Lawyer for Wills...Price?

[luther]

This has been beaten to death on this forum, but I'm asking in case anyone has new information. How much should a will covering Thai assets cost?

The only quote I have received is 10,000 baht for myself and 10,000 baht for my wife. This is about the same as we paid for wills in the US.

 

No land, house, or condo involved.

[Rotweiler]

Free.

 

1,  Make an english draft of what you want your will to be.

2.  Go to your amphur office and ask for the person responsible for wills.

3.  They (assuming they have someone who understands English) will translate it into Thai and register it; giving you a code number the executor of your will can obtain a certified copy in the event the registrant passes away.

 

Simple - you can top them a few Baht.

 

In the event the office doesn't have an english reader, go to one of the translators in the city and have them translate it for you.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Rotweiler
typo

[chiang mai]

The Amphur will doesn't avoid the need for Probate and probate is required where any complexity or large assets exist and a Thai lawyer is essential for that Court. The Amphur will was designed and is intended for use by locals where assets are minimal and no complexity exists.

 

OP - 6k/10k sounds about right, more 6k than 10k however - have you tried Kuhn Sumalee at 29 Tanin, she is now back and active once again.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by chiang mai

[canthai55]

December 2016 - 10,000 baht via law professor. Includes probate after I am up in smoke. Legal and Business Chiang Mai.

Edited January 16, 2017 by canthai55

[Rotweiler]

Whether you have a lawyer draft a will with the associated costs, or have it done by the amphur office (minimal cost if any), you STILL will require probate.  That is a requirement in most countries of the world, including Thailand.

 

If your will if tricky, or very complex, I would agree with CM.  If it is a "normal" will with minimal complexities, go the amphur route.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

December 2016 - 10,000 baht via law professor. Includes probate after I am up in smoke. Legal and Business Chiang Mai.

 

So 10,000 baht includes probate, hmm, do you have that in writing and is there a guarantee? The reason I ask the question is because probate in Thailand typically costs between 1.5% and 2.5% of the value of an estate and Probate Court fees and costs alone are not small.

[opalred]

if you go to district courthouse

in front to left are trained lawyers

there is man speaks English and a women

done heaps of work for many fralangs 

at half the cost of others

www.cmimc.coj.go.th

 

 

[luther]

36 minutes ago, Rotweiler said:

Whether you have a lawyer draft a will with the associated costs, or have it done by the amphur office (minimal cost if any), you STILL will require probate.  That is a requirement in most countries of the world, including Thailand.

 

If your will if tricky, or very complex, I would agree with CM.  If it is a "normal" will with minimal complexities, go the amphur route.

It's just bank accounts and cars being transferred to one spouse or the other. 

I find it hard to believe that would require probate if there was a legitimate will. 

It certainly wouldn't in the US.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, luther said:

It's just bank accounts and cars being transferred to one spouse or the other. 

I find it hard to believe that would require probate if there was a legitimate will. 

It certainly wouldn't in the US.

 

Coincidently I received a letter this afternoon following my questions to the Director of Legal Affairs at my bank in Thailand asking for details of their process for transferring bank accounts upon death. It starts off by saying, "transfer shall only be made by the Administrator appointed by the Court who shall show the courts orders ......"

 

 

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, luther said:

No land, house, or condo involved

The OP has said above that it is NOT complex.

 

If only bank account(s) are involved for the other half to get access does the local Amphur office method work.

 

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

The OP has said above that it is NOT complex.

 

If only bank account(s) are involved for the other half to get access does the local Amphur office method work.

 

 

 

Please see Post 9 above regarding my banks requirements.

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, luther said:

It's just bank accounts and cars being transferred to one spouse or the other. 

I find it hard to believe that would require probate if there was a legitimate will. 

It certainly wouldn't in the US.

 

As for bank accounts (unless you're talking a joint account with survivorship features), you're wrong....a probate would be required (although a very simple and quick deal is available if the assets are under a set (usually $5,000-$6,000) value.  As for titled vehicles in the states, most states have now adopted a separate procedure for those and will transfer the title to the heir named in a valid Will without the need for probate.

 

Here in Thailand, probate would be required for transfer of both a titled vehicle or bank account to another person.

 

Edit:  There have been a few cases where people have said that some banks have on occasion transferred a bank account to an heir in a Will without the need for probate (but that hasn't occurred in any case I know about).  You could go ask your particular bank how they handle it (but I'll bet you 5 baht they'll require a probate order before they'll transfer any amount to anybody).

