rooster59 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 HRW rights assessment ‘outdated and unfair’ By THE SUNDAY NATION THE Prayut government yesterday contested claims in a summary on the human rights situation in Thailand released by Human Rights Watch (HRW), saying the allegations were outdated and unfair. “The authors have expressed their views with no updates of the latest status of each issue and, therefore, without taking into consideration progress and efforts made in the country,” a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said. It said Thailand had taken many positive steps in the promotion and protection of human rights but the report failed to take into consideration such developments and efforts. Full story: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/news/national/30304139 -- © Copyright The Nation 2017-01-15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Maybe an update in 50 years when things "might" have changed, till then squeal like a baby "unfair" boo hooo hooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debate101 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Hope this spat results in more people searching out and reading the actual report and that the government doesn't block the HRW website this time. Do they publish in Thai as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optad Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Some frank and strident criticisms of the regime here. They consistently iterate standards expected. Both articles are accessible and worth reading. I don't really understand the "outdated" defense. "Unfair" is a predictable perspective. World Report Thailand 2017 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/thailand Thailand: Rights Crisis Deepens Under Dictatorship Empty Junta Promises to Return to Democracy, Respect Rights https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/01/12/thailand-rights-crisis-deepens-under-dictatorship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieinthailand Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 "Outdted and unfair." Thailand has made some progress in some area's, and it has gone backwards in other area's. Unfortunatly the one step forward and two steps back is what he junta is being judged on. The repression of critics on the so-called constitution and the yet agian postponed election is some would say very relevant up to date and fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 The reality is that Thailand had abysmal human rights problems long before the junta. They'll have abysmal human rights problems after the junta. And a lot of international organizations are using the same-ol' same-ol' to ram their western concept of democracy down the throats in a culture where kleptocracy is a more accurate name for it. The junta are hardly to blame for that- it's thousands of years of feudalism. I don't recall them digging up any mass graves of human trafficking victims buried under the junta's watch. Maybe that's progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtls2005 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Time to help those pesky ferners "understand" what the military Junta is trying to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, impulse said: The reality is that Thailand had abysmal human rights problems long before the junta. They'll have abysmal human rights problems after the junta. And a lot of international organizations are using the same-ol' same-ol' to ram their western concept of democracy down the throats in a culture where kleptocracy is a more accurate name for it. The junta are hardly to blame for that- it's thousands of years of feudalism. I don't recall them digging up any mass graves of human trafficking victims buried under the junta's watch. Maybe that's progress... Agreed, but those fishing fleets with slaves and still using illegal techniques are now out of Thai waters and in places that aren't easy to monitor. Officials in the West know this. They aren't stupid. I for one, am glad they are ramming the western concept of democracy down this cultures throat. Any culture that allows slavery to happen, with officials at the highest levels of government profiting off it, needs to be shaken up. It's disgusting. Luckily, the EU and the US are going after companies that break the IUU laws. Fantastic. https://www.reference.com/government-politics/four-pillars-democracy-bac2813a9373a7d2 Quote The four pillars of democracy are justice, equality, freedom and representation. These pillars were established to ensure the rights and freedoms of all citizens governed by a democracy. Hard to argue with the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldroj Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 "...The Thai government, led by Prime Minister Gen. Prayut Chan-ocha, repeatedly failed in 2016 to fulfill pledges made to the United Nations General Assembly and Human Rights Council to respect human rights and restore democratic rule..." (https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/thailand) Seems to me that the observation by HRW is neither ‘outdated' nor 'unfair’ - Democracy still remains a distant and unassured possibility AND so-called "pledges" go unfulfilled in the maze that is the junta's roadmap !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, craigt3365 said: Agreed, but those fishing fleets with slaves and still using illegal techniques are now out of Thai waters and in places that aren't easy to monitor. Officials in the West know this. They aren't stupid. I for one, am glad they are ramming the western concept of democracy down this cultures throat. Any culture that allows slavery to happen, with officials at the highest levels of government profiting off it, needs to be shaken up. It's disgusting. Luckily, the EU and the US are going after companies that break the IUU laws. Fantastic. https://www.reference.com/government-politics/four-pillars-democracy-bac2813a9373a7d2 Hard to argue with the above. Has their illusion of democracy done anything about slavery to date? Why would you believe that allowing the public to vote for the public faces of the elite who actually hold all the levers of power (under their silver or lead incentive program) would do anything next time that it hasn't done in the past 11? There have to be massive reforms before kleptocracy can become democracy. Otherwise, the elite are just biding their time before they get their bought and sold politicians back to the trough. Edit: The 4 legged table has never had 2 of those pillars holding it up. Doesn't make for a very stable democracy when you don't have a functional justice system to keep the other branches of government in check- nor have they ever had equality when one guy can buy a few million votes for 500 baht a pull. Edited January 15, 2017 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 17 minutes ago, impulse said: Has their illusion of democracy done anything about slavery to date? Why would you believe that allowing the public to vote for the public faces of the elite who actually hold all the levers of power (under their silver or lead incentive program) would do anything next time that it hasn't done in the past 11? There have to be massive reforms before kleptocracy can become democracy. Otherwise, the elite are just biding their time before they get their bought and sold politicians back to the trough. Edit: The 4 legged table has never had 2 of those pillars holding it up. Doesn't make for a very stable democracy when you don't have a functional justice system to keep the other branches of government in check- nor have they ever had equality when one guy can buy a few million votes for 500 baht a pull. Spot on! But still happy the EU and the West are keeping up their pressure. Reform is desperately needed here. Starting with the judiciary!