palestinian state and immediately attacked Israel. They would not accept a national state with a majority Jewish demographic with ANY borders. Israel without a strong defense would not exist. 

 

Another thing the Israel demonization agenda NEVER mentions -- the Jewish Nakba.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jun/25/middleeast.middleeastthemedia

 

The displacement of Jews from Arab countries was not just a backlash to the creation of Israel and the Arabs' humiliating defeat. The "push" factors were already in place. Arab League states drafted a law in November 1947 brandingtheir Jews as enemy aliens. But non-Muslim minorities, historically despised as dhimmis with few rights, were already being oppressed by Nazi-inspired pan-Arabism and Islamism. These factors sparked the conflict with Zionism, and drive it to this day.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Jingthing

[greenchair]

Perhaps they should return live people to the families. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, bobbin said:

Well.. I voted for Morch for POTY..  He is biased but he still attempts to add depth and insight into these "discussions". He is not, at least to my eyes, a simple cheerleader for Israel, like several posters here with whom we are well familiar.

 

But..he says impulse is simply trying to hold Israel to higher standards and I ask "why not?". Is Israel not regarded as the most evolved country in the region? Isn't that why we are supposed to protect them at all costs lest we lose the only democracy in the ME? If both sides are holding human remains as bargaining chips, and the bargain is not getting done, Israel has nothing to lose, and perhaps some good will to be gained, by returning the bodies to their families.

 

And geriactickid asks impulse why he has no condemnation of Hamas. Again, is Israel not regarded, probably rightly so, as the more civilized (by many measurements) entity, and should be expected to take the high road? Cue Mrs. Obama.."When they go low, we go high"...

 

This is not a contest of equals. Never has been. The vast majority of Israelis, either themselves or their very recent ancestors came to the area from outside and joined a long list of colonizers who out-muscle the current inhabitants in order to claim something as theirs. My country, and all countries of the New World being prime examples. But this exercise is happening now, not hundreds of years ago, and we are watching.

 

 

 

Treachery! I opted out! My poster rights were violated!

 

Back on topic (something many seem having trouble with), and in reply to your question - there's a point were holding Israel to higher standards becomes less of a moral issue, and more of a propaganda tool. Israel shouldn't follow the admittedly lower standards set by many of its neighbors, but then again, setting the bar too high is unrealistic. A country exists within a certain set of conditions that may shape its character, Israel is not on par with most Western countries with regard to its circumstances. Judging it by these standards is simply setting up a failure. 

 

Ignoring the other side and its actions is another dishonest position. More so as an opposite view is presented when comparisons are deemed supportive of Palestinians. Holding just one of the sides accountable for anything and everything is not an objective not a just position.

 

As for your opinion on returning remains to the Hamas resulting in good will, my suggestion is not to be overly confident when applying Western norms in other parts of the globe. In the ME, it would be seen as weakness, and would result in further taunts and gloating (as seen in the OP's linked article). 

 

The "colonization" rhetoric is both off topic and off mark. The sole aim of harping on this is to further delegitimize Israel. It contributes nothing to discussion nor to anything that resembles conflict resolution.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, gamini said:

Hamas are freedom fighters, same as the French resistance during the last war. If Israel was to get out of the territory that it is illegally occupying operating in there would be no such problems.

 

No, they are not.

Freedom fighters would concentrate their attacks on security forces and government installations, rather than civilian. Hamas actions do not exhibit this distinction. This was addressed both by the (surprisingly) UN and (even more surprising) the PA.

 

Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip years ago. Hostilities did not end. Educate yourself.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Honthy said:

The newest humanitarian action from the Flagship of the Liberalism.

 

Read the article linked in the OP.

[Elfin]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Israel did leave Gaza or did you miss that?

Jingthing if the Israelis left Gaza, then why are their near daily incursions to arrest Palestinians or to kill them. Why are there drones constantly flying overhead along with IDF aircaft in their airspace?

Why do the IDF shoot at farmers who dare to farm in constantly changing "no-go" zones?

I could go on with more..............................

