Orac Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 This story about people being misled about decisions made in 1973 is just a rewriting of history to fit some peoples current agenda.It was fairly clear at the time that it was far more than just an economic decision. As pointed out earlier, Enoch Powell stated that the aim of the EEC was a federated state and Harold Wilson, in an address to parliament as PM in 1967 stated:“Whatever the economic arguments, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can – and indeed must – play our full part in it.”It also needs pointing out that to join the EEC the UK had to leave EFTA, the European Free Trade Area so to say that the move was only about free trade was a myth.Key newspapers of the time also supported joining the EEC:"Didn’t they hear Churchill say, “If Europe is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family”? He wasn’t just talking about the price of kangaroo meat."- Daily Mail leader 4th June 1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 18 hours ago, Orac said: Whereas those that haven't supported the EU would have gone further if they could. It is worth noting WITH UKIP that the current leader, previous two leaders beforehand, only MP and main financial backer have all advocated privatization of the NHS. Have your u always been gullible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtwo Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 When Blair first came to the from the the conservative ran posters with his evil eyes boy were they right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Whereas those that haven't supported the EU would have gone further if they could.It is worth noting WITH UKIP that the current leader, previous two leaders beforehand, only MP and main financial backer have all advocated privatization of the NHS. Have your u always been gullible.If by gullible you mean not believing much of what UKIP come our with then yes, however, I am not sure you understand what gullible actually means.http://www.businessinsider.sg/paul-nuttall-ukip-website-hidden-blog-hillsborough-nhs-abortion-climate-change-revealed-2017-2/?r=UK&IR=T#sIdlztvmghweZOFi.97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Orac said: This story about people being misled about decisions made in 1973 is just a rewriting of history to fit some peoples current agenda. It was fairly clear at the time that it was far more than just an economic decision. As pointed out earlier, Enoch Powell stated that the aim of the EEC was a federated state and Harold Wilson, in an address to parliament as PM in 1967 stated: “Whatever the economic arguments, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can – and indeed must – play our full part in it.” It also needs pointing out that to join the EEC the UK had to leave EFTA, the European Free Trade Area so to say that the move was only about free trade was a myth. Key newspapers of the time also supported joining the EEC: "Didn’t they hear Churchill say, “If Europe is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family”? He wasn’t just talking about the price of kangaroo meat." - Daily Mail leader 4th June 1975 "Fairly clear"! More like unfairly hidden. The UK electorate were widely mislead, although the factual information was available at the time, the British people were largely unaware of it. The UK was going through tough economic times and naturally looked to Europe as a model for something better. But Heath told the electorate that signing the Treaty of Rome would lead to "no essential loss of national sovereignty". He lied then because he knew that the British would not approve of him signing the Treaty if they knew the truth. Heath told voters that the EEC was merely a free trade association. Heath admitted to his deceit in a BBC interview in 1990, when he was asked if he had known all along that Britain was signing up to a federal European state and he replied, ‘Of course, yes’. In 1972, he also gave away sovereignty of UK territorial fishing waters, which up to that point had not been included in any EEC/EU treaties. This was just to help getting us into this mess! No current agenda here. This act of treason was committed 45 years ago. Unfortunately, Enoch did not enjoy a wide audience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 16 hours ago, nauseus said: OK, whenever you can. Well here's my bit in the meantime as I don't have a hectic schedule on Saturdays: From 1973 the EEC free-trade area mutated, "ever closer", to becoming a federal state, which the people of the UK did NOT approve in the so-called referendum of 1975. Everyone thought the idea was indeed a "common market", a purely economic arrangement. Ted Heath gave that impression and in the process he effectively lied! Heath knew of the long-term plans for federalization. Initial entry into the EEC was a con, so that alone was enough reason for another vote. The EU doesn't exist or work for the UK as it was advertised. The EU doesn't work and it is governed by an unaccountable bureaucracy. The majority of British people showed that they want return to democracy and self-rule that the EU has progressively been eroding. The majority of British people showed that they do not want the imposition of endless regulations and laws that are not made in the UK but which override British Law. The majority of Britons still value their sovereignty. They still want to be British. Why would anyone be surprised about that? The EU doesn't work due to the very nature of its anti-democratic structure. The EU doesn't work. The EU is now plagued by high debt and unemployment. The EU has the worst economic performance in the developed world. The EU doesn't work. Britain suffers a net loss of at least GBP 9 billion per year for the dubious distinction of being a member! The EU doesn't work. Parts of the Lisbon Treaty have been ignored in order to keep Greece afloat at the expense of the richer members. The EU doesn't work. EU (Dublin) Regulation(s) specify that asylum applications must be processed at the point of entry into the EU. Greece and Italy have failed, especially