Earning online income while on a Thai retirement visa

[wilinusa]

Do you need a Work Visa to operate an online company based in the USA while living in LOS? i.e. eBay

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[ubonjoe]

There is no  work visa.

You need a work permit to work.

Many people work online without a work permit. You just have to keep a low profile and you likely will not have a problem.

Many topics on this forum about it. Just search for digital nomads.

[Lite Beer]

You need a Work Permit.

You wont get one while on Retirement Immigration status.

Do as Joe says.

[LivinLOS]

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

The labor dept is the authoritative source for labor law. Statements made by others carry no weight. 

[Paul944]

It will almost be impossible to work as a remote worker in Thailand legally. The closest to legal you can get is leaving Thailand once a while and claim you make the money in the time you are not in Thailand, like an offshore worker. 

 

Maybe you can start a Thai contract agency, or find an existing one that acts as an intermediar and arranges visa and work permits. 

[jspill]

Since it's based in the US you won't have a problem. Those links above carry no weight either as they're from individual members of staff 7 years ago who will of course err on the side of caution, and the question makes it sound like a business is being started in Thailand. 

 

No court cases yet where a foreigner is convicted for doing something like you're asking. No clearly written policy to cover what you're doing, it's a grey area as to what 'work' is, probably intentionally kept grey so that they can have the last word. Just like many things in Thailand.

[RocketDog]

Delving into obscure legal questions like this is simply inviting attention and trouble from the Thai government in my opinion. Unless you are making ungodly amounts of money doing it, just let it go.

Confusus say: Man who dances with Elephant eventually gets trampled.

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[Maestro]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

The labor dept is the authoritative source for labor law. Statements made by others carry no weight. 

 

Your statement that the "labor dept", respectively the Department of Employment at the Ministry of Labour, is the "authoritative source for labor law" is correct, but neither of the two links you have given lead to a page on the website of the Ministry of Labour. Did you perhaps mean to give the following link?

 

http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/labour_law 

[SaintLouisBlues]

6 hours ago, wilinusa said:

Do you need a Work Visa to operate an online company based in the USA while living in LOS? i.e. eBay

How are "they" going to find out?

[balo]

As long as you have a visa to stay in Thailand you do not need a "work permit" to do some online activities , answering emails etc as long as your business is outside of Thailand.  

 

Today we are called digital nomads , it basically means you can work online from anywhere in the world from your laptop.  But you can not live in Thailand permanently  with this kind of job . You still need a home address in your country, paying taxes there and receive your salary into a US bank account .  

 

Don't listen to some posters claiming you need a Thai work permit.  As long as you work from your hotel or condo in Thailand  , and alone without involving any locals there should be no problem. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Your statement that the "labor dept", respectively the Department of Employment at the Ministry of Labour, is the "authoritative source for labor law" is correct, but neither of the two links you have given lead to a page on the website of the Ministry of Labour. Did you perhaps mean to give the following link?

 

http://www.mol.go.th/en/anonymouse/labour_law 

 

 

Both sources include someone from the employment office, the people in charge of work permit processing and an authoritative source on who does and doesn't need one. 

 

My point is, the random opinions of anyone other than the officials in charge of implementing and controlling labor law is relatively worthless. Quoting immigration, tourist police, or what the bloke down the pub said is simply asking people who are not relevant. 

[stevenl]

Since it's based in the US you won't have a problem. Those links above carry no weight either as they're from individual members of staff 7 years ago who will of course err on the side of caution, and the question makes it sound like a business is being started in Thailand. 
 
No court cases yet where a foreigner is convicted for doing something like you're asking. No clearly written policy to cover what you're doing, it's a grey area as to what 'work' is, probably intentionally kept grey so that they can have the last word. Just like many things in Thailand.

It is not a grey area, but clearly black.
Enforcement is a different matter though.

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[LivinLOS]

15 hours ago, jspill said:

Those links above carry no weight either as they're from individual members of staff 7 years ago who will of course err on the side of caution, and the question makes it sound like a business is being started in Thailand. 

 

You see this is the kind of miss information that people who wish to avoid Thai tax and labor law continue to propagate. 

 

Please read Both these carefully..

Quote

 

Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work?

I have a YouTube channel showing a video diary of my travels around Thailand – promoting the country and activities here.

I am trying to understand what laws I need to be aware of in relation to my current and past activities. Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work? Does it matter if I have YouTube ads turned on or off?

I have many other videos on my channel, which I made 100 per cent outside Thailand – before my arrival. If I have ads turned on and am being paid for these past activities while I am in the Kingdom, is this considered work?

 

 

Quote

Do I need a ‘business visa’ to work online?
Is earning money through online advertising, website affiliate marketing or operating a business that has only an online presence whilst staying in Thailand considered working? Would that person be required to have a “business visa”

 

..and ask yourself how any fair minded person would indicate these questions relate to the setting up of a Thai business.

