If you are a Brit you cannot hide - scary !!

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

Yes but you never explained fully, remitted same year is not the only criteris in this case 

 

You're getting boring SG, you seem to like the sound of your own voice rather than contributing. OUT

[JB300]

Just giving the  factual implication if the Thai tax man decided to tax Thailand resident UK pensioners whose only income is a state pension,  less than thb 10k year is peanuts...

 

You will find there are those in this postion who "borrow for a fee" the 800k required for the extension based on retirement given the GBP  8k year doesnt meet the 65k/m criteria 

Sorry, the "Wow" was a shock reaction not sarcasm.

I'm genuinely surprised to learn that guys on a pretty thin wedge already, might be hit even further by having to pay tax in Thailand.

Max UK State Pension works out at approx 28,500 THB pm, assuming a large chunk of that is basic living expenses, removing another 800THB pm could hurt.

Add in the fact that the Pension is frozen but expenses (& possibly the tax) are rising & it's a matter of when will it hurt.

[JimGant]

Easy to see how the Thai tax authorities would construe a Brit "State Pension" as a government pension, since I'm pretty sure the literal translation of 'state pension' into Thai is 'government pension.' So, yes, the tax treaty with the UK says "government pensions" can only be taxed by the country cutting the check. The fine print that says government pensions are only pensions earned from government service (which, then -- but not explicitly stated in the treaty -- excludes State Pensions) is, understandably,  lost on the Thais. Thus, no Thai tax allowed per treaty -- a government pension is a government pension is a government pension. Sit down, shut up, and no pay tax.

 

Of course, like most things in Thailand dealing with government entities, I wouldn't take the explanation of one Thai tax official to the bank.

 

 

[elliss]

6 hours ago, uptheos said:

 

Only the owner or leaseholder pays the council tax, you can be on the electoral register if you provide proof of address.

 

     So how  would you provide proof  of address , ?

     surely the property owner  would be  reluctant to  declare,  revenue from property rental .

Edited January 19, 2017 by elliss

[Eff1n2ret]

11 hours ago, elliss said:

 

     So how  would you provide proof  of address , ?

     surely the property owner  would be  reluctant to  declare,  revenue from property rental .

I don't know what uptheos meant either. If you're a UK resident you appear on the electoral register by virtue of the electoral return that is submitted by a householder every year declaring those who are qualified to vote and normally resident at the property on a specific date, usually in October. How you would then exercise your vote if you're not actually living there is anybody's guess, as the voting papers are sent to that address. Of course, someone else could use your voting paper, a practice which has allegedly become rife in some areas, so that it is now being proposed that voters must produce a passport or other i/d at the polling station.

If you're living abroad you can register to vote at the constituency where you were last registered, if less than 15 years previously. I don't recall having to provide any proof of address when registering in this way.

[Oxx]

2 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

If you're a UK resident you appear on the electoral register by virtue of the electoral return that is submitted by a householder every year.

 

Wrong.  Individuals are required to register individually.

 

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-individual-electoral-registration

[Savilesghost]

17 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

You're getting boring SG, you seem to like the sound of your own voice rather than contributing. OUT

Why the hostility ? and why are you trolling ?

Touching a nerve perhaps ? 

[jayboy]

20 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

Because its all to with tax  thresholds/ tax residency / and local tax laws

 

1. A pensioner who lives in Thailand 180 + days is resident in Thailand for tax purposes 

2. Thai tax doesnt specifically exclude pensions 

3. UK doesnt tax the money 

4 Money brought in into Thailand " same year its earned"

 

Thai tax man would be within his rights to claim tax off this amount

 

Therefore back of a cigarette packet calculation 

 

Full UK state pension is 155 pound a week = just over GBP 8000 /yr or thb 338, 000/year or there abouts

 

Per thai tax table first 150 k is tax free, balance taxed at around 5% leaving around thb thb 329,000 , so in reality they would only be getting hit for around thb 9.5k/year which is not a bad deal and maybe the pensionerd shouldnt whinge so much 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your 1, 2 and 4 are correct.However it's not true that the state pension is non taxable in the UK even though it's paid over gross.If your total gross income - including the state pension - is more than your personal allowance, then you are liable to UK income tax on the amount that exceeds your personal allowance.I assume that the vast majority of farang pensioners have income (investment, rental, other pension etc) in addition to their state pensions, and are thus liable to UK tax.