Greece to fulfill these obligations. Obviously Greece's position was made impossible by Merkel's "come on in boys" policies and I feel sorry for the Greeks and the Italians - Italy has had to deal with this problem for decades already. There is only a small percentage of real war refugees. There is a high percentage of young, mainly male, opportunists from the Middle East and Africa, who have to pay quite a lot cash up front to the people smugglers. Now I have sympathy for those who genuinely have to flee from likely harm or death ( i.e. Syria/Iraq) but this stop of border checks has allowed an out-of-control migration of millions, deep into Europe. The mass migration of 2015/6 probably swung the vote. A very good post. May I add,that on the 30th April 1952 Jean Monnet the founding father of the EU wrote. Europes Nations should be guided towards the super state without their people UNDERSTANDING what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps,each disguised as having an economic purpose,but which will lead eventually and irreversible to a Federation". Well in 2016 the thinking British people thought. "Fool me once,shame on you,fool me twice and shame on me" And so in 2016 the electorate realized and UNDERSTOOD how they had been scammed all those years ago,and voted to take their country back from the corrupt Bureacrats in Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 11 hours ago, dunroaming said: Ha! Ha! I love it! I also didn't mention that Trump was insane but that doesn't mean he isn't. I will endeavour to monitor my word count in future. Obviously an implication isn't sufficient! Trump is a wild card, yes. But topic is EU. You are already using Trump as an excuse for EU failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 15 hours ago, Grouse said: Have you done? I was at a funeral and away from my MacBook Sorry you had to attend a funeral, Grouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartender100 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Blair lives in la-la-land, he has not a clue how hated he is is in the UK, thats how out of touch he is with normal British people. Watch the Dutch and French elections carefully, they will have there say also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Off-topic, inflammatory posts removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 34 minutes ago, nauseus said: "Fairly clear"! More like unfairly hidden. The UK electorate were widely mislead, although the factual information was available at the time, the British people were largely unaware of it. The UK was going through tough economic times and naturally looked to Europe as a model for something better. But Heath told the electorate that signing the Treaty of Rome would lead to "no essential loss of national sovereignty". He lied then because he knew that the British would not approve of him signing the Treaty if they knew the truth. Heath told voters that the EEC was merely a free trade association. Heath admitted to his deceit in a BBC interview in 1990, when he was asked if he had known all along that Britain was signing up to a federal European state and he replied, ‘Of course, yes’. In 1972, he also gave away sovereignty of UK territorial fishing waters, which up to that point had not been included in any EEC/EU treaties. This was just to help getting us into this mess! No current agenda here. This act of treason was committed 45 years ago. Unfortunately, Enoch did not enjoy a wide audience! Again, revisionist. Wilson to parliament in 1967, the white paper in 1971, the Daily Mail as I quoted and also The Sun were clear that this was a political union as much as an economic one. Your claim that Heath 'admitted his deceit' in the 1990 interview is just him confirming what was being said at the time by many people involved. The fishing quotas being given away in 1972 were before both us going into the EEC and the subsequent referendum so were perfectly well known at the time decisions were actually made. as for Enoch Powell not getting a wide enough audience, here he is being interviewed by Sir Robin Day after the referendum where he clearly states that Heath had been honest about it being a political union (around the 2min mark). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 49 minutes ago, nontabury said: A very good post. May I add,that on the 30th April 1952 Jean Monnet the founding father of the EU wrote. Europes Nations should be guided towards the super state without their people UNDERSTANDING what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps,each disguised as having an economic purpose,but which will lead eventually and irreversible to a Federation". Well in 2016 the thinking British people thought. "Fool me once,shame on you,fool me twice and shame on me" And so in 2016 the electorate realized and UNDERSTOOD how they had been scammed all those years ago,and voted to take their country back from the corrupt Bureacrats in Brussels. No Once again incorrect This explains things http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/03/exclusive-the-danger-of-jean-monnet/ Sadly Nontabury ignores me, I believe, and is therefore cast out into the land of the synaptically challenged who are obviously not interested in discourse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewsterbudgen Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 how much have you had to drink? There are only two people who lie more than him, Bush is one and the self imposed chosen one is the other Get real Blair will do anything for moneyAs I said, I'm not a fan, but on the EU and the foolishness of deciding to leave, he is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, Grouse said: No Once again incorrect This explains things http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/03/exclusive-the-danger-of-jean-monnet/ Sadly Nontabury ignores me, I believe, and is therefore cast out into the land of the synaptically challenged who are obviously not interested in discourse Heavy sigh, please give up on the insults - they only alienate those who agree with some of the points you make and, are