If you are a Brit you cannot hide - scary !!

[rockingrobin]

12 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Curious.  Can you think of any reason you've been singled out for special treatment?

 

There are lots of expat holders of Nationwide accounts (including myself), and this is the first time I've heard of anyone being asked for proof of their UK address.

 

I do wonder whether this is in any way connected to the closure of Nationwide International.

 

19 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

This has been going on for at least three years with NWI, I was targeted in 2012 and they finally closed my last account (without any resistance from me at all I might add).  The issue is tax residency and money laundering, the same problems all the UK high street banks faced a few years ago, HSBC went through their evaluation of non-UK resident customers to see which ones they wanted to keep and that involved a two hour telephone interview with the bank, NWI apparently couldn't be bothered to do the same thing.

The Finance Act 2008 schedule 36 , gave the HMRC wide and powerful powers

[Savilesghost]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

What I get a kick out of is how so many of the "you have no reason to complain if you're not doing anything wrong" guys change their tune when the privacy rights erode away closer and closer to home.

 

Slippery slope this business of trading away our rights and privacy in return for the illusion we're getting increasing security.  

 

Next they're going to count the smokes and beers you buy so they can charge you more for your contributions to NHS.  Only seems fair to me...  Not.

Well a population elected these scum bags into  into power, so they only have  themselves to blame, too many far too interested in their beer, smokes and play stations to get these sorts of people out of office

 

This has been predicted since 1949, George Orwell warned people did he not ? 

[chiang mai]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

What I get a kick out of is how so many of the "you have no reason to complain if you're not doing anything wrong" guys change their tune when the privacy rights erode away closer and closer to home.

 

Slippery slope this business of trading away our rights and privacy in return for the illusion we're getting increasing security.  

 

Next they're going to count the smokes and beers you buy so they can charge you more for your contributions to NHS.  Only seems fair to me...  Not.

 

"Next they're going to count the smokes and beers you buy so they can charge you more for your contributions to NHS.  Only seems fair to me..."

 

Given the strain that drunks put on the ER nationally I'm actually in favour of people being charged based on the number of beers they've had, it's a sensible thing to do and I bet the majority of the population would support the idea.

[Savilesghost]

38 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

This has been going on for at least three years with NWI, I was targeted in 2012 and they finally closed my last account (without any resistance from me at all I might add).  The issue is tax residency and money laundering, the same problems all the UK high street banks faced a few years ago, HSBC went through their evaluation of non-UK resident customers to see which ones they wanted to keep and that involved a two hour telephone interview with the bank, NWI apparently couldn't be bothered to do the same thing.

Lets get the facts right

 

This is not the banks who are  to blame for all this, typically a bank doesnt care where the money comes from or who owns the account, blame for all this rests in the first instance on the US via their facist  FACTA rules, then the EU/UK copying the US 

 

The simlle solution is, if you dont need a bank account in the UK, dont have one simple

 

[chiang mai]

25 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

Lets get the facts right

 

This is not the banks who are  to blame for all this, typically a bank doesnt care where the money comes from or who owns the account, blame for all this rests in the first instance on the US via their facist  FACTA rules, then the EU/UK copying the US 

 

The simlle solution is, if you dont need a bank account in the UK, dont have one simple

 

 

No this is not just about FACTA it's about a number of issues rolled into one that banks absolutely do care about, because if they don't they wont stay in business. Yes, in part it's about FACTA but it's also about tax evasion, money laundering and proceeds of crime, as well probably other things. In Thailand the issue for many is FACTA, in the UK FACTA is far less of a headline issue. I went through the two hour HSBC telephone interview and I can assure you that FACTA is not their primary concern.

 

As for not having a UK bank account: most pensioners will tell you they need that UK bank account to receive pension payments. Sure they could have those payments deposited directly here in Thailand. But that wont seem like such a brilliant idea when at some point in the future the Thai governement starts to deduct with holding tax on income earned during the year it was remitted here!

Edited January 14, 2017 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

On 12/01/2017 at 1:08 PM, Savilesghost said:

No anything over 10k USD is flagged, doesnt mean every transaction is looked at 

 

...and any accumulation of transfers and deposits that totals 10k is also flagged.

 

Just to add, the US banks were sending 10K reports to the Fed every day as far back as 1981, they have that surveillance perfected by now.

Edited January 14, 2017 by chiang mai

[Savilesghost]

22 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

No this is not just about FACTA it's about a number of issues rolled into one that banks absolutely do care about, because if they don't they wont stay in business. Yes, in part it's about FACTA but it's also about tax evasion, money laundering and proceeds of crime, as well probably other things. In Thailand the issue for many is FACTA, in the UK FACTA is far less of a headline issue. I went through the two hour HSBC telephone interview and I can assure you that FACTA is not their primary concern.