Edited January 16, 2017 by CMBob

[millwall_fan]

My wife says that as she is my lawful wedded wife she doesn't need me to get a will as she can get probate on the strength of our marriage in order to access my bank accounts. Is she correct?

 

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, millwall_fan said:

My wife says that as she is my lawful wedded wife she doesn't need me to get a will as she can get probate on the strength of our marriage in order to access my bank accounts. Is she correct?

 

 

I believe your wife is correct, BUT, I'm not sure she can avoid probate despite that fact - perhaps others with more knowledge can comment, NancyL specifically?

Edited January 16, 2017 by chiang mai

[CMBob]

17 minutes ago, millwall_fan said:

My wife says that as she is my lawful wedded wife she doesn't need me to get a will as she can get probate on the strength of our marriage in order to access my bank accounts. Is she correct?

 

 

One doesn't need a Will to have their assets probated.  If there's no Will, then the assets through probate here in Thailand will be distributed to the statutory next of kin under the Thai Commercial Code (intestacy laws).  And you might want to check those rules out (you can google it).  For example only, if you left children, parents, or full-blood brothers and/or sisters, your wife will only get half).  

 

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by CMBob

[millwall_fan]

30 minutes ago, CMBob said:

 

One doesn't need a Will to have their assets probated.  If there's no Will, then the assets through probate here in Thailand will be distributed to the statutory next of kin under the Thai Commercial Code (intestacy laws).  And you might want to check those rules out (you can google it).  For example only, if you left children, parents, or full-blood brothers and/or sisters, your wife will only get half).  

 

 

Thanks for that. I do have close relatives in UK, but they love my wife and would make no claim on my estate. 

[CMBob]

2 hours ago, millwall_fan said:

Thanks for that. I do have close relatives in UK, but they love my wife and would make no claim on my estate. 

 

Ok, I'll try one last time so you can see the light (i.e., if you have any significant assets here, any of the mentioned categories of relatives, and you want your Wife to get all your assets, then make a Will!).

 

Your wife in probate has to truthfully sign a form  saying who is related to you.  If any of the mentioned categories show up, the Court is not going to give your Wife all the assets here....likely she'll only get half (the Thai Probate Court doesn't have an option to just ignore the statutory intestacy law).  Yes, there is a method for your other relatives to decline their interests but that involves signing some documents, getting them certified by some embassy, and a bunch of hassle that nobody wants to go through.  The easiest (and smartest) method is for you to make a Will. 

 

Do your Wife a favor and make a Will.   

[scottiejohn]

3 hours ago, CMBob said:

 

One doesn't need a Will to have their assets probated.  If there's no Will, then the assets through probate here in Thailand will be distributed to the statutory next of kin under the Thai Commercial Code (intestacy laws).  And you might want to check those rules out (you can google it).  For example only, if you left children, parents, or full-blood brothers and/or sisters, your wife will only get half).  

 

 

I am confused.  Are there any qualified lawyers/legal persons posting above.  The OED has the following to say about wills/probate

 

Probate
noun the official proving of a will. A verified copy of a will with a certificate as handed to the executors.

verb.  North American establish the validity of (a will).

 

Will
a legal document containing instructions for the disposition of one's money and property after one's death.

It therefore follows that before you can have 'probate' you must have a 'will'.

 

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Please see Post 9 above regarding my banks requirements

Since I/we are not privy to your bank correspondence in total and you only quote part of their response how does your answer in any way clarify my question?.

 

The OP asked a very simple question.  Does anyone with accurate knowledge know the definitive answer.  I would love to know the answer if it is available.

Edited January 16, 2017 by scottiejohn

[elektrified]

4 hours ago, luther said:

It's just bank accounts and cars being transferred to one spouse or the other. 

I find it hard to believe that would require probate if there was a legitimate will. 

It certainly wouldn't in the US.

Oh yes it would require probate in the USA; that is unless you have a "Living Trust" which costs a fortune to set up and taxes must be paid as well.

[CMBob]

Scottiejohn, your use of the word "probate" is incorrect, it being better described in the case of death as the process by which the decedent's assets are legally passed to somebody else.  If one has a valid Will, the Court will ultimately issue an order saying whoever's named in the Will gets the assets.  As part of that process, the Court would first determine if the Will is valid (which is almost always the case.....presuming it's properly signed and witnessed, nobody claims the decendent was forced to sign it, nobody claims the decedent was mentally incompetent to make the will, etc.).