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 16 minutes ago, impulse said: Has their illusion of democracy done anything about slavery to date? Why would you believe that allowing the public to vote for the public faces of the elite who actually hold all the levers of power (under their silver or lead incentive program) would do anything next time that it hasn't done in the past 11? There have to be massive reforms before kleptocracy can become democracy. Otherwise, the elite are just biding their time before they get their bought and sold politicians back to the trough. Do you actually think that the elites (which the junta is very much a part of) don't have access to the trough now? That's the very reason for the last couple of coups. Thaksin was getting too greedy and the old elite was left out in the cold so something had to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, craigt3365 said: Spot on! But still happy the EU and the West are keeping up their pressure. Reform is desperately needed here. Starting with the judiciary!! Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a functional democracy in Thailand. The key word being "functional". But look at the histories of the successful SEA economies, and each one started with a strong man who forced reforms (while enriching their families for generations, true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Becker said: Do you actually think that the elites (which the junta is very much a part of) don't have access to the trough now? That's the very reason for the last couple of coups. Thaksin was getting too greedy and the old elite was left out in the cold so something had to be done. Most Thais don't seem to think Thaksin was getting too greedy. He was letting too much of the elite's wealth trickle down to them. They don't seem to mind their leaders getting filthy rich -that's been in the culture for millennia- as long as they can live decent lives. Edit: Somebody has to put limits on how much is being siphoned off. Otherwise they're eating their metaphorical children if everyone in power takes as much as they can grab with nobody to enforce limits. I believe that's why the last coup. There was nothing left over for developing the country because nobody could control the trough. Edited January 15, 2017 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, impulse said: Most Thais don't seem to think Thaksin was getting too greedy. He was letting too much of the elite's wealth trickle down to them. They don't seem to mind their leaders getting filthy rich -that's been in the culture for millennia- as long as they can live decent lives. Edit: Somebody has to put limits on how much is being siphoned off. Otherwise they're eating their metaphorical children if everyone in power takes as much as they can grab with nobody to enforce limits. I believe that's why the last coup. There was nothing left over for developing the country because nobody could control the trough. You believe there were altruistic and noble motives behind the last coup. I don't. Nothing the armed forces have done since the last coup (or indeed since 1932) has lead me to believe they are anything other than the armed wing of an entrenched, old elite who care about nothing else than their own purses. Edited January 15, 2017 by Becker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Becker said: You believe there were altruistic and noble motives behind the last coup. I don't. Nothing the armed forces have done since the last coup (or indeed since 1932) has lead me to believe they are anything other than the armed wing of an entrenched, old elite who care about nothing else than their own purses. It has nothing to do with altruism. Even the elite can see when the country -their piggy bank- is being sucked dry. They don't have to be altruistic to realize that their slice of the pie is in danger of shrinking if the pie continues to wither away because there's nothing left to reinvest after the unfettered feeding frenzy. Someone has to put limits on how much is siphoned off. That wasn't happening- it was a free-for-all. Without a strong man or a functional judiciary, their other option was a coup. Or a virtual civil war (Edit- which felt like a real possibility in BKK where I worked at the time- and still do). They made the right choice. Edited January 15, 2017 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debate101 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, impulse said: The reality is that Thailand had abysmal human rights problems long before the junta. They'll have abysmal human rights problems after the junta. And a lot of international organizations are using the same-ol' same-ol' to ram their western concept of democracy down the throats in a culture where kleptocracy is a more accurate name for it. The junta are hardly to blame for that- it's thousands of years of feudalism. I don't recall them digging up any mass graves of human trafficking victims buried under the junta's watch. Maybe that's progress... Regardless, the fascist military takeover and ongoing "reforms" to the country's governance have been massive steps backwards for human rights in Thailand, putting an end to several decades of progress. There is no real hope for improvent in these areas in the absence of public control of political institutions. Military, police, and civil service organizations routinely violate individual rights. Previous governments were weak in their ability to reform these institutions, and the Thai public was still weak in successfully pressuring them to do so, but there was hope and progress. Thailand's crowning achievement in the human rights arena was the passage of the 1997 peoples' constitution. It provided a legal framework for human rights defenders to seek justice in cases of state overreach, and some were successful in doing so. That is now a thing of the ancient past, and it is all downhill from here. The idea that an unaccountable government with unchecked power will somehow improve human rights protections is an absolute fairytale. In fact, they have done exactly the opposite. All rights are now going to be legally subordinate to the security of the state as defined by the officials who benefit from violating rights and holding unchecked power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowsdawdle Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 The little general is a real Obama fan if he wants to be evaluated on efforts without regard for results. Oh, and you have to take their word on the efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eligius Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 “Thailand’s human rights crisis has worsened over the year as the military junta has tightened its grip on power and led the country deeper into dictatorship,” Brad Adams, Asia director [of Human Rights Watch], said in a statement. But the governmental dictat proclaims that this is all lies and nonsense - totally out of date and 'unfair'. Who do you think is more likely to be telling the truth? An organisation that is open and free for discussion and rational debate, based on evidence and observation of political realities - or a bunch of gun-toting autocrats who will not even allow any Thai to stand up in public and criticise the actions of the unelected, imposed, unaccountable regime? Ooh, that's a difficult one. Need to rack my brains over that one. Who could be closer to the truth here ....? No - it's too difficult to work out. Cannot begin to imagine who might be telling the truth - and who is lying through their savage back teeth .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, impulse said: They made the right choice. For them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrahamzvi Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 hours ago, aussieinthailand said: "Outdted and unfair." Thailand has made some progress in some area's, and it has gone backwards in other area's. Unfortunatly the one step forward and two steps back is what he junta is being judged on. The repression of critics on the so-called constitution and the yet agian postponed election is some would say very relevant up to date and fair. I am all for keeping full human rights. However, when one wants to pass judgement on the extent of such right being exercised, one ought to check the circumstances and environment. Considering these factors ( remember the unrest, riots etc), I think the present government is doing very well. It takes time and patience to get a nearly perfect situation, which exists only in few countries worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reigntax Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 hours ago, craigt3365 said: Agreed, but those fishing fleets with slaves and still using illegal techniques are now out of Thai waters and in places that aren't easy to monitor. Officials in the West know this. They aren't stupid. I for one, am glad they are ramming the western concept of democracy down this cultures throat. Any culture that allows slavery to happen, with officials at the highest levels of government profiting off it, needs to be shaken up. It's disgusting. Luckily, the EU and the US are going after companies that break the IUU laws. Fantastic. https://www.reference.com/government-politics/four-pillars-democracy-bac2813a9373a7d2 Hard to argue with the above. And lets consider who is running most of these businesses, the military and the RTP. Both untouchable and operate with impunity, one has immunity. They are certainly not operated and controlled by Namsod nobody from Nakhon nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Becker said: For them. You may recall the size and frequency of the bombs being tossed into the different factions' camps was increasing. And 2010, with almost 100 people killed, was not such a distant memory. (Edit: BTW, Thailand was, and remained a democracy in 2010, maybe they learned the lesson) There were no major gun battles in the streets in 2014. Had they not stepped in, that could have changed in the blink of an eye. They did the right thing. For Thailand. They chose the least bloody path- based on the existing situation. That it happened to serve someone's agenda was inevitable, regardless of what they did or didn't do. Edited January 15, 2017 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srikcir Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 6 hours ago, impulse said: The reality is that Thailand had abysmal human rights problems long before the junta. Another reality is that the junta has always been present since 1932, only being visible vs being "dark" during its forced regime changes. The PM cabinet ministry Secretary of Defense is always an active-duty general. And now the junta has a general as the Permanent Secretary of Defence which will not change with the formation of the next elected government. There really is no "before the junta." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 9 hours ago, rooster59 said: HRW rights assessment ‘outdated and unfair’ Yet somehow still accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 "Outdated and unfair". It characterises very well the current government! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elgordo38 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 10 hours ago, optad said: Some frank and strident criticisms of the regime here. They consistently iterate standards expected. Both articles are accessible and worth reading. I don't really understand the "outdated" defense. "Unfair" is a predictable perspective. World Report Thailand 2017 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/thailand Thailand: Rights Crisis Deepens Under Dictatorship Empty Junta Promises to Return to Democracy, Respect Rights https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/01/12/thailand-rights-crisis-deepens-under-dictatorship It seems to be one of those "I am going to take my marbles and go home" statement. Talking about marbles sorry meant cards are they playing with a full deck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Maybe the PM should have said in detail where, when and how these criticisms of Thailand had improved... But there again me think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chainarong Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 7 hours ago, craigt3365 said: Spot on! But still happy the EU and the West are keeping up their pressure. Reform is desperately needed here. Starting with the judiciary!! The Judiciary go with flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvr181 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Always some else's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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