 

As for not having a UK bank account: most pensioners will tell you they need that UK bank account to receive pension payments. Sure they could have those payments deposited directly here in Thailand. But that wont seem like such a brilliant idea when at some point in the future the Thai governement starts to deduct with holding tax on income earned during the year it was remitted here!

 

I am calling BS on needing a UK account to get pensions, my parents havent lived the UK in 40 years, been on UK pension for the last 15 years and havent got a UK account, they will transfer the pension to a account where they live 

 

A lot of pensioners living in Thailand maintain a UK account and address because they are claiming the increases , winter fuel allowances etc...ie they are commiting fraud, and HMRC will catch up with them.

 

As regards the Thai tax man comment...rubbish, this is exactly what a reciprocal tax agreement is for, a pension taxed at source in the UK, you have proof from HMRC that the money has been taxed, the Thai tax man will not touch you,

 

if your resident in Thailand for tax, via the 180 day day and the money hasnt been taxed, the Thai taxman has the right to tax that pension (not that i think they would) 

 

Besides, not so long ago we had resident "experts" on here telling everyone pensions are tax free in Thailand, which is also rubbish of course

[Savilesghost]

33 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

No this is not just about FACTA it's about a number of issues rolled into one that banks absolutely do care about, because if they don't they wont stay in business. Yes, in part it's about FACTA but it's also about tax evasion, money laundering and proceeds of crime, as well probably other things. In Thailand the issue for many is FACTA, in the UK FACTA is far less of a headline issue. I went through the two hour HSBC telephone interview and I can assure you that FACTA is not their primary concern.

 

As for not having a UK bank account: most pensioners will tell you they need that UK bank account to receive pension payments. Sure they could have those payments deposited directly here in Thailand. But that wont seem like such a brilliant idea when at some point in the future the Thai governement starts to deduct with holding tax on income earned during the year it was remitted here!

You misunderstand my facta remark

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Savilesghost said:

 

I am calling BS on needing a UK account to get pensions, my parents havent lived the UK in 40 years, been on UK pension for the last 15 years and havent got a UK account, they will transfer the pension to a account where they live 

 

A lot of pensioners living in Thailand maintain a UK account and address because they are claiming the increases , winter fuel allowances etc...ie they are commiting fraud, and HMRC will catch up with them.

 

As regards the Thai tax man comment...rubbish, this is exactly what a reciprocal tax agreement is for, a pension taxed at source in the UK, you have proof from HMRC that the money has been taxed, the Thai tax man will not touch you,

 

if your resident in Thailand for tax, via the 180 day day and the money hasnt been taxed, the Thai taxman has the right to tax that pension (not that i think they would) 

 

Besides, not so long ago we had resident "experts" on here telling everyone pensions are tax free in Thailand, which is also rubbish of course

 

You can call BS on whatever you like pal but the fact remains that income remitted to Thailand that was remitted in the year it was earned becomes taxable in Thailand. And dual tax treaties don't enter into that picture if 1) the person is tax resident in Thailand, and/or, 2) the UK pension was under the UK personal allowance, (assuming that expats are allowed to keep the personal tax allowance in the future)

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

You misunderstand my facta remark

 

No I do understand what you wrote in that the UK/UE copied US regulations. But the point remains that the banks do care, they have to otherwise they are criminally liable so it's not just a case any longer of them following orders..

[Savilesghost]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

You can call BS on whatever you like pal but the fact remains that income remitted to Thailand that was remitted in the year it was earned becomes taxable in Thailand. And dual tax treaties don't enter into that picture if 1) the person is tax resident in Thailand, and/or, 2) the UK pension was under the UK personal allowance, (assuming that expats are allowed to keep the personal tax allowance in the future)

 

So when retires using the 800k method, why is that no subject to withholding tax in Thailand, if your premise is correct surely thats would be the case ?, lest not forget the criteria 65k/m or 800k, your logic is flawed, if one couldnt prove when the money was earned, the default postion for the tax man would be to invoke the holding tax, ie the onus is on the individual to prove the money wasnt earned that tax year

 

And reciprocal tax agreements do have everything to do with it and can be used 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Savilesghost

[impulse]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

"Next they're going to count the smokes and beers you buy so they can charge you more for your contributions to NHS.  Only seems fair to me..."