Edited January 2, 2017 by Elfin
Spelling

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Honthy said:

I did. AND?

There is an international convention what is supposed to be followed, even to israel. 

Read the convention, please ;-)

 

But the Palestinians are exempt?

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Jingthing if the Israelis left Gaza, then why are their near daily incursions to arrest Palestinians or to kill them. Why are there drones constantly flying overhead along with IDF aircaft in their airspace?

Why do the IDF shoot at farmers who dare to farm in constantly changing "no-go" zones?

I could go on with more..............................

 

There are no "near daily incursions" to the Gaza Strip. Drones and other aircraft are mostly surveillance, something to do with Hamas and other Palestinian organizations tendency to carry out attacks, smuggle in weapons for carrying out attack etc. There is a no go zone along the border fence, again - something to do with Hamas actions.

 

[Morch]

@Honthy

 

That's cute, but nothing to do with law in modern day Israel. Try harder.

[Honthy]

Just now, Morch said:

@Honthy

 

That's cute, but nothing to do with law in modern day Israel. Try harder.

 

Tried.... Sit down, you learned the lesson well. No need to think about it. That would be harmful to you maybe. 

I sent a long answer and you answered immediately. Great, fast reader. 

[Thorgal]

Israel did leave Gaza or did you miss that?

The few Israeli settlers left indeed the Gaza Strip. The Israeli control, embargo, economic sanctions and reprisals remained unchanged.

To claim that Gaza is independent and under Palestinian control is rather not true...

OP proves that.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Honthy said:

Drones are mostly for surveillance  in an other country. OK. you learned the lesson well, you can sit down.

 

If it is another country, should it be held to the same conventions mentioned earlier?

And being another country, by itself is no immunity - a country that attacks another (which is, what the Hamas and others are doing) should expect retaliation.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

The few Israeli settlers left indeed the Gaza Strip. The Israeli control, embargo, economic sanctions and reprisals remained unchanged.

To claim that Gaza is independent and under Palestinian control is rather not true...

OP proves that.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

The Israeli actions do not take place in a vacuum - try as you may to minimize Palestinian actions or justify them.

Nobody but you claimed the Gaza Strip is independent. Under Palestinian control? In some aspects it is, in other it isn't.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, CharlieK said:

yet it is well known the Israel treats wounded Syrian civilians from the conflict in Syria.

Not civilians, primarily - fighters - the ones who slaughter Christians and Shia-Muslims, and oppose the govt of Syria who generally protected freedom of religion.

 

2 hours ago, gamini said:

Hamas are freedom fighters, same as the French resistance during the last war. If Israel was to get out of the territory that it is illegally occupying operating in there would be no such problems.

 

Not even close - they are kill-crazy madmen on a mission of genocidal extermination, if they could pull it off.  Note that Mossad funded Hamas, in their early-days, to divide the Palestinian opposition.

 

You could almost make the "freedom fighter" case for Hezbollah's actions in Lebanon, before they became hired-guns in Syria (though fighting for the lesser of evils, there). 

 

Sometimes there is no "good guy" to be found on the battlefield, and the question comes down to which is more dangerous to "you and yours," should they prevail.

Edited January 2, 2017 by JackThompson

[Chip Allen]

Why is this controversial? Militants do not deserve a proper  burial. They should be sealed inside a pig's carcass and set on fire.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Chip Allen said:

Why is this controversial? Militants do not deserve a proper  burial. They should be sealed inside a pig's carcass and set on fire.

That's wrong.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   Please stay on topic.  

[Morch]

 

@Honthy

 

Please do not put words in my mouth. Other than that, troll on.

[bandito]

20 hours ago, impulse said:

Thumbing their nose at yet another international convention, according to the Red Cross (Rules 105 x 114):

 

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter35_rule114

 

 

 

 

And Hamas complies?

Murdering and torturing any captured Israeli.

That's in the International Convention according to you Jew haters?

Who started socking rockets and granates at Israel, right  the lovely Hamas.

Any country bombing your country?

What would your country do if so?

Retaliate? probably send the attacker flowers.

International Convention, my a...