 

If one doesn't have a Will, then the Court will issue an order which distributes the assets to those people who are entitled to the stuff under the statutory (intestacy) law.

[elektrified]

CMBob is correct.

[elektrified]

3 hours ago, CMBob said:

 

As for bank accounts (unless you're talking a joint account with survivorship features), you're wrong....a probate would be required (although a very simple and quick deal is available if the assets are under a set (usually $5,000-$6,000) value.  As for titled vehicles in the states, most states have now adopted a separate procedure for those and will transfer the title to the heir named in a valid Will without the need for probate.

 

Here in Thailand, probate would be required for transfer of both a titled vehicle or bank account to another person.

 

Edit:  There have been a few cases where people have said that some banks have on occasion transferred a bank account to an heir in a Will without the need for probate (but that hasn't occurred in any case I know about).  You could go ask your particular bank how they handle it (but I'll bet you 5 baht they'll require a probate order before they'll transfer any amount to anybody).

There have been cases and here in Chiang Mai I recall a few years ago that one of the major banks was sued to hell and back for releasing considerable funds (I think 10 Million Baht) to a young Thai wife only less than a week after the death, when the decedent had adult children back in Europe or America - I forget now. The Will was probated there and foreign assets listed. They came and hired a bulldog Bangkok lawyer to recover the money. I bet the banks are MUCH more careful now.

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

I am confused.  Are there any qualified lawyers/legal persons posting above.  The OED has the following to say about wills/probate

 

Probate
noun the official proving of a will. A verified copy of a will with a certificate as handed to the executors.

verb.  North American establish the validity of (a will).

 

Will
a legal document containing instructions for the disposition of one's money and property after one's death.

It therefore follows that before you can have 'probate' you must have a 'will'.

 

Since I/we are not privy to your bank correspondence in total and you only quote part of their response how does your answer in any way clarify my question?.

 

The OP asked a very simple question.  Does anyone with accurate knowledge know the definitive answer.  I would love to know the answer if it is available.

 

YOU asked the question, if only bank accounts are involved does the Amphur route work. I responded by quoting my bank who stated that Probate (Court) is required. The answer to your question is, in the case of my bank, NO!

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

YOU asked the question, if only bank accounts are involved does the Amphur route work. I responded by quoting my bank who stated that Probate (Court) is required. The answer to your question is, in the case of my bank, NO!

 

I've just seen that my answer is incomplete, here's the longer more complete answer:

 

When you ask, "does the Amphur route work", the assumption was that the Amphur route is used to save money on legal fees, rather than spending 6/10k on a lawyer to prepare a will, the Amphur will record a will for about 150 baht - in that respect the Amphur route does save money initially.

 

But using the Amphur route does not eliminate the need for the will to be subjected to Probate and this requires a Thai lawyer is used, in that respect the cost of Probate will be the same which ever route is used. Many expats seem to think that using the Amphur route allows them to save 10k in lawyer fees and that's the end of any expense, it isn't.

 

The major drawbacks to the Amphur route are that: the will can specify "all" or "everything", account numbers for example and current vehicles make/model/year must be specific - it therefore follows that an Amphur will must be kept current and remade as assets change. The second drawback is that the Amphur will does not contain sufficient legal "boiler plate" to overcome legal challenges by dissatisfied parties - a desire to not leave assets to a particular party cannot be recorded.

 

Which ever approach is used banks in Thailand will demand a probated will, one that has been approved by the Probate Court, before assets are transferred to a beneficiary, as per the letter from  my bank that I quoted earlier.

 

 

[NancyL]

I have been involved in several situations where Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew released a bank account without probate, where the estate was very simple -- Final Will, with both the executor and beneficiary as the same person and all parties involved and their intent prior to death were known to the local bank officials.  Usually this was to return the 800,000 baht on deposit to maintain someone's retirement visa and other smaller accounts.  The money isn't refunded immediately, but all documents are sent to Bangkok for approval, so there is a 30 day period for someone to come forward to make objection.

 

But, this isn't true of all banks and if something is the least bit amiss, Bangkok Bank won't do it either.  They'll insist on waiting until the Final Will is probated.  (What do I mean by amiss, oh like the deceased had a bank account his wife didn't know about, but he used to keep his mistress, who still has the ATM card.)