 

 

The practical position in most cases is that pensioners (the 180 days + people) do not submit tax returns in Thailand (unless of course they have income which is being generated in Thailand in which case they must).The amounts they bring in tend to be modest but nevertheless I agree Thai tax theoretically ought to be paid on amounts brought in that were earned in the same year.The practical position is that this never happens and I'm guessing very few even have tax numbers.So is non registration with the tax authorities a risk? Yes, though in my view not a very serious one.I think it would be prudent in the remote eventuality of the authorities scrutinizing this area for affected pensioners to arrange their affairs so that remittances from overseas are in respect of past years earnings.Many however would argue that even this step is unnecessarily cautious on the grounds it's impossible to disentangle the year income was earned.Still in Thailand as probably everywhere it's best not to ask a question where you might get the wrong answer  (even having to submit a nil return would be a bore)- so I don't suggest it's a good idea for foreign pensioners to look for a detailed discussion with the Thai tax authorities on this subject.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by jayboy

[hawker9000]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:25 AM, elliss said:

 

      Spot on ,  

I  have  this  mounth ,  been requested  by Nationwide ,

           to provide evidence of my UK , residential address .

        If evidence is not presented , your account is closed ,  I know . 

 

      It pays to be on the electoral register and pay community tax .

      The  belt is tightening , Big  brother is  watching us .

 

             

 

He has to be.  He's broke.  And the 'broker' he gets, the more closely you're going to be watched.

Edited January 20, 2017 by hawker9000

[JB300]

 

      Spot on ,  

I  have  this  mounth ,  been requested  by Nationwide ,

           to provide evidence of my UK , residential address .

        If evidence is not presented , your account is closed ,  I know . 

 

      It pays to be on the electoral register and pay community tax .

      The  belt is tightening , Big  brother is  watching us .

 

             

Assuming you don't live in the UK, this is terrible advice, the OP points out that the UK is getting more & more information about its citizens living overseas & your advocating "Fiddling" them

The belt is tightening, Big Brother is watching you...

FWIW Barclays has no problem with me having a UK account & living overseas... Granted they might not be too happy about opening a new account for somebody like me, but don't have a problem if you already have an account before you make the move.

[thai3]

it is terrible advice, just be on the register, no need to pay any community charge 

[JB300]

it is terrible advice, just be on the register, no need to pay any community charge 

Lol, no need... Your tenants pay it for you & (don't tell anybody but) they pay you money as well [emoji106]


Joking aside, why would you pretend to maintain UK residency if you don't live there?


Can't be for NHS, your Dr is going to remove you from his list if he hasn't seen you in 18 months & please don't tell me it's so you get the pension increases (it's a matter of when they catch you not if) I honestly don't get it.

On the flip side there are those of us who go out of our way to make sure we're not resident in the UK, as somebody already mentioned I make sure I never spend more than 30 days in the UK (though it's 46 days if you've been Non-resident for more than 3 years) & have been without a driving license for 4 years because I won't sign the piece of paper confirming I live at a UK address.

[chiang mai]

The risk of being found out are now quite high, bank accounts, overseas funds transfers, pension payments, passport renewals, driving license renewals, doctors visits and inspection by the NHS, international travel revealing arrival and departure and so on and so on - there's a huge amount of circumstantial evidence that can be collected quickly, if they wanted to get serious about it all and when it becomes financially worthwhile to do so, they will.

[elliss]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The risk of being found out are now quite high, bank accounts, overseas funds transfers, pension payments, passport renewals, driving license renewals, doctors visits and inspection by the NHS, international travel revealing arrival and departure and so on and so on - there's a huge amount of circumstantial evidence that can be collected quickly, if they wanted to get serious about it all and when it becomes financially worthwhile to do so, they will.

 

They  will ,  sure .

[rickudon]

I can understand State pension being frozen if you are non-resident for tax (although think unfair) but as all my income comes from the UK, the IR consider me resident, fair enough. But the DWP probably does not .....  A case of the UK wanting their cake and eating it too .My own situation a bit murky as i do still maintain a UK address (but neither own or rent), do not own or rent a home elsewhere, have UK bank accounts, visit UK every year and have family there. But never spent 180 days in the UK for some years. What the authorities know or don't know, I don't know ........ and even if they had it, could they actually pull it all together? I just try to add a little fog ...... why make it easy for them.

 

If the government start making it harder to live abroad when you are retired, the first ones they get back will be those who need the most assistance from the state.

[chiang mai]

53 minutes ago, rickudon said:

I can understand State pension being frozen if you are non-resident for tax (although think unfair) but as all my income comes from the UK, the IR consider me resident, fair enough. But the DWP probably does not .....  A case of the UK wanting their cake and eating it too .My own situation a bit murky as i do still maintain a UK address (but neither own or rent), do not own or rent a home elsewhere, have UK bank accounts, visit UK every year and have family there. But never spent 180 days in the UK for some years. What the authorities know or don't know, I don't know ........ and even if they had it, could they actually pull it all together? I just try to add a little fog ...... why make it easy for them.

