Surapong in the dock over Thaksin's passports

[halloween]

19 minutes ago, greenchair said:

You forget that there are 77 parties that would also like to share the pie. At least in the past they all got to have a tidbit. 

I doubt that those that failed to have a candidate elected got anything. Others, such as New Aspiration, sold themselves wholesale.

[robblok]

9 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

again, how did Yingluck stop being the PM ? Don't answer, and continue your lies that there weren't any checks and balances. Pray tell how could Prayuth be impeached ?

 

A senate that is fully appointed and has far reaching powers has nothing to do with democracy, any more than it has anything to do with PT (or any other party for that matter) obeying more rules....

Tired of your lies.. YL stepped down after massive protests.. then got impeached.. Then wanted to run again.. (to hide all the misdeeds of the PTP) Anyway we can discuss untill we are both grey we will never see eye to eye.  The only way for justice in Thailand is if a party is not in power. That is not how a functioning democracy works. You can say there were checks and balances.. but they only work when the party is not in  power. After YL was removed and the junta came up all the misdeeds were finally punished. That is not how it should be.

 

But lets agree to disagree. 

[greenchair]

49 minutes ago, robblok said:

Tired of your lies.. YL stepped down after massive protests.. then got impeached.. Then wanted to run again.. (to hide all the misdeeds of the PTP) Anyway we can discuss untill we are both grey we will never see eye to eye.  The only way for justice in Thailand is if a party is not in power. That is not how a functioning democracy works. You can say there were checks and balances.. but they only work when the party is not in  power. After YL was removed and the junta came up all the misdeeds were finally punished. That is not how it should be.

 

But lets agree to disagree. 

Still, try as they might. They looked in every nook and cranny to find corruption to pin on YL, as desperate as they were they could find nothing. 

I wonder if we could say the same thing about past, present or future. .........

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

I doubt that those that failed to have a candidate elected got anything. Others, such as New Aspiration, sold themselves wholesale.

Wheeling and dealing by smaller parties to get seats/Wheeling and dealing of big parties to join with smaller parties to get more power, is standard democratic policy worldwide . everybody got a little piece and some got a bigger chunk than others. Unlike the present day. 

[craigt3365]

19 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Still, try as they might. They looked in every nook and cranny to find corruption to pin on YL, as desperate as they were they could find nothing. 

I wonder if we could say the same thing about past, present or future. .........

They've got Yingluck on dereliction of duty.  Makes sense, she was head of the rice committee, it was massively corrupt, engineered by her brother (a convicted criminal on the run) and lost huge sums of money.  The buck stops there.  She knew what was happening.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/thai-pm-yingluck-fight-1bn-fine-rice-scheme-161021071411699.html

Quote

 

In addition to cases against Yingluck and senior members of her former cabinet, the military government is investigating some 850 cases related to the rice scheme for corruption, government spokesman General Sansern Kaewkamnerd told Reuters.

 

Many of the cases involve lower-ranking public officials and members of the private sector, he said.

 

 

[robblok]

38 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Still, try as they might. They looked in every nook and cranny to find corruption to pin on YL, as desperate as they were they could find nothing. 

I wonder if we could say the same thing about past, present or future. .........

I feel that the 500 billion loss is a good thing to pin on her. She was warned by everyone.. and did not listen. That is gross negligence.. but your right can't find any corruption on YL. But how do you call it that her brother got the passport.. 

 

Anyway I am sure they can pin something on the junta (really hope they will). Abisith.. that is an other one who is free of corruption. 

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I feel that the 500 billion loss is a good thing to pin on her. She was warned by everyone.. and did not listen. That is gross negligence.. but your right can't find any corruption on YL. But how do you call it that her brother got the passport.. 

 

Anyway I am sure they can pin something on the junta (really hope they will). Abisith.. that is an other one who is free of corruption. 

Actually abisith time in government was noted by the international community as one of the most corrupt governments that thailand has had. As opposed to yingluck government being noted as the least corrupt. 

After they could not find a corrupt bone in her body, they decided to justify removing her from government and prosecute her for the corruption of others. Which by the way, so far none have been convicted in the court of being guilty, however all including yingluck have been ordered to pay compensation before their case is finalised. If you want to say that is normal ??? just recently the present government had a 1 am secret meeting. Laws were passed to facilitate an action they wanted to undertake. Same same but different. 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

Actually abisith time in government was noted by the international community as one of the most corrupt governments that thailand has had. As opposed to yingluck government being noted as the least corrupt. 

After they could not find a corrupt bone in her body, they decided to justify removing her from government and prosecute her for the corruption of others. Which by the way, so far none have been convicted in the court of being guilty, however all including yingluck have been ordered to pay compensation before their case is finalised. If you want to say that is normal ??? just recently the present government had a 1 am secret meeting. Laws were passed to facilitate an action they wanted to undertake. Same same but different. 

Abisith.. the person .. not his government.. he had to make a deal with Newin.. no wonder there was a lot of corruption. YL her government not corrupt..those fake G2G deals are really a prime example of high ranking ministers being really corrupt. Anyway I do believe YL herself is not corrupt, just gross negligence.. and those passports for her brother what would that be called.. helping your convicted criminal brother ?

 

As for YL paying before its finalized.. would have been better if they had just frozen her money. But I can understand them worrying about the money getting lost. 

[sjaak327]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

Tired of your lies.. YL stepped down after massive protests.. then got impeached.. Then wanted to run again.. (to hide all the misdeeds of the PTP) Anyway we can discuss untill we are both grey we will never see eye to eye.  The only way for justice in Thailand is if a party is not in power. That is not how a functioning democracy works. You can say there were checks and balances.. but they only work when the party is not in  power. After YL was removed and the junta came up all the misdeeds were finally punished. That is not how it should be.

 

But lets agree to disagree. 

She got impeached, precisely. So there were checks and balances. She WAS impeached whilst she was in power. You contradict yourself, her impeachement quite clearly predated the coup.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

She got impeached, precisely. So there were checks and balances. She WAS impeached whilst she was in power. You contradict yourself, her impeachement quite clearly predated the coup.

Yes and if the PTP had won all other things would have been hidden and we would never seen it again. I wonder how long you been here that you don't seem to notice that those in power stall investigations and hide their misdeeds and that it only comes up once an other party is in power. 

 

That is not how an democracy works.. so IMHO there was never a working democracy.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Abisith.. the person .. not his government.. he had to make a deal with Newin.. no wonder there was a lot of corruption. YL her government not corrupt..those fake G2G deals are really a prime example of high ranking ministers being really corrupt. Anyway I do believe YL herself is not corrupt, just gross negligence.. and those passports for her brother what would that be called.. helping your convicted criminal brother ?

 

As for YL paying before its finalized.. would have been better if they had just frozen her money. But I can understand them worrying about the money getting lost. 

Yes, of course abisith had to make a deal therefore any corruption was not his fault. But you agree yl was not corrupt, but is considered guilty because of her sidekicks. Similar to her brother, they could not find any corruption to pin on him, so gave him a 2 year prison sentence for something his wife did of which she was later cleared. Again if you think that is normal ????. 

The foreign minister was doing his job and gave a Thai citizen a Thai passport. I myself have a small criminal record and I have a passport. Again, they could not find any corruption to pin on this guy so they come up with this doossey.

I am failing to see what he did wrong. He did not break any laws. 

[scorecard]

32 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Yes, of course abisith had to make a deal therefore any corruption was not his fault. But you agree yl was not corrupt, but is considered guilty because of her sidekicks. Similar to her brother, they could not find any corruption to pin on him, so gave him a 2 year prison sentence for something his wife did of which she was later cleared. Again if you think that is normal ????. 

The foreign minister was doing his job and gave a Thai citizen a Thai passport. I myself have a small criminal record and I have a passport. Again, they could not find any corruption to pin on this guy so they come up with this doossey.

I am failing to see what he did wrong. He did not break any laws. 

 

And again you say several things which are seriously not the truth and quite deliberately misleading. Shame on you.

 

Par for the course for you and your ilk...

[mike324]

37 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Yes, of course abisith had to make a deal therefore any corruption was not his fault. But you agree yl was not corrupt, but is considered guilty because of her sidekicks. Similar to her brother, they could not find any corruption to pin on him, so gave him a 2 year prison sentence for something his wife did of which she was later cleared. Again if you think that is normal ????. 

The foreign minister was doing his job and gave a Thai citizen a Thai passport. I myself have a small criminal record and I have a passport. Again, they could not find any corruption to pin on this guy so they come up with this doossey.

I am failing to see what he did wrong. He did not break any laws. 

 

Do you still not get why Yingluck was sentence, her government did not have enough money to pay farmers, hence they needed to borrow money to pay. The misused / miscalculated the funds for the rice scheme. Her party did not release rice sales figures for 2 years, they refuse to do so for 2 years citing its a secret! How can it be a secret? Yingluck said it herself, there is no corruption within the scheme. Later on she says there is corruption with the millers, but the case went cold again.

 

Thaksin was charged because he signed the document which his wife required to purchase the land. That makes it a conflict of interest as he could not sign any deals that has to do with government properties. Yes his wife needed his signature.

 

These are all not made up charges. Thaksins passport was revoked, once Yingluck became PM, Surapong reissued Thaksins passport even though there was an arrest warrant in effect which should have prevented the reissue of passport.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

Yes, of course abisith had to make a deal therefore any corruption was not his fault. But you agree yl was not corrupt, but is considered guilty because of her sidekicks. Similar to her brother, they could not find any corruption to pin on him, so gave him a 2 year prison sentence for something his wife did of which she was later cleared. Again if you think that is normal ????. 

The foreign minister was doing his job and gave a Thai citizen a Thai passport. I myself have a small criminal record and I have a passport. Again, they could not find any corruption to pin on this guy so they come up with this doossey.

I am failing to see what he did wrong. He did not break any laws. 

YL is not guilty of corruption.. you know what she is guilty of.

 

For Thaksin there are far more serious cases.. remember the loans.. that the bank guy is doing time for... Thaksin is the main guy there. There are far more cases waiting for him to come home. 

 

The foreign minister is going against an order that the passport was taken away by law. 

 

And now I see your adoration with the PTP your a criminal yourself   (just joking)

[sjaak327]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes and if the PTP had won all other things would have been hidden and we would never seen it again. I wonder how long you been here that you don't seem to notice that those in power stall investigations and hide their misdeeds and that it only comes up once an other party is in power. 

 

That is not how an democracy works.. so IMHO there was never a working democracy.

Yet she got impeached, which is perfect proof that what you claim is false. Your claim is correct right now as the current rulers cannot possibly be impeached or prosecuted. But I guess that is ok, after all they are the good guys ! That alone indicates how little you know of this country.

 

Funny how you claim that previous governments  could stall, yet there are numerous examples of people being impeached and red carded. Yet  you seem to be allright with the total absence of checks and balances, no accountability for the current lot, which to top it off don't even have a mandate. You are a hypocrite and you seem to fail to realize how this makes your posts highly suspect.

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, sjaak327 said:

Yet she got impeached, which is perfect proof that would you claim is false. Your claim is correct right now. But I guess that is ok, after all they are the good guys ! That alone indicates how little you know of this country.

 Ahh, another one who knows all and nobody knows what I know .... grow up. 

[robblok]

51 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Yet she got impeached, which is perfect proof that what you claim is false. Your claim is correct right now as the current rulers cannot possibly be impeached or prosecuted. But I guess that is ok, after all they are the good guys ! That alone indicates how little you know of this country.

 

Funny how you claim that previous governments  could stall, yet there are numerous examples of people being impeached and red carded. Yet  you seem to be allright with the total absence of checks and balances, no accountability for the current lot, which to top it off don't even have a mandate. You are a hypocrite and you seem to fail to realize how this makes your posts highly suspect.

Oh dear.. your as much a hypocrite as me defending the side you like and overlooking the misdeeds and the non functioning democracy. If the checks had worked I would not have any problems. So its normal to have a 500 billion baht of books fund.. oh sure 

 

The current rulers are indeed beyond accountability and that is a bad thing, YL and hers were unaccountable too .. until the junta came in. 

 

Anyway lets forget this you got your views i got mine. 

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

YL is not guilty of corruption.. you know what she is guilty of.

 

For Thaksin there are far more serious cases.. remember the loans.. that the bank guy is doing time for... Thaksin is the main guy there. There are far more cases waiting for him to come home. 

 

The foreign minister is going against an order that the passport was taken away by law. 

 

And now I see your adoration with the PTP your a criminal yourself   (just joking)

Passports belong to the government. Any government is entitled to withdraw or reinstate a passport at their discretion .

I am not a supporter of PTP, I , like many others were expecting them to be voted out. But now we have a great mess. It's very uncomfortable and scary these days. 

No, I don't know what yl was guilty of. Nothing in the law books. 

[candide]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Oh dear.. your as much a hypocrite as me defending the side you like and overlooking the misdeeds and the non functioning democracy. If the checks had worked I would not have any problems. So its normal to have a 500 billion baht of books fund.. oh sure 

 

The current rulers are indeed beyond accountability and that is a bad thing, YL and hers were unaccountable too .. until the junta came in. 

 

Anyway lets forget this you got your views i got mine. 

Actually there is a significant list of cases that contradict your assertion: changes in the constitution refused by the constitutional court, elections results nullified, application of state of emergency measures forbidden, Yingluck ousted for abuse of power, NACC'S decision to indict YL for the rice scheme.... all that done before the coup.

In fact, a significant number of investigations and decisions against the PTP government have been expedited during their government, while older cases against Suthep or Abhisit have been slowed down......

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, mike324 said:

 

Do you still not get why Yingluck was sentence, her government did not have enough money to pay farmers, hence they needed to borrow money to pay. The misused / miscalculated the funds for the rice scheme. Her party did not release rice sales figures for 2 years, they refuse to do so for 2 years citing its a secret! How can it be a secret? Yingluck said it herself, there is no corruption within the scheme. Later on she says there is corruption with the millers, but the case went cold again.

 

Thaksin was charged because he signed the document which his wife required to purchase the land. That makes it a conflict of interest as he could not sign any deals that has to do with government properties. Yes his wife needed his signature.

 

These are all not made up charges. Thaksins passport was revoked, once Yingluck became PM, Surapong reissued Thaksins passport even though there was an arrest warrant in effect which should have prevented the reissue of passport.

But all that falls on deaf ears for those who have a problem understanding what is right and wrong especially when directed at their heroes.

You should realise by now "they can do no wrong" according to some people. Unfortunately, this belief is endemic in LOS and not only to Thai people. 

[wakeupplease]

There is a world outside the LOS, does anyone care what they think? You should as you need them more than ever

The EU and USA still think YL was elected where as The self imposed chosen one grabbed it

You all know whats going on so why fight each other so much on here like you do

There is more to life than Red, Yellow and Shins or are your minds so corrupt you cannot see that

 

I vote for a week of no Sins, Yellows or Reds, I would rather talk about the weather than keep on about old old stories that are being reused every week simply as propaganda by a certain few

 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, wakeupplease said:

There is a world outside the LOS, does anyone care what they think? You should as you need them more than ever

The EU and USA still think YL was elected where as The self imposed chosen one grabbed it

You all know whats going on so why fight each other so much on here like you do

There is more to life than Red, Yellow and Shins or are your minds so corrupt you cannot see that

 

I vote for a week of no Sins, Yellows or Reds, I would rather talk about the weather than keep on about old old stories that are being reused every week simply as propaganda by a certain few

 

Its nice debating, but I got other nicer hobbies. Its all good fun, there are so many angles here and no good guys. You don't have to read it. In day to day life this hardly effects people. I am quite happy that there are no reds (or yellows) on the streets of BKK. Things just seem to move along now without riots and problems. 

 

If you rather talk about the weather you free to open a topic in general. I opened many topics about weight loss and fitness in the health forum, you can have debates there too because there is no one right way to do things. That is the good thing about this forum there is always something to debate that peeks your interests. 

[sjaak327]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

Oh dear.. your as much a hypocrite as me defending the side you like and overlooking the misdeeds and the non functioning democracy. If the checks had worked I would not have any problems. So its normal to have a 500 billion baht of books fund.. oh sure 

 

The current rulers are indeed beyond accountability and that is a bad thing, YL and hers were unaccountable too .. until the junta came in. 

 

Anyway lets forget this you got your views i got mine. 

Yes but Yingluck WAS accountable before the junta came in. There is specific proof of this. You will never get it, nowhere am I defending Yingluck or PT. Fact is, Yingluck did have to follow a set of rules and she did have to get an actual mandate. That IS much closer to a real democracy than we will see in Thailand for the next few decades, unless someone forcefully abolishes the approved constitution. Again the warnings were right and unfortunately that warning fell on deaf ears. You can't fix stupid...

[robblok]

3 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

Yes but Yingluck WAS accountable before the junta came in. There is specific proof of this. You will never get it, nowhere am I defending Yingluck or PT. Fact is, Yingluck did have to follow a set of rules and she did have to get an actual mandate. That IS much closer to a real democracy than we will see in Thailand for the next few decades, unless someone forcefully abolishes the approved constitution. Again the warnings were right and unfortunately that warning fell on deaf ears. You can't fix stupid...

 

Fact remains