Muslims suffer because of Europe’s terror laws – Amnesty

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, thai3 said:

 

No it's not, you are trying to change the topic, again. It is about AI's report on just one community, the Muslim one and one that causes more problems and terrorism than any other in Europe, face up to it.

What is it about

On ‎18‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 11:44 AM, 7by7 said:

It is undisputable that the major terrorism threat, to the West at least, today comes from Islamic extremists

 

that you don't understand?

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The topic is about how innocent members of communities who do not support terrorism in any way are blamed by ignorant, prejudiced people for the actions of those terrorists merely because they have something in common with the terrorists.

 

Nope. The topic is about assertions made by Amnesty that Europe anti-terror legislation might discriminate against Muslims. It is not as vehement as your presentation nor an absolute truth.

 

And the options are not either/or. It is not that anti-terrorism rules are all bad, unneeded or counterproductive. If it was up to Amnesty the deterioration in security conditions would be considered secondary to certain groups rights. I'm pretty sure that such legislation is not enacted without input from professionals, who are aware of the cons and pros. Obviously, not all subscribe to your point of view, or see the scenarios as similar.

 

Hence my references to the disastrous Operation Demetrius.

 

Of course, certain people, not you, have used this topic to repeat their ignorant hate and prejudice; as they do in any topic with the words Muslim or Islam in them!

[Morch]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

Hence my references to the disastrous Operation Demetrius.

 

Of course, certain people, not you, have used this topic to repeat their ignorant hate and prejudice; as they do in any topic with the words Muslim or Islam in them!

 

You can reference whatever UK related issue you like, it still doesn't necessarily make it relevant. I have no idea who came up with the headline for the OP, but it was bound to irk some people. Whether this was intentional or not, can't say.

 

 

 

[7by7]

From the OP

On ‎17‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 11:22 PM, webfact said:

Read the full report here

That link does not take you to the Amnesty report; it takes you to a report by Pew Research.

 

The report itself can be downloaded from here. 

 

Sensationalist headlines and selected quotes do not give the full picture of that report.

 

The opening paragraph:-

Quote

Hundreds of people were killed and wounded in a spate of violent attacks in European Union (EU) states between January 2015 and December 2016. They were shot by armed men, blown up in suicide bomb attacks and deliberately run over as they walked in the street. These callous crimes did not just target individuals; they were also attacks on societies, on how people live and what people think. The need to protect people from such wanton violence is obvious and urgent. Upholding the right to life, enabling people to live freely, to move freely, to think freely: these are essential tasks for any government. But they are not tasks that can be achieved by any means. Crucially, they are not tasks that should, or can, be achieved by riding roughshod over the very rights that governments are purporting to uphold.

 

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You can reference whatever UK related issue you like, it still doesn't necessarily make it relevant. I have no idea who came up with the headline for the OP, but it was bound to irk some people. Whether this was intentional or not, can't say.

 

You are saying that you cannot see the relevance between an historical anti terrorist operation which did exactly the opposite of what it aimed to do and the likelihood of a similar operation having the same negative effects?

 

I agree that the headline is provocative, see my post above.

[thai3]

Of course Amnesty's report would be more realistic if it was about Muslims suffering in Europe  because of Islam

Edited January 19, 2017 by thai3

[canuckamuck]

2 minutes ago, thai3 said:

Of course Amnesty's report would be more realistic if it was about Muslims suffering in Europe  because of Islam

Sorry first world peoples are not allowed to be victims.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

You are saying that you cannot see the relevance between an historical anti terrorist operation which did exactly the opposite of what it aimed to do and the likelihood of a similar operation having the same negative effects?

 

I agree that the headline is provocative, see my post above.

 

What is it with the constant twisting of words? I did not say what you claim. The scope of my comment was just that your example may not be as relevant as you present. You assume that the circumstances underlying both situations are similar, or that the application of means and rules will be similar  There is no particular incentive to accept such assumptions without question.

[7by7]

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

You are saying that you cannot see the relevance between an historical anti terrorist operation which did exactly the opposite of what it aimed to do and the likelihood of a similar operation having the same negative effects?

 

I agree that the headline is provocative, see my post above.

 

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What is it with the constant twisting of words? I did not say what you claim. The scope of my comment was just that your example may not be as relevant as you present. You assume that the circumstances underlying both situations are similar, or that the application of means and rules will be similar  There is no particular incentive to accept such assumptions without question.

 

I did not twist words, I did not claim that you said anything. I asked you a question; indicated by my use of a question mark!

 

For the elimination of doubt; a question mark looks like ?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

I did not twist words, I did not claim that you said anything. I asked you a question; indicated by my use of a question mark!

 

For the elimination of doubt; a question mark looks like ?

 

My point was rather simple, and clear. You chose to load it with your leading"interpretation", masked as a question. Happy now?