 

If the government start making it harder to live abroad when you are retired, the first ones they get back will be those who need the most assistance from the state.

The DWP wants you resident for 6 months or more to be eligible for pension cost of living increases.

Ditto the NHS for free health care.

Tax residency also greater than 182 days.

 

They can't have their cake and eat it and you can easily force their hand on that issue.

 

http://www.cambridgetax.co.uk/ctp/New_Residence_Rules.html

[JB300]

The DWP wants you resident for 6 months or more to be eligible for pension cost of living increases.

Ditto the NHS for free health care.

Tax residency also greater than 182 days.

 

They can't have their cake and eat it and you can easily force their hand on that issue.

 

http://www.cambridgetax.co.uk/ctp/New_Residence_Rules.html

Is it 6 months CM?

I do know that it's becoming much easier to be Non-resident (& so much harder to be resident) nowadays.

[Just a commentary, as I've said before, I'm very careful to maintain my Non-resident status to the point where I no longer have a Driving Licence because I won't confirm to a UK authority that I live in the UK because I don't]

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, JB300 said:

Is it 6 months CM?

I do know that it's becoming much easier to be Non-resident (& so much harder to be resident) nowadays.

[Just a commentary, as I've said before, I'm very careful to maintain my Non-resident status to the point where I no longer have a Driving Licence because I won't confirm to a UK authority that I live in the UK because I don't]

 

Greater than 182 days is always resident,

Less than 16 days is always non-resident.

The piece in the middle, 17 to 181 days, is a variable which needs to be be viewed in the context of: family (partner/spouse/minor child who you visit); accommodation (do you own a home or always stay at the same location); work (do you work at least 40 days per year); and previous years visits (90 days per year). These are known as ties and a combination of days and ties decides residency/non-residency. Having said all that, a person can rock to Heathrow and declare themselves resident from Day 1 and that will work for DWP pension increases and NHS also.

[JB300]

 
Greater than 182 days is always resident,
Less than 16 days is always non-resident.
The piece in the middle, 17 to 181 days, is a variable which needs to be be viewed in the context of: family (partner/spouse/minor child who you visit); accommodation (do you own a home or always stay at the same location); work (do you work at least 40 days per year); and previous years visits (90 days per year). These are known as ties and a combination of days and ties decides residency/non-residency. Having said all that, a person can rock to Heathrow and declare themselves resident from Day 1 and that will work for DWP pension increases and NHS also.

I fall in the Non-UK (tax) resident for at least 3 years camp so apparently need to spend more than 46 days in the UK before even being considered as Tax resident, hence my point about it being harder to be resident than Non-resident nowadays.

FWIW, I'm going to re-establish residency in the UK so my (Filipina) partner can get a UK passport, if I've read the regs right we only need to spend 3 months per year there so am looking at nearby (warmer!) countries for us to live in.

[chiang mai]

45 minutes ago, JB300 said:

 

I fall in the Non-UK (tax) resident for at least 3 years camp so apparently need to spend more than 46 days in the UK before even being considered as Tax resident, hence my point about it being harder to be resident than Non-resident nowadays.

FWIW, I'm going to re-establish residency in the UK so my (Filipina) partner can get a UK passport, if I've read the regs right we only need to spend 3 months per year there so am looking at nearby (warmer!) countries for us to live in.


 

 

 

46 days PLUS 4 UK ties will make you resident and 90 days a year thereafter will maintain it, or,

91 days PLUS 3 UK ties, or

121 days PLUS 2 UK ties or,

182 days PLUS a bow tie.

 

But 90 days in the UK each year wont make you eligible for NHS and DWP pension increases.

 

 

[JB300]

 

46 days PLUS 4 UK ties will make you resident and 90 days a year thereafter will maintain it, or,

91 days PLUS 3 UK ties, or

121 days PLUS 2 UK ties or,

182 days PLUS a bow tie.

 

But 90 days in the UK each year wont make you eligible for NHS and DWP pension increases.

 

 

Hopefully won't need #1 (NHS) & could care less about #2 (State Pension) as when it kicks in it will just reduce my Private Pension by the same amount (net neutral for me).

Man this stuff is complicated, what happened to just doing your 30-40 years & retiring somewhere where you can put your feet up, have a 5pm Margarita???

[Eff1n2ret]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The DWP wants you resident for 6 months or more to be eligible for pension cost of living increases.

Ditto the NHS for free health care.

Tax residency also greater than 182 days.

 

They can't have their cake and eat it and you can easily force their hand on that issue.