 

Once you see the kind of mental lies the posters who claim this is ok are saying to you and themselves. You start to get a picture of the kind of bias they are presenting to the topic. 

 

The law is clear, the labor dept is clear, the tax law is clear, and the reasons they act the way they do (scared to damage a tourist industry) is clear.. everything about it is clear, the only aspect which is grey is the country is too poor to truly enforce its laws as tourism is a vital industry and must be protected. Enforcement is lax (but despite what they say has happened). 

[silent]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

 

You see this is the kind of miss information that people who wish to avoid Thai tax and labor law continue to propagate. 

 

Please read Both these carefully..

 

 

..and ask yourself how any fair minded person would indicate these questions relate to the setting up of a Thai business.

 

Once you see the kind of mental lies the posters who claim this is ok are saying to you and themselves. You start to get a picture of the kind of bias they are presenting to the topic. 

 

The law is clear, the labor dept is clear, the tax law is clear, and the reasons they act the way they do (scared to damage a tourist industry) is clear.. everything about it is clear, the only aspect which is grey is the country is too poor to truly enforce its laws as tourism is a vital industry and must be protected. Enforcement is lax (but despite what they say has happened). 

I think they need to change from LOS to LOA, the land of authorities.

[sandgroper2]

A dozen answers with many more to come, so I too would like to add my indepth response.           Yes.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

The law is clear, the labor dept is clear, the tax law is clear, and the reasons they act the way they do (scared to damage a tourist industry) is clear.. everything about it is clear, the only aspect which is grey is the country is too poor to truly enforce its laws as tourism is a vital industry and must be protected. Enforcement is lax (but despite what they say has happened). 

 

Thailand's labor law has not been amended to reflect the current reality of non-brick-mortar business and remote-workers.  Enforcement could begin at any time, and would be evidenced by roundups at the many co-working spaces where thousands flagrantly break this law, and have for years, without prosecution. 

 

One could ask, "How would Thailand profit from such a move?" - but I would not rely on such thinking, as recent visa-related actions indicate a willingness to sacrifice expat-income for another agenda.  We could read of hundreds of arrests of this nature in tomorrow's newspaper.  Tourism is profitable, but not sacrosanct, in the current environment.

 

Consider recent changes to visa-policy (including visa-exempts):

• Oil/Gas workers with no practical visa they can get in the area being denied visa-exempt entries.  Passport history clearly shows they could not be working in Thailand, and they can provide proof of their jobs/incomes.
• Expats in Cambodia and Laos who can no longer do their weekly shopping in Thailand.  This, after the 15-day rule and the "six ever" history-check had already made visa-exempts useless for long stayers.  Passport history clearly shows they could not be working in Thailand.
• Increasing difficulty of doing straightforward retirement and marriage extensions at many immigration offices - often forcing people into paying dodgy agents.  No change to the process that would affect whether or not the applicant is working illegally.
• Raising the required "investment" amount for a visa based on investment by 3x+, so that purchase of a 3-M Baht condo no longer qualifies, greatly reducing the purchase of new condos and expats living in them.
• TM-30 fines and harassment - make a 2-day trip somewhere, and be punished with hours at an immigration office and/or needing your landlord to sign-off on every trip you make - with wild variations in the fees or compliance requirements at different offices.
• Not offering the Multi-Entry Tourist Visa in the region.  Its financial-requirements already weed-out most who would seek a Thai job.  Any verifications could be done through the applicant's native Thai consulate for an additional fee.

Top that off with not providing a visa-option that would allow millions of people with remote-work or offshore-businesses from obtaining long-stay visas.  Cambodia, Philippines, and Vietnam provide easy long-stay visas for younger people.  Thailand can either grab a piece of the action - leveraging its generally higher development and relative low cost of living - or forgo the revenue from a fast-growing global workforce. 

 

From my perspective, long-stayers are generally being discouraged -  in some areas of the country more than others - and only short-term visitors still have an unobstructed path.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Raising the required "investment" amount for a visa based on investment by 3x+, so that purchase of a 3-M Baht condo no longer qualifies, greatly reducing the purchase of new condos and expats living in them.

That happened over 10 years ago. The 3 million baht investment was done due to the glut of condos after 1997. It was 10 million baht for many years before that.

[themerg]

Be careful and low key. Use PayPal to a foreign Bank. Do not tell anyone in Thailand. People everywhere, even in Thailand, can be vengeful.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by themerg

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That happened over 10 years ago. The 3 million baht investment was done due to the glut of condos after 1997. It was 10 million baht for many years before that.

 

Good info.  By the looks of the condo market in my area (and surrounding closed-businesses), it's time for a reboot of that scheme.  Not that I personally mind the low-rent / high-quality differential as it is, but glad I am not dependent on income from condo-rentals.

[NoshowJones]

Just do your online work, and keep your mouth shut.

