Earning online income while on a Thai retirement visa

[LivinLOS]

Yes I spent 10's of 1000s of GBP to leave Thailand go to the UK, set up a second home (car life etc), get an office, put staff in it to do work I can easily do myself, and have it run without my day to day interaction. That 40 - 60k GBP spent this summer was precisely because I am unable legally to operate online in Thailand. 

 

Your idea about my motives are your own.. My Tone is mine and will remain what it is. 

 

Those who come to Thailand with the express intention of violating tax and work permit laws deserve scorn. I have some sympathy for the brief traveller, but people living here in monthly apartments, buying vehicles, and spending large parts or more of each year here working and earning are abusing the system. Either be legal and pay your taxes or go to a jurisdiction which legally allows it. Coming here to live cheaply while avoiding the social contract, back home or here, is a bit too neo colonial for my tastes.. "well they are too poor to police it so its ok".. 

[jspill]

I wouldn't say Thailand is too poor to police it. It would be the easiest thing to walk into the Chiang Mai co-working spaces full of digital nomads. 

 

In fact they had some of those digital nomads in custody briefly then released them, they originally thought they were employees of Punspace, i.e. working in Thailand. If the police had an issue with working online (stuff like blogging, Youtube, etc. that has no physical presence in Thailand) then why were they released. 

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/

 

And there are public Facebook groups like 'Chiang Mai digital nomads' and 'Bangkok digital nomads' with tens of thousands of online workers in, 'digital nomad summit' events, meetups, etc.

 

Quote

people living here in monthly apartments, buying vehicles, and spending large parts or more of each year here working and earning

 

Pumping large amounts of money into the economy, shock horror! Worthy of such scorn! 

 

Often they're spending their entire incomes here, so even though they aren't paying 10% income tax (it would be about that low) that 10% ends up getting pumped into small businesses anyway. They're probably doing more for Thailand than someone paying 30% of their income to a BIO company.

[balo]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

but people living here in monthly apartments, buying vehicles, and spending large parts or more of each year here working and earning are abusing the system.

 

You must be joking right ? I have lived here now 5 years on and off , I kept my home address in Norway , I run an online business there while I'm living most of the time in Thailand. I am also over the age of 50 so I can get a 1 year visa, and not married.  

 

I have been buying condos, cars all in my own name , completely legal with money that I brought into this country . I have been following the law all the time.  Still I pay taxes to my home country and I always will .  Norway gets their tax money, Thailand gets the money I spend here .

 

Please try to understand our way of working online instead of putting a label on us all . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[JB300]

6 hours ago, jspill said:

I wouldn't say Thailand is too poor to police it. It would be the easiest thing to walk into the Chiang Mai co-working spaces full of digital nomads. 

 

In fact they had some of those digital nomads in custody briefly then released them, they originally thought they were employees of Punspace, i.e. working in Thailand. If the police had an issue with working online (stuff like blogging, Youtube, etc. that has no physical presence in Thailand) then why were they released. 

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/

 

And there are public Facebook groups like 'Chiang Mai digital nomads' and 'Bangkok digital nomads' with tens of thousands of online workers in, 'digital nomad summit' events, meetups, etc.

 

Quote

people living here in monthly apartments, buying vehicles, and spending large parts or more of each year here working and earning

 

Pumping large amounts of money into the economy, shock horror! Worthy of such scorn! 

 

Often they're spending their entire incomes here, so even though they aren't paying 10% income tax (it would be about that low) that 10% ends up getting pumped into small businesses anyway. They're probably doing more for Thailand than someone paying 30% of their income to a BIO company.

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[Edit: Don't know what's happened to the quotes here ^^^]

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To play devil's advocate, by that logic we should all be allowed to pay no taxes wherever we live as we would then be pumping more money into the local economy.

The problem is by not paying any taxes you're not contributing to the social/infrastructure expenses, Roads, Police/Emergency Services etc... (before anybody comments about the state of these in Thailand, if there were more taxes they could be improved).

FWIW I believe a lot of people working online would jump at the chance to be "Fully Legal" in Thailand & pay a reasonable amount of Tax (30% to an umbrella Corp sounds a bit high), but fact is that Thailand either doesn't see this "Opportunity" or doesn't want it (maybe they believe it will somehow harm future Thai jobs).

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, JB300 said:

 

Pumping large amounts of money into the economy, shock horror! Worthy of such scorn! 

 

Often they're spending their entire incomes here, so even though they aren't paying 10% income tax (it would be about that low) that 10% ends up getting pumped into small businesses anyway. They're probably doing more for Thailand than someone paying 30% of their income to a BIO company.

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[Edit: Don't know what's happened to the quotes here ^^^]

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To play devil's advocate, by that logic we should all be allowed to pay no taxes wherever we live as we would then be pumping more money into the local economy.