 

Given the strain that drunks put on the ER nationally I'm actually in favour of people being charged based on the number of beers they've had, it's a sensible thing to do and I bet the majority of the population would support the idea.

 

I'm not against charging them for the number of beers and smokes.  More accurately, for whatever voluntary lifestyle choices they make that puts a strain on everyone's health care spending.  Private insurance companies do it.

 

I'm against them being able to collect that information.  Both the technical ability and the legal ability.  Because right after counting beers and smokes, it'll be counting grams of fat and number of sex partners (vs number of condoms purchased?)

[KarenBravo]

14 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Curious.  Can you think of any reason you've been singled out for special treatment?

 

There are lots of expat holders of Nationwide accounts (including myself), and this is the first time I've heard of anyone being asked for proof of their UK address.

 

I do wonder whether this is in any way connected to the closure of Nationwide International.

 

This is only for people who's bank accounts are in the Channel Islands, or the Isle of Man

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Savilesghost said:

 

So when retires using the 800k method, why is that no subject to withholding tax in Thailand, if your premise is correct surely thats would be the case ?, lest not forget the criteria 65k/m or 800k, your logic is flawed, if one couldnt prove when the money was earned, the default postion for the tax man would be to invoke the holding tax, ie the onus is on the individual to prove the money wasnt earned that tax year

 

And reciprocal tax agreements do have everything to do with it and can be used 

 

 

 

A reciprocal tax agreement is only useful in ensuring a person doesn't pay tax twice, it's of no use in avoiding tax all together.

 

Many UK pensioners receive their State Pension free of tax because it is within their personal allowance. If that pension is paid here in Thailand in the year it is earned AND the Thai authorities decide to enforce the law, that pension will be taxable under Thai tax law as long as the person is tax resident in Thailand and no tax treaty will be able to change that. It therefore follows that having a UK bank account in order to receive pension payments that can be stored and aged, will be of significant benefit.

 

Your question about the 800K: that is not a amount that can be shown to have been earned in the current tax year but it can be shown, because of the amount involved, to be derived from savings rather than from income/payroll/pension in current year.

 

Many people adopt an inventory system of money management, FIFO (first in first out) for example, first money into the account, first money out. So as long a s a person has at least one years of expenses in a savings account it can be claimed that even though the account received funds from the current year, they were not spent in the same - the UK Revenue accept FIFO/LIFO rules by the way and always have..

[SaintLouisBlues]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

A reciprocal tax agreement is only useful in ensuring a person doesn't pay tax twice, it's of no use in avoiding tax all together.

Not quite. Some income earned outside Thailand is not subject to tax unless it is repatriated to Thailand. I've not heard of an retiree having to pay Thai income tax just because their pension is remitted to Thailand and that's usually because as chiang mai says there are double tax treaties in place that ensure that the same income isn't subject to tax twice. If you're under the UK tax threshold and therefore paid no tax on your UK pension you won't be paying tax in Thailand either. However there are some forms of "income" that may not be taxable where they are earned and not taxable in Thailand either, either because it's eg. a capital gain or  you never repatriated the funds to Thaiand and declared them as income

 

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/thailand-income-tax.html

[lopburi3]

Actually in the case of pensions the tax treaties are designed to specify which country the tax is due to be paid in for USA and expect the same is true for UK.  My American pension is taxed in USA regardless of my living in Thailand but if survivor were paid to my Thai wife tax would be due in Thailand.  It is by nationality/paying country; not by tax residence.   Pensions are not regular income.  

[fulhamboy]

16 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Curious.  Can you think of any reason you've been singled out for special treatment?

 

There are lots of expat holders of Nationwide accounts (including myself), and this is the first time I've heard of anyone being asked for proof of their UK address.

 

I do wonder whether this is in any way connected to the closure of Nationwide International.

 

Yes I am with Nationwide, even have their ten quid a month account for free

withdrawals abroad, I am not a expat just taking a very long holiday ! 

[chiang mai]

31 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Not quite. Some income earned outside Thailand is not subject to tax unless it is repatriated to Thailand. I've not heard of an retiree having to pay Thai income tax just because their pension is remitted to Thailand and that's usually because as chiang mai says there are double tax treaties in place that ensure that the same income isn't subject to tax twice. If you're under the UK tax threshold and therefore paid no tax on your UK pension you won't be paying tax in Thailand either. However there are some forms of "income" that may not be taxable where they are earned and not taxable in Thailand either, either because it's eg. a capital gain or  you never repatriated the funds to Thaiand and declared them as income

 

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/thailand-income-tax.html

 

You perhaps need to go back and read the past few threads to see what the arguments are that are being made and what has already been said on this - the discussion is about the merits of having a UK bank account or not which I argue is essential for pensioners to store their pension payments, in the event that Thailand does start to enforce the law on taxing income sent here during the year it is earned.