 

 

[JingerBen]

3 hours ago, bandito said:

 

And Hamas complies?

Murdering and torturing any captured Israeli.

That's in the International Convention according to you Jew haters?

Who started socking rockets and granates at Israel, right  the lovely Hamas.

Any country bombing your country?

What would your country do if so?

Retaliate? probably send the attacker flowers.

International Convention, my a...

 

 

Demonizing people as "Jew haters" isn't very effective at persuading them that you're correct. It can, in fact, even push people who are on the fence over to the other side because it is ugly. It evinces the same lack of respect for the basic humanity of one's opponent no matter which side in an argument does it.

It's a kind of bullying and engaging in it further erodes what semblance of civility we have left on this forum.

[bandito]

16 hours ago, JingerBen said:

Demonizing people as "Jew haters" isn't very effective at persuading them that you're correct. It can, in fact, even push people who are on the fence over to the other side because it is ugly. It evinces the same lack of respect for the basic humanity of one's opponent no matter which side in an argument does it.

It's a kind of bullying and engaging in it further erodes what semblance of civility we have left on this forum.

 

So your one of these?

It seems to ring a bell with you, are you German by any chance?

You talk like a Lawyer also, lifting one word out of a comment and building your case around it, trying to discredit the other party and ignoring whats being discussed.

Is not working with me.

I experienced WWII in Europe, yes I am that old, and will not stand for any "Jew hating" comments.

For the rest, you can aw forget it. your hopeless.

 

[oldsailor35]

On 02/01/2017 at 1:17 PM, impulse said:

Thumbing their nose at yet another international convention, according to the Red Cross (Rules 105 x 114):

 

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter35_rule114

 

 

 

So are the Hamas complying with the international Convention.  NO they are not,and never have, so why should Israel who have done so in the past.

[oldsailor35]

On 02/01/2017 at 2:00 PM, impulse said:

 

So, what you're saying is that we can violate international conventions with impunity because the bad guys do.  Something like 2 wrongs make a right?

 

I'm sure they'd happily repatriate the IDF guys in return for some land illegally settled, too.  See how that works?  It's lose-lose.  As if the families of the militants who won't be returned have any control over whether the IDF soldiers are repatriated.  

 

You're either a member of the family of nations, and follow the inherent conventions- or you don't.  If you choose not to follow them, don't get all pissy when the rest of the world doesn't support you, or if the bad guys don't afford your fallen the same consideration.  But you'd better have a real strong military if you go down that path.  Go down it far enough, you'll be all alone.  And that's a dangerous neighborhood.

Errr   can you tell us how long the Jews have been there. And when Palistine first existed. Please do that and then maybe you will understand your "illegally  settled land " myth.

[oldsailor35]

On 02/01/2017 at 2:49 PM, impulse said:

 

I'm saying that Israel's policy here is in violation of Red Cross Rule #114, which also covers conflicts of a non-international nature.  Making Palestine's statehood status immaterial.

I'm saying 2 wrongs don't make the second one okay.   

 

I'm saying that Israel's credibility and status as a member of the family of nations is eroding each time they thumb their nose at international law and international conventions. 

 

I really think that Israel have just about had a gut full of one sided thinkers such as you. If any terrorist organisation such as HAMAS  was using my neighbours (Palistinians) to destroy my country then i would be fighting the hell out of them. Too many people like you have become confused and brainwashed into believing that HAMAS  and all the  do good lefties have the right to do and say whatever they want, to make you believe them.

[oldsailor35]

On 02/01/2017 at 5:11 PM, gamini said:

Hamas are freedom fighters, same as the French resistance during the last war. If Israel was to get out of the territory that it is illegally occupying operating in there would be no such problems.

Utter crap. Nothing like the French resistance, who had no terrorist background. HAMAS has moved into Palistine and taken over control in order to conduct terrorism against Israel, using the Palistinian people in the process. HAMAS was formed  from  the Muslim Brotherhood an Egyptian organisation with a strong terrorist past, once financed by Saudi Arabia, but now condemned by them as a terrorist organisation.