 

http://www.cambridgetax.co.uk/ctp/New_Residence_Rules.html

A slight amendment to the above - if you are moving back to the UK to resume residence you are entitled to free NHS treatment from the day you arrive, but they might require evidence that you are resuming permanent residence, although I know of no specified criteria for that evidence. If I (God forbid) were moving back the evidence would probably be an instruction to the letting agents to serve notice on the tenants of my house, and  shipping documents for my household possessions.

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

A slight amendment to the above - if you are moving back to the UK to resume residence you are entitled to free NHS treatment from the day you arrive, but they might require evidence that you are resuming permanent residence, although I know of no specified criteria for that evidence. If I (God forbid) were moving back the evidence would probably be an instruction to the letting agents to serve notice on the tenants of my house, and  shipping documents for my household possessions.

 

Yes I agree however previous discussions on this subject concluded that free, non-emergency access to hospitals was unlikely to be granted  in under about 90 days. The reason for this is that time spent in the UK is a major factor and the more time spent there, the more reasonable it it is to conclude that a person is truly settled and their intentions are not bogus. Some of the criteria for that evidence is here, I think everyone should read it:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/430967/OR_Tool__1_.pdf

 

Additional guidance here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496951/Overseas_visitor_hospital_charging_accs.pdf

 

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by chiang mai

[Eff1n2ret]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Yes I agree however previous discussions on this subject concluded that free, non-emergency access to hospitals was unlikely to be granted  in under about 90 days. The reason for this is that time spent in the UK is a major factor and the more time spent there, the more reasonable it it is to conclude that a person is truly settled and their intentions are not bogus. Some of the criteria for that evidence is here, I think everyone should read it:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/430967/OR_Tool__1_.pdf

 

Additional guidance here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496951/Overseas_visitor_hospital_charging_accs.pdf

 

 

Irrespective of any guidelines, in practice it would be pretty much the norm to have to wait at least 90 days for in-patient treatment, given the GP and hospital waiting times that are reported daily, by which time one should have acquired utility and council tax bills. You would expect them to question a little more closely if you got off the plane needing emergency in-patient treatment, but you would be entitled to be treated free of charge if you were genuinely resuming residence and had some documentation such as I suggested to prove it.

I agree, everyone should read those guidelines.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Eff1n2ret said:

Irrespective of any guidelines, in practice it would be pretty much the norm to have to wait at least 90 days for in-patient treatment, given the GP and hospital waiting times that are reported daily, by which time one should have acquired utility and council tax bills. You would expect them to question a little more closely if you got off the plane needing emergency in-patient treatment, but you would be entitled to be treated free of charge if you were genuinely resuming residence and had some documentation such as I suggested to prove it.

I agree, everyone should read those guidelines.

 

Yes the waiting time for treatment is a key element in all of this. I checked out the waiting times to see a couple of UK specialists where I'm going to be living for a few months and none are available in under 56 days, I'm therefore trying to get as much done here in Thailand before I go back for an extended holiday.

[JB300]

 
Yes the waiting time for treatment is a key element in all of this. I checked out the waiting times to see a couple of UK specialists where I'm going to be living for a few months and none are available in under 56 days, I'm therefore trying to get as much done here in Thailand before I go back for an extended holiday.

Wow CM, are you moving back or just an extended holiday?

[chiang mai]

7 hours ago, JB300 said:

 

Wow CM, are you moving back or just an extended holiday?
 

 

 

I'm splitting my year between CM and up norf UK, mostly to escape the burning season here in CM but also to add some variety into our lives, it'll be a series of three month stays as far as I can see - we're excited about it all.

[i claudius]

On 1/22/2017 at 5:11 PM, chiang mai said:

 

Yes the waiting time for treatment is a key element in all of this. I checked out the waiting times to see a couple of UK specialists where I'm going to be living for a few months and none are available in under 56 days, I'm therefore trying to get as much done here in Thailand before I go back for an extended holiday.

Do as a friend of mine did , you pay to see the specialist , saves the 56 day wait , you get the hospital appointment , he came back for the 4 months wait ,then off to the UK a few days before the operation . cost for specialist about 150 pounds ,

[i claudius]

I tried finding a case on the internet where a pensioner had been cought and fined for claiming yearly rises (no other benifits) while living abroad ,i could find nothing , one thing i did see was that 2/3rds of expats living in Spain are reconed not to have registered with the govt that they do not live in Britain  ,that is the govts estimate .

[evadgib]

I know several Claude but they seem to have been tripped up or perhaps even bubbled rather than blatantly caught by DWP. Most now get round it by spending 6 months in UK. One or two report trying to cancel winter fuel allowance etc only to find that it is still being paid!

 

HTH