[worgeordie]

Just when you feel you can see the light at the end of a tunnel,

you find out it's a bloody taxman with a flashlight.

 

They will do everything to extract their pound of flesh, except from

the very rich it seems.

regards worgeordie

[thai3]

3 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

 

I am calling BS on needing a UK account to get pensions, my parents havent lived the UK in 40 years, been on UK pension for the last 15 years and havent got a UK account, they will transfer the pension to a account where they live 

 

A lot of pensioners living in Thailand maintain a UK account and address because they are claiming the increases , winter fuel allowances etc...ie they are commiting fraud, and HMRC will catch up with them.

 

 

 

 

How and when will they start? never heard of anyone being caught up with so far in 10 years that I have been here.

[chiang mai]

36 minutes ago, thai3 said:

 

 

How and when will they start? never heard of anyone being caught up with so far in 10 years that I have been here.

 

The law covering that point is already there, it's just not being enforced currently, just like the TM30 rule wasn't being enforced but then all of a sudden it was:

 

" Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand".

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

 

The worst possible combination of events would be if Thailand started to enforce the above AND if the UK were to revoke the Personal Allowance for expats. Rest assured however the trend is very firmly set for governments to do these things, the US has progressively imposed tax by stealth on ex green card holders to where they can no longer claim the personal allowance if not US resident, others will follow.

 

EDIT: formatting and colour and underline is screwed up here but can't seem to fix it.
 

Edited January 14, 2017 by chiang mai

[thai3]

So the HRMC could scrap personal allowances, could find you if you are pretending to be at home and claiming the yearly increases, and then Thais could tax you on what you have left. Glad i'll be going home soon.

Edited January 14, 2017 by thai3

[impulse]

1 minute ago, thai3 said:

So the HRMC could scrap personal allowances, could find you if you are pretending to be at home and claiming the yearly increases, and hen Thais could tax you on what you have left. 

 

You won't have anything left after penalties and interest.  And you'll still owe the taxes...

[Jip99]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

This has been going on for at least three years with NWI, I was targeted in 2012 and they finally closed my last account (without any resistance from me at all I might add).  The issue is tax residency and money laundering, the same problems all the UK high street banks faced a few years ago, HSBC went through their evaluation of non-UK resident customers to see which ones they wanted to keep and that involved a two hour telephone interview with the bank, NWI apparently couldn't be bothered to do the same thing.

 

 

 

I believe that NWI probably knew they were closing their business anyway.

 

The current Nationwide letters relate to new international tax compliance regulations.....

[rockingrobin]

For information here is the UK double tax agreement

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

 

 

[dbrenn]

On 11/01/2017 at 9:08 PM, i claudius said:

 

If i remember right its anything over 10k that is looked at , money laundering

Might not be as much as 10k. The Australian Taxation Office, for example, asks you to justify each and every case of sending money to yourself from abroad, no matter how small the amount is. No point in lying because they already have a list of all the international transactions. 

[i claudius]

3 hours ago, thai3 said:

 

 

How and when will they start? never heard of anyone being caught up with so far in 10 years that I have been here.

 

I have actually heard of two , someone told somebody that a guy they knew knew someone who had heard about it in a bar or so he was told .

[rockingrobin]

49 minutes ago, i claudius said:

 

I have actually heard of two , someone told somebody that a guy they knew knew someone who had heard about it in a bar or so he was told .

Overall, some 7,296 British nationals were accused of fiddling their benefits in 157 countries and regions worldwide with the most common cases involving bogus claims for pension credit, housing benefit and income support.

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/uk-cracks-down-on-expat-pension-benefit-fraud.html?fdx_switcher=true

[chiang mai]

16 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Overall, some 7,296 British nationals were accused of fiddling their benefits in 157 countries and regions worldwide with the most common cases involving bogus claims for pension credit, housing benefit and income support.

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/uk-cracks-down-on-expat-pension-benefit-fraud.html?fdx_switcher=true

 

Yes, and those number are going to go a lot higher. But the debate here is about a tax law in Thailand that isn't yet being actively enforced and the impact on those expats without UK banks accounts when it is enforced. in the future.

[thai3]

Thailand only 172, dwarfed by 'fraud' in India Pakistan and Bangladesh, we must be more honest than I thought   

Edited January 14, 2017 by thai3