The problem is by not paying any taxes you're not contributing to the social/infrastructure expenses, Roads, Police/Emergency Services etc... (before anybody comments about the state of these in Thailand, if there were more taxes they could be improved).

FWIW I believe a lot of people working online would jump at the chance to be "Fully Legal" in Thailand & pay a reasonable amount of Tax (30% to an umbrella Corp sounds a bit high), but fact is that Thailand either doesn't see this "Opportunity" or doesn't want it (maybe they believe it will somehow harm future Thai jobs).

 

If it were 30% of Net-Profits to the umbrella company, that would be bad enough.  But it is 30% of gross-receipts - so an effective rate much higher - especially for an offshore company that pays offshore staff to do the day-to-day work.  A Visa conditioned on a Min-Tax-Paid requirement is all that is necessary.

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, balo said:

 

You must be joking right ? I have lived here now 5 years on and off , I kept my home address in Norway , I run an online business there while I'm living most of the time in Thailand. I am also over the age of 50 so I can get a 1 year visa, and not married.  

 

I have been buying condos, cars all in my own name , completely legal with money that I brought into this country . I have been following the law all the time.  Still I pay taxes to my home country and I always will .  Norway gets their tax money, Thailand gets the money I spend here .

 

Please try to understand our way of working online instead of putting a label on us all . 

 

I understand it.. I also understand its breaking Thai laws. 

 

If you wish to repeatedly visit a country, I suggest visiting one where you are able to live as you choose without breaking the law. 

 

[LivinLOS]

7 hours ago, jspill said:

I wouldn't say Thailand is too poor to police it. It would be the easiest thing to walk into the Chiang Mai co-working spaces full of digital nomads. 

 

Thailand is too poor, and then dependant on its tourist income, to do things which may damage that tourist income. Get it ?? Not too poor to walk a policeman in, they are too poor to damage the reputation by arresting tourists.. 

 

You then go on to justify the issue by saying how much they spend.. Cant you clearly see the point then ??

 

Nomads keep making this 'we are moving on' 'do you really expect someone whose here a month to incorporate' 'the system hasnt caught up' but then in future postings its 100% clear that the people making these arguments are not nomads, they basically might go to a home country occasionally, or pop for a weekend to another country but they live here, they are resident here, they have homes or condos here, and they are working here. The above excuses are merely convenient obfuscation for the fact. 

 

Then out comes the 'well I would love to pay tax... But.. well.. not quite that much'.. I didnt realize income tax was something you could negotiate, you either pay it, or go to a different regime. 

[JackThompson]

There is no viable option to obtain a visa in exchange for paying income-tax if your business or income comes from overseas.  Paying the actual tax-rate any Thai pays would be fine - no negotiations required.  Unfortunately, this is not an option, so my money stays out of Thailand for a year after being earned. 

 

If Thailand didn't want to risk offending tourists, many of the actions on the list I put on the prior page of this thread would not have happened - oil/gas workers, in particular, would be getting the red-carpet treatment upon entry.

[LivinLOS]

Sadly oil and gas workers have been punished for the crimes of the online workers.. In an effort to clamp down on those working illegally, the legal workers, like those who rotate outside of Thailand, end up paying the price. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by LivinLOS

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Sadly oil and gas workers have been punished for the crimes of the online workers.. In an effort to clamp down on those working illegally, the legal workers, like those who rotate outside of Thailand, end up paying the price. 

I don't think you are correct. The tightening up on visa exempt entries has been happening for years. It is because of people trying to live on them here by just doing an out/in trips for a new entry. They got tighter at airports when they had the big crack down on border runs for new entries in 2014.

In 2006 it was the 90 days in 6 months rule that was rescinded in 2008 when they changed land border entries to 15 days.

Now only 2 land border crossing per calendar year and the15 day rule rescinded.

[balo]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I understand it.. I also understand its breaking Thai laws. 

 

Nobody agree with you except your number 1 fan Lovethalandelite.

 

It's not breaking the Thai law to have a business in your own country , if you can not see that you do not understand much.

Anyone can be online in Thailand and communicate with the business back home . No Thais are involved, only a internet line. 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

9 hours ago, balo said:

 

Nobody agree with you except your number 1 fan Lovethalandelite.

 

It's not breaking the Thai law to have a business in your own country , if you can not see that you do not understand much.

Anyone can be online in Thailand and communicate with the business back home . No Thais are involved, only a internet line. 

 

 

 

You mean no one except the ministry of labor.. Or Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment.. Or Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO).

 

Those kind of people ?? the ones actually involved with the law. They have clearly stated when asked if a 100% online activity with no Thai connection whatsoever is working that "Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so" I am unsure how much clearer they can state it. 