 

[7by7]

Just now, Morch said:

 

My point was rather simple, and clear. You chose to load it with your leading"interpretation", masked as a question. Happy now?

 

 

Are you saying that if anyone asks you a question about something you have said that you see that as twisting your words and claiming you said something you didn't?

 

Why not simply answer the question?

 

The above are two questions; indicated as such by the use of ?

[Morch]

48 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Are you saying that if anyone asks you a question about something you have said that you see that as twisting your words and claiming you said something you didn't?

 

Why not simply answer the question?

 

The above are two questions; indicated as such by the use of ?

 

Troll on.

[overherebc]

On 18/01/2017 at 9:51 AM, canuckamuck said:

Yes, Amnesty international should really be campaigning against Islam due to its continual repression, cruelty, persecution and atrocities committed against Muslims and some Europeans.

 

Can't do that. There's no money in it.

[overherebc]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I understand it, Amnesty was set up to help people banged up for political reasons, so why are they getting into stuff that is nowhere near their reason for being?

 

Funds/Money/ Publicity

[Grubster]

Amnesty loses all credibility here. The people of these formerly peaceful countries will have to decide soon how they are going to counteract these violent intruders, if it escalates much further than more violence will be the only answer.

[Opl]

When a fool of Allah commits an attack in France, it is indeed France that is aimed for its values and the French in the first place

Muslims in Europe suffer from the connection - Inside their communities -  between organized criminal gangs and islamic terrorism.

As long as "moderate muslims" do not realize they better lend a hand to help arresting the perpetrators , instead of keeping silent by fear of retaliation, or by loyalty, solidarity Inside their community , they'll have to face growing rejection; and it is hardly reversible.

But they are now more active and organized at denouncing islamophobia in their host countries.  

Edited January 19, 2017 by Opl

[Opl]

Since June 2016, when a police commander and his partner were stabbed to death at their home west of Paris. Their three-year-old survived.

The attacker  had spent time in jail over jihadist links and had a list of targets including public figures.

The fear of targeted retaliation has gained. In the police first. In justice too. Some investigations opened since then have accredited the risk of magistrates identified among the targets envisaged by individuals linked to terrorism.

This is IMO far more important than the incomfortable situation of Muslims in Europe due to terror laws.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Opl

[LammyTS1]

"What do Amnesty want?

 

The group is calling on EU states to limit surveillance measures to individuals who are strongly suspected of wrongdoing."

 

So what they want to see is Muslim individuals who are moderately suspected of wrongdoing can continue to freely travel and plot terrorist atrocities whilst police gather enough evidence. 

[peergin]

Amnesty International is a pain in the neck. They are traitors. The same applies to ACLU and a host of other, similar do-gooders. Governments would do best to close them down for good. We want security!!

[Pdaz]

On 18/01/2017 at 7:55 AM, Bullie said:

Amnesty is out of its it's tiny, leftist mind. I don't see islam suffering in the Netherlands. On the contrary, it's thriving, mosk's going up all over the place, breeding like rabbits., getting fat on unemployment, housing and child benefits. Over 65 % is unemployed, and not contributing to our society. Meanwhile they commit crimes 4 times more often than non-muslims (70 % of maroccan men between 15 and 25 have a police-record) and are generally behaving as if they own the place.

And that's just the non-radical muslims.

Due to the fascist nature of political islam Europe is in turmoil and fear due to persistent terrorist attacks. 70 % of the Dutch muslims condones radical salafistic islam. Everywhere we go there is now a strongly armed police presence, and increasingly invasive checks at every venue.

I can go on and on, but the real victims here, the people that have to suffer fear, discomfort, pent-up anger and straight out discrimination (I am, for instance, a xenofobic islamofobic right wing radical in the eyes of amnesty) are not the migrant muslims, they are the original European population.

Hopefully the whole continent will awake from its slumber and realise what a threat islam is to our democratic free lifestyle. I fear by that time it will be too late.

[peergin]

1 minute ago, Pdaz said:

Hopefully the whole continent will awake from its slumber and realise what a threat islam is to our democratic free lifestyle. I fear by that time it will be too late.

Slumber? The West-European politicians and the self-appointed tzars in Brussels are SOUND ASLEEP. And, so it seems are many Americans and that young man in Canada as well.

[Pdaz]

On 19/01/2017 at 8:01 AM, simple1 said:

 

On the other side of the coin why do 'authorities' have to surrender to threats by the extreme right - double standards on your part by blaming only one group.

 

The comment regards Turkey should be glaringly obvious as the extreme right posted threats against encouraging Muslims attending ANZAC Day in Australia whilst Turkish authorities have for years both permitted and provided security for non Muslims to attend ceremonies celebrating ANZAC Day, for a campaign that led to 85,000 Turkish deaths . As the Turks can be magnanimous, why not Australians?

Because your average Aussie isn't likely to walk into a crowd of innocents with a jacket full of semtex and nails strapped to him. There is security for reason. 