the opposite of conducive towards reasonable discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 On 2/17/2017 at 8:03 PM, brewsterbudgen said: Not a fan of Blair, but he talks sense and his country, the EU and the world needs him right now. 5 hours ago, wakeupplease said: how much have you had to drink? There are only two people who lie more than him, Bush is one and the self imposed chosen one is the other Get real Blair will do anything for money 12 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said: As I said, I'm not a fan, but on the EU and the foolishness of deciding to leave, he is spot on. Stating that "the EU and the world needs him right now" is a very bad way of expressing yourself if you are only agreeing with his views on this subject! It certainly took me by suprise that anyone would think the EU/world need Blair's intervention to 'put things right'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Heavy sigh, please give up on the insults - they only alienate those who agree with some of the points you make and, are the opposite of conducive towards reasonable discussion. Who is insulting whom? I, and others, put up with a regular barrage from our friend who ignores me so that I have no chance to retort! If he is hiding behind an ignore screen, I can't really insult him can I? Actually I do take a dim view of people only wanting to have half a conversation! I thought "synaptically challenged" was rather mild! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champers Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 On 2/18/2017 at 11:45 AM, Grouse said: Very possibly, but he's correct about this. whether or not Brexit turns out to be good or bad ( I believe the latter) is not the point. The fact is that the cynical Con Party ARE driving the lemmings over a cliff!! Having foolishly emasculated the Lib Dems there is no leash on the slavering blood thirsty dogs. Meanwhile, Labour is dead. Too worried about teachers' unions and LGBT rights to be concerned with the average British family. Anyone for tennis? New balls please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Stating that "the EU and the world needs him right now" is a very bad way of expressing yourself if you are only agreeing with his views on this subject! It certainly took me by suprise that anyone would think the EU/world need Blair's intervention to 'put things right'! Well there certainly seems to be a paucity of upright statesmen who are prepared to speak their minds honestly. Ken Clarke is actually heroic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 A serious question for some of our better informed contributors about the Euro. Clearly, the Euro has been a boon for some and a major headache for others. I feel that it was a good idea inadequately thought through and implemented too rapidly. What mechanism(s) would enable readjustment? For example, should Greece revert to the Drachma and then be allowed to rejoin at a more sensible rate (effectively a devaluation)? Any brilliant ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 52 minutes ago, Orac said: Again, revisionist. Wilson to parliament in 1967, the white paper in 1971, the Daily Mail as I quoted and also The Sun were clear that this was a political union as much as an economic one. Your claim that Heath 'admitted his deceit' in the 1990 interview is just him confirming what was being said at the time by many people involved. The fishing quotas being given away in 1972 were before both us going into the EEC and the subsequent referendum so were perfectly well known at the time decisions were actually made. as for Enoch Powell not getting a wide enough audience, here he is being interviewed by Sir Robin Day after the referendum where he clearly states that Heath had been honest about it being a political union (around the 2min mark). I am not revising anything. You select bits and pieces over several years but the truth is that, in general terms, the people of the UK were intentionally mislead. I know, I remember, I was there. Does Heath's confession make his crime any better? Fishing rights were given away to assist the UK being accepted into the EEC (a pre 1st January 1973 free-bee if you like) - this after multiple membership applications had already been rejected by the Europeans, particularly the French. As for Enoch Powell, well what he needed was an audience that listened and actually believed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champers Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Political union made more sense in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Two world wars had ravaged Europe and Western Europe was ranged against Russia and the occupied Warsaw pact countries. A united front was crucial.... and supported strongly by the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, Grouse said: Who is insulting whom? I, and others, put up with a regular barrage from our friend who ignores me so that I have no chance to retort! If he is hiding behind an ignore screen, I can't really insult him can I? Actually I do take a dim view of people only wanting to have half a conversation! I thought "synaptically challenged" was rather mild! Why on earth would you care if someone puts you on an 'ignore list'??? Its a general discussion and its a touch narcissistic to worry about another poster not reading your retorts! As it bothers you so much, might I suggest that you put the poster on your own 'ignore list'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Orac said: Again, revisionist. Wilson to parliament in 1967, the white paper in 1971, the Daily Mail as I quoted and also The Sun were clear that this was a political union as much as an economic one. Your claim that Heath 'admitted his deceit' in the 1990 interview is just him confirming what was being said at the time by many people involved. The fishing quotas being given away in 1972 were before both us going into the EEC and the subsequent referendum so were perfectly well known at the time decisions were actually made. as for Enoch Powell not getting a wide enough audience, here he is being interviewed by Sir Robin Day after the referendum where he clearly states that Heath had been honest about it being a political union (around the 2min mark). This is first rate! How civilised we were in those days! I always thought Day was magnificent! It's fascinating that we now have a mirror image of that situation. Powell is "insulting the intelligence of the electorate" Ha! He also wants parliament to keep close control of the proceedings! Great stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Why on earth would you care if someone puts you on an 'ignore list'??? Its a general discussion and its a touch narcissistic to worry about another poster not reading your retorts! As it bothers you so much, might I suggest that you put the poster on your own 'ignore list'? I never ignore anyone I'm here to be entertained, to learn and in some small way contribute. I don't give a rat's a*s* who ignores me; the point is that it is "bad form" to hurl brickbats from behind an ignore curtain! Again, I think my comment was very reasonable ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Stating that "the EU and the world needs him right now" is a very bad way of expressing yourself if you are only agreeing with his views on this subject! It certainly took me by suprise that anyone would think the EU/world need Blair's intervention to 'put things right'! 29 minutes ago, Grouse said: Well there certainly seems to be a paucity of upright statesmen who are prepared to speak their minds honestly. Ken Clarke is actually heroic! Are you saying that you respect Blair and think "the world needs him right now"? The problem is not only that Blair's utterances are off-putting to pretty much everyone as (for good reason) they believe he is only interested in his own personal interests - but for the same reason Blair 'honestly speaking his mind' can only harm the 'remainer' cause.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: Are you saying that you respect Blair and think "the world needs him right now"? The problem is not only that Blair's utterances are off-putting to pretty much everyone as (for good reason) they believe he is only interested in his own personal interests - but for the same reason Blair 'honestly speaking his mind' can only harm the 'remainer' cause.... I think we've all moved on from the "remainers" cause. That's democracy for good or bad. What gets me is that hardly any MP has the courage and statesmanship to stand up and speak his mind. Do you not think it odd that no Con Party MP spoke out except Clark and a couple of others? Why is that do you think? I'll tell you; it's because they can see how to make a buck and cover their backs. Dismal actually. So different from the days of Whitelaw and Powell! The fact that it took Blair with all his baggage to say what needed to be said is telling of the state we are in (I'm aware of the double meaning!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Orac said: Again, revisionist. Wilson to parliament in 1967, the white paper in 1971, the Daily Mail as I quoted and also The Sun were clear that this was a political union as much as an economic one. Your claim that Heath 'admitted his deceit' in the 1990 interview is just him confirming what was being said at the time by many people involved. The fishing quotas being given away in 1972 were before both us going into the EEC and the subsequent referendum so were perfectly well known at the time decisions were actually made. as for Enoch Powell not getting a wide enough audience, here he is being interviewed by Sir Robin Day after the referendum where he clearly states that Heath had been honest about it being a political union (around the 2min mark). Thank you for that video. I found it very interesting and I had forgotten what a good speaker and a great person Enoch Powell was. He was also a man who stood by his principles, something rarely if ever found in the UK politicians today. Enoch Powell's write up on Wikipedia is very interesting. Tony B'liar has never has a principle in his life other than the greater glorification of himself. Edited February 19, 2017 by billd766 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Grouse said: What gets me is that hardly any MP has the courage and statesmanship to stand up and speak his mind. Do you not think it odd that no Con Party MP spoke out except Clark and a couple of others? Why is that do you think? I'll tell you; it's because they can see how to make a buck and cover their backs. Dismal actually. Sorry for snipping parts of your post - but I agree with the above entirely! On the other side of the coin, I've no doubt that Blair and Clark etc. are also only interested in 'making a buck and covering their backs'..... Which brings me back to Blair being SO delusional that he thinks people respect him and will 'rise up against brexit' because of his utterances (roll eyes). But you didn't answer the question - do you think the EU/world "need" Blair to put them on the right path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick dasterdly Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, billd766 said: Thank you for that video. I found it very interesting and I had forgotten what a good speaker and a great person Enoch Powell was. He was also a man who stood by his principles, something rarely if ever found in the UK politicians today. Enoch Powell's write up on Wikipedia is very interesting. Tony B'liar has never has a principle in his life other than the greater glorification of himself. Not sure about Enoch Powell being a "great" person, but entirely agree with the rest of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said: Why on earth would you care if someone puts you on an 'ignore list'??? Its a general discussion and its a touch narcissistic to worry about another poster not reading your retorts! As it bothers you so much, might I suggest that you put the poster on your own 'ignore list'? Actually I don't think I'm the only one who has put this poster on an ignore list. I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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