[TheTurtle]

A question to add to the discussion....

 

Does the group feel that if I work in another country in Asia, then travel into Thailand via air monthly, stay 10 days, return overseas to work, have a retirement visa in Thailand....am I breaking the letter of the law, if not the Intent?

 

 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

A question to add to the discussion....

 

Does the group feel that if I work in another country in Asia, then travel into Thailand via air monthly, stay 10 days, return overseas to work, have a retirement visa in Thailand....am I breaking the letter of the law, if not the Intent?

 

There are many people that have extensions of stay (not a visa) based upon retirement that are working outside the the country and make frequent entries without a problem. There is no rule that limits the number of entries with a multiple re-entry permit nor the amount of time you can be outside the country.

If you had OA visa from an embassy it would be the same.

[LivinLOS]

32 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

A question to add to the discussion....

 

Does the group feel that if I work in another country in Asia, then travel into Thailand via air monthly, stay 10 days, return overseas to work, have a retirement visa in Thailand....am I breaking the letter of the law, if not the Intent?

 

 

 

 

Not in any way I can see..  You are only prohibited from working while inside Thailand. 

 

Of course if inside Thailand more than 180 days in any one calander year you should not bring money into Thailand you earn in that year.. If you do you need to decalre it and pay tax. Simply bring money earnt in previous years. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

44 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

Does the group feel that if I work in another country in Asia, then travel into Thailand via air monthly, stay 10 days, return overseas to work, have a retirement visa in Thailand....am I breaking the letter of the law, if not the Intent?

You do realize that obeying the law is only an option, don't you? It's a simple risk assessment - am I likely to get caught, and if so, how?

[balo]

 
You mean no one except the ministry of labor.. Or Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment.. Or Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO).
 
Those kind of people ?? the ones actually involved with the law. They have clearly stated when asked if a 100% online activity with no Thai connection whatsoever is working that "Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so" I am unsure how much clearer they can state it. 

Show me the link to the article about Phuket .

We have officials from immigration in Chiang Mai, the biggest city for digital nomads in S-E Asia . They have no issues about foreigners doing online business as long as they have a valid visa to stay in the kingdom and do not live here permanently. I think you can google that information that was posted here about 1 year ago.

And I have yet to see an official statement from Bangkok about digital nomads.

[LivinLOS]

21 minutes ago, balo said:

 

Show me the link to the article about Phuket .

We have officials from immigration in Chiang Mai, the biggest city for digital nomads in S-E Asia . They have no issues about foreigners doing online business as long as they have a valid visa to stay in the kingdom and do not live here permanently. I think you can google that information that was posted here about 1 year ago.

And I have yet to see an official statement from Bangkok about digital nomads.

 

 

 

 

A statement made by someone not involved with policing labor law.. What does your barber say about the issue.. Its about as relevant as the miss quoted immigration official. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

A statement made by someone not involved with policing labor law.. What does your barber say about the issue.. Its about as relevant as the miss quoted immigration official. 

Could you give us a real-life example of digital nomads who kept their door and their mouth shut actually being caught by Labor Department officials?

[Evilbaz]

48 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Not in any way I can see..  You are only prohibited from working while inside Thailand. 

 

Of course if inside Thailand more than 180 days in any one calander year you should not bring money into Thailand you earn in that year.. If you do you need to decalre it and pay tax. Simply bring money earnt in previous years. 

 

You keep spouting this last bit LiL but pray tell how a person retired here and living on pension or superannuation income can only bring in money from previous years?

My Canadian Pensions are taxed at source. My Australian Pension is Tax Exempt.

Please show where the Income requirement for a Visa or Extension based on Retirement specifies this tax requirement.

 

Or are we in your opinion not worthy enough to live in LOS?

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, Evilbaz said:

 

You keep spouting this last bit LiL but pray tell how a person retired here and living on pension or superannuation income can only bring in money from previous years?

My Canadian Pensions are taxed at source. My Australian Pension is Tax Exempt.

Please show where the Income requirement for a Visa or Extension based on Retirement specifies this tax requirement.

 

Or are we in your opinion not worthy enough to live in LOS?

 

The first way would be super simple, have a years savings to draw from.. Easy no ?? 

 

If that cannot be done it would depend on the type of pension, public or private.. There are allowances for social payments and dividends.. I mean you have read the code ?? Or do I have to do all your research for you (googles a wonderful tool). 

 

Try http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

 

But your right.. Private pensions from employment are almost certainly taxable, if I was to start drawing on a private pension plan now, and remitted that money in the same tax year to Thailand, even if it had been taxed at source it would be up to me to get that tax refunded due to being a non resident there, not here. How that operates with state pensions I have not researched. 