[LPCustom69]

I think what will eventually happen is that they will require ALL banking information from those who fit in certain categories (backpackers with laptops) to verify what they are doing.

 

Technically, if you stay longer than 183 days in Thailand, you owe taxes on income.

 

Technically, you have to use a previous years income brought into Thailand.

 

Once they figure out how to verify via different accounts owned by an individual, they can proceed and prosecute/expel.

 

It will affect legitimate individuals staying in LOS also.

[balo]

22 minutes ago, LPCustom69 said:

Once they figure out how to verify via different accounts owned by an individual, they can proceed and prosecute/expel.

 

Verify that I have a bank account in my country ?  Not sure what you are trying to tell us .  

 

All my income is coming from my home country and I spend my money in Thailand. I think I have contributed with more than  3 million baht here. If they do not like that then all of us need to relocate to Cambodia but that would be a very strange thing to do . Thais are not that stupid you know. They like to do business with foreigners and we have money to spend , its a win win situation for all. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by balo

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, LPCustom69 said:

Once they figure out how to verify via different accounts owned by an individual, they can proceed and prosecute/expel.

 

 

 

And how would they manage that for non Thai bank accounts, which they need to work out when the money was made ?? 

[JackThompson]

10 hours ago, LPCustom69 said:

I think what will eventually happen is that they will require ALL banking information from those who fit in certain categories (backpackers with laptops) to verify what they are doing.

Technically, if you stay longer than 183 days in Thailand, you owe taxes on income.

Technically, you have to use a previous years income brought into Thailand.

Once they figure out how to verify via different accounts owned by an individual, they can proceed and prosecute/expel.

 

It will affect legitimate individuals staying in LOS also.

 

Aside form identifying "backpackers with laptops" (what if they use other luggage?) ... Those who have at least a 1-year cushion of funds - the sort of people most desired - would not owe tax, but would object to the conditions and leave.  Those younger, with less savings but good incomes would also leave.  It would result in a mass evacuation of expats of all sorts.  You could say, "Well they don't deserve to live here if they won't comply."  Ok, but Thailand would be poorer in the end, because Thailand is not the only nation on Earth. 

 

The only way I see for Thailand to entice people to bring part of their "this year" income into Thailand, and to declare it, would be to offer a long-stay visa in exchange.  This offer can be marginally more expensive than the nearly-free offers of Vietnam and Cambodia, but with some perks, such as an "permit to work for non-Thai, offshore entities" and easy-visa process.   A minimum quarterly income (evidenced by Thai-taxes paid on it) would be a condition.  Where bilateral tax-treaties are relevant, this would not increase the applicant's overall tax-burden.  Something is better than nothing.

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And how would they manage that for non Thai bank accounts, which they need to work out when the money was made ?? 

All of my bank accounts are offshore from Thailand except a small transaction account and a term deposit in my name which is not my funds as I've explained elsewhere, which supports my retirement visa renewal (or extension - just joking). If I earn any income while I'm in Thailand it's from offshore activities and is banked overseas

[jspill]

On 16/01/2017 at 6:47 AM, LivinLOS said:

 

Once you see the kind of mental lies the posters who claim this is ok are saying to you and themselves. You start to get a picture of the kind of bias they are presenting to the topic.

 

As I understand it you have some affiliation with BOI companies, where one hands over 30% of their salary each month to be given a work permit? Perhaps you also have your own bias. 

[LivinLOS]

10 minutes ago, jspill said:

 

As I understand it you have some affiliation with BOI companies, where one hands over 30% of their salary each month to be given a work permit? Perhaps you also have your own bias. 

 

No affiliation whatsoever.. 

[jspill]

I seem to recall you use Iglu's service or similar and had handed out tens of thousands of GBP/EUR to be a 'legal' (by your definition) digital nomad here? It was in another thread. 

[LivinLOS]

Only in your mind.. I left Thailand to work, set up business up in the west this last year, and employ staff to manage my enterprise. I leave the country when I wish to be hands on. Also helps that my business can shut down for winter months and I am reducing my time here to remain 100% compliant. 

 

I have never used iglus services, been to thier offices, or am connected to them in any way. 

 

I do know 3 legal freelance workers, who all use them and are very happy with the service. I have also bumped into the owner socially and at a few functions etc. Thats the full extent of my connection with them. 

[jspill]

'Why is it I can pay 10s of 1000s of GBP to precisely stick to the letter of the law but you feel its absurd' - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/957999-9-months-of-visa-exemptions-back-to-back-after-2-year-overstay/?page=2#comment-11463482. 

 

You mention BOI companies like Iglu a lot in that thread, and tell posters to 'obey the law or leave'.

 

No offence but you aren't a moderator and don't represent Thailand's laws, so don't post in such a tone.

 

When someone is extremely adamant about this kind of thing they're usually working some kind of monetary / affiliate angle... just my two cents.