 

And to avoid the bank having its chestnuts on the fire in case some overseas relatives sail in and demand the money, the bank requires a third party sign off as a "guaranteer".  i.e. someone of good stature, known to the bank and who has funds on deposit in excess of the amount being claimed.  That person will be the one hit up if some unknown relative pops up.

 

It's been my (somewhat limited experience) that probate is needed if other property is involved, like vehicles.  Even a crummy little motorscooter.  Know of one case where the cost of the probate 30,000 baht exceeded the value of the motorscooter.

 

As for the idea that your Thai wife will "get everything" so no need to bother with a Final Will.  This is wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you have any children, anywhere in the world, they inherit at the same level as your wife.  So your joint bank account will be split between your adult children you haven't talked to you in decades and your wife.  And everything will be delayed while your children are located.  

 

Plus, if you've ever been married before, you'll be surprised at how often former spouses turn up to challenge the validity of your Thai marriage.  You may find that you were never properly divorced in your home country.  I know of cases, where women have come from overseas and been successful in evicting their not-really-former husband's Thai "wife" from their condo and claiming ownership.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I have been involved in several situations where Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew released a bank account without probate, where the estate was very simple -- Final Will, with both the executor and beneficiary as the same person and all parties involved and their intend prior to death were known to the local bank officials.  Usually this was to return the 800,000 baht on deposit to maintain someone's retirement visa and other smaller accounts.  The money isn't refunded immediately, but all documents are sent to Bangkok for approval, so there is a 30 day period for someone to come forward to make objection.

 

And to avoid the bank having its chestnuts on the fire in case some overseas relatives sail in and demand the money, the bank requires a third party sign off as a "guaranteer".  i.e. someone of good stature, known to the bank and who has funds on deposit in excess of the amount being claimed.  That person will be the one hit up if some unknown relative pops up.

 

It's been my (somewhat limited experience) that probate is needed if other property is involved, like vehicles.  Even a crummy little motorscooter.  Know of one case where the cost of the probate 30,000 baht exceeded the value of the motorscooter.

 

As for the idea that your Thai wife will "get everything" so no need to bother with a Final Will.  This is wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you have any children, anywhere in the world, they inherit at the same level as your wife.  So your joint bank account will be split between your adult children you haven't talked to you in decades and your wife.  And everything will be delayed while your children are located.  

 

Plus, if you've ever been married before, you'll be surprised at how often former spouses turn up to challenge the validity of your Thai marriage.  You may find that you were never properly divorced in your home country.  I know of cases, where women have come from overseas and been successful in evicting their not-really-former husband's Thai "wife" from their condo and claiming ownership.

 

Many thanks for filling in some of the gaps but maybe in doing so another one just opened up!

 

If Bangkok Bank was prepared to release funds without probate it calls into question how they knew the estate was very simple and limited only to the 800k account, was this judged solely on the basis of the contents of the Will and was BB privy to the contents of the will?

[NancyL]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Many thanks for filling in some of the gaps but maybe in doing so another one just opened up!

 

If Bangkok Bank was prepared to release funds without probate it calls into question how they knew the estate was very simple and limited only to the 800k account, was this judged solely on the basis of the contents of the Will and was BB privy to the contents of the will?

Yes, the original Final Will was presented to Bangkok Bank and they made copies to send to the Home Office.  My husband and I have ours "on file" at Bangkok Bank, but since then I've been told they're not interested in keeping them and they just want to see the original when the executor comes to settle the estate.

 

Also, they knew the estate was "simple" because they knew the deceased and the deceased, how & where the person lived and that person had made his/her wishes known prior to death.   

[scottiejohn]

So I have taken onboard that even the 'simple' 'I only have one dependant and one bank account' scenario needs a proper will from the start since none of us know what 'skeletons' are waiting to pounce.

[Dante99]

18 hours ago, elektrified said:

Oh yes it would require probate in the USA; that is unless you have a "Living Trust" which costs a fortune to set up and taxes must be paid as well.

I thought a living trust was a simple document a lawyer could prepare for 1-2 thousand dollars, small compared to the cost of probate.  

[luther]

A living trust in the US doesn't cost a fortune and is well worth the fees if you have a moderate amount of money.

I have a couple appointments with lawyers this week and will report back.  Thanks for all the comments.  Amazing how many relative well-off Thais I have talked to who have a parent  or two in their 80's, but no will..."just a letter my father wrote, but nobody can reading his handwriting."