 

Specifically you could look at http://www.rd.go.th/publish/37749.0.html#section40

 

Where 

Quote

 

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

(1)    Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

 

Section 42.12 mentions inherited pensions and 'special pensions' without defining what special pensions are as far as I can see. 

 

If you look at this very clear guide from the noggie government in regard to state pensions 

http://download.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

 

Quote

2.1 Under Internal Regulations
In Thailand
In Thailand pension income is regarded as assessable income under Section
40 (1) of the Revenue Code. A resident of Thailand must declare his worldwide
income on the basis that the income received from abroad in a tax year must be
brought into Thailand within the same year, based on Section 41 paragraph 2 of the
Revenue Code.
Therefore for a Norwegian individual who has stayed in Thailand for more
than 180 days in a tax year shall declare his worldwide income including pension
income received in Norway and file tax return using the tax return form P.N.D. 90 or
P.N.D. 91 (if the individual only receives pension income, P.N.D. 91 will be used). Tax
calculation is on the net income where the Norwegian pensioners are entitled to
certain deductions applied also to the Thai resident pensioners. The filing period
lasts from 1 January to 31 March the year after the income is received

 

You can call it 'spouting' all you like but even 10 minutes research shows this to be the legal case. 

 

http://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax.php

Quote

 

Tax Is Levied As Follows

Wages paid in Thailand or abroad
Income earned by a person who resided in Thailand for a total of 180 days
Housing and meal allowances or their value
School fees for dependents paid for by employer
Cost of home leave for taxpayer and dependents
Capital gains arising from transfer of assets
Pensions and retirement pay brought into Thailand
Royalties
The tax due is assessed on the net taxable income at progressive rates ranging from 5% to 37%.

 

 

Dont bring in your pension the year you get it, have a modest cash buffer. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Could you give us a real-life example of digital nomads who kept their door and their mouth shut actually being caught by Labor Department officials?

 

You mean like this one ?? 

 

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

 

Quote

They will be charged under the Computer Crime Act BE 2550 for disseminating pornography from within the Kingdom, and for working without the correct visa and work permits.

 

[Evilbaz]

Can anyone provide proof of an example of a Pensioner living here being taxed on regular current payments being forwarded from their overseas account.

In practice it just doesn't happen.

Despite LivinginLos trying to scaremonger (because he can't find a way to avoid tax on earnings here - and good luck with that in the UK)

[TheTurtle]

All interesting points. To add to my discussion,  the income earned abroad has already been taxed by the Koreans, quite possibly the USA as well, no income was physically earned in Thailand....how possibly could they taX?

 

Again, on the idea one was using a retirement visa in Thailand 

[jspill]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You mean like this one ?? 

 

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

 

That's a group of 5 guys hiring a dedicated 50,000 baht floorspace with tons of computers and we don't know if the porn was filmed / paid for / marketed in Thailand, the article doesn't say. 

 

Digital nomads tend to be isolated individuals and doing something they could do anywhere. These guys were probably filming in Thailand and finding customers here because porn is banned even to watch in China, let alone film. That's not a digital nomad / remote worker. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You mean like this one ?? 

 

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

I'm not sure how a "website gang" who hire premises and involve others fits the criteria of:

1. a digital nomad and
2. keeps his mouth shut and
3. keeps his door shut

Edited January 19, 2017 by SaintLouisBlues

[balo]

LivinLOS, you need to find a better example than a Chinese porn gang .  

 

Digital nomads are all individuals living in Thailand for a shorter or longer time , with some business to take care of in their home country .  I am laughing every time you mention a work permit in Thailand. Because it is a silly comment to make in 2017 .

 

 If you want the Thai governnment to visit all the coffee shops in Thailand and asking all the tourists there with laptops what they are doing online, then good luck with that job .

  

 

 

 

[SaintLouisBlues]

9 minutes ago, balo said:

I am laughing every time you mention a work permit in Thailand. Because it is a silly comment to make in 2017.  If you want the Thai governnment to visit all the coffee shops in Thailand and asking all the tourists there with laptops what they are doing online, then good luck with that job.

You don't understand. The thought of numbers of people flouting the law and getting away with it is an affront to people like him

[Catoni]

On 1/14/2017 at 11:48 PM, ubonjoe said:

There is no  work visa.

You need a work permit to work.

Many people work online without a work permit. You just have to keep a low profile and you likely will not have a problem.

Many topics on this forum about it. Just search for digital nomads.

 

     I would think....  have a PayPal account.      have people send payment to your PayPal account....   and you can do transfers online from your PayPal account to your bank account.    Would that be enough to keep under the radar ? 

[Deepinthailand]

Just do it and don't post on here your doing it simple really.