[JaySonic]

3 hours ago, Pdaz said:

Because your average Aussie isn't likely to walk into a crowd of innocents with a jacket full of semtex and nails strapped to him. There is security for reason. 

No. An Aussie is more likely to walk onto a crowd of innocent people in Tasmania and mow them down with his AR-15. 

 

35 dead, 23 wounded. 

 

Can you give me even one report of a Muslim in Australia committing such an attack? Even 1/10th of Martin Bryant's victim count ?

 

No, I didn't think so..... 

 

 

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Pdaz said:

Because your average Aussie isn't likely to walk into a crowd of innocents with a jacket full of semtex and nails strapped to him. There is security for reason. 

Nor is the average Muslim. However, you're obviously unaware that right wing extremists have been arrested in Oz for planning terror attacks. In addition the only killing by terrorists and attempted killings to date, by actually using explosives, in Australia, have been by white non Muslim Australians. Accordingly, thankfully you're not a decision maker within Oz security agencies.

[JaySonic]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

Nor is the average Muslim. However, you're obviously unaware that right wing extremists have been arrested in Oz for planning terror attacks. In addition the only killing by terrorists and attempted killings to date, by actually using explosives, in Australia, have been by white non Muslim Australians. Accordingly, thankfully you're not a decision maker within Oz security agencies.

Anyone remember the militant extremist that went crazy in a shopping mall in Strathfield, NSW in 1991? Stabbed and shot people at random. 8 dead, 6 wounded. White caucasian perpetrator. 

 

Or the Milpwrra Massacre, a bloody turf war that resulted in 6 dead, 28 wounded amd 140 murder convictions. All white Australian guys. All what we would call 'radical extremists' with no regard to the laws lf this country

 

If people are going to make such flippant comments about Muslims in Australia perpetrating all these bloody murders, then PROVE IT. Show me an article where anything of significance has happened. One civilian cop employee killed in Parramatta last year by a Muslim? Hardly comparable to any other massacre in Australia's history

[Pdaz]

4 hours ago, JaySonic said:

No. An Aussie is more likely to walk onto a crowd of innocent people in Tasmania and mow them down with his AR-15. 

 

35 dead, 23 wounded. 

 

Can you give me even one report of a Muslim in Australia committing such an attack? Even 1/10th of Martin Bryant's victim count ?

 

No, I didn't think so..... 

 

 

Compare the size of the Aussie muslim population with the rest of the people. Statistically speaking a criminal act is more likely to come from a non-muslim. However can you name an instance of a non- muslim being a suicide bomber or planning large scale organised violent act against the general public ? A crazy lone wolf with a mental health issue is a very different animal when compared to sane middle class  kids who have been radicalised by a perverse repressive religion.

Extremist Islamic terrorism is a growing problem in a Western countries.

unfortunately pandoras box has been opened and they are now part of the landscape. Any public gathering now requires security because of the threat of islamic radicals. Why invite more trouble to come live amongst us ?

 

[thai3]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

Nor is the average Muslim. However, you're obviously unaware that right wing extremists have been arrested in Oz for planning terror attacks. In addition the only killing by terrorists and attempted killings to date, by actually using explosives, in Australia, have been by white non Muslim Australians. Accordingly, thankfully you're not a decision maker within Oz security agencies.

You are derailing a thread again, the topic is about Muslims in Europe, not right wing extremists in Australia

[Pdaz]

Why wait till there has been an atrocity? It's not like there hasn't been a precedent overseas. The security authorities in Aus have stated publically that they have foiled several plots and are monitoring other individuals. Until the recent outrages in France and Germany nobody would have believed that an individual would hijack a truck and mow down innocent men, women and children.

The one thing in common with these terrorists ( Not their race, their ethnicity or their citizenship ) was their religion. Wait until your family or friend is murdered by these radical madmen we'll see how liberal you are then.

[JaySonic]

4 minutes ago, Pdaz said:

However can you name an instance of a non- muslim being a suicide bomber or planning large scale organised violent act against the general public ?

Timothy McVeigh - Oklahoma Bombing, 158 dead, 600 injured. An American military man. The radicalised boy next door, as American as apple pie. 

 

David Koresh - Branch Davidian Compound. 76 dead. Texan born Koresh was a religious fundamentalist. Not a Muslim. 

 

Shall I continue ? Or shall we consider the 100,000 Afghani civilians that died at the hands of a brutal, dominant world power? The same terroristic world power than was responsible for 100,000 more deaths in Iraq, 66,000 of which were civilians. 

Let's reconsider who the bloodthirsty, murderous threat really is in this age. 

[JaySonic]

11 minutes ago, thai3 said:

You are derailing a thread again, the topic is about Muslims in Europe, not right wing extremists in Australia

The irrational fear, bigotry and hatred against Muslims is a worldwide failing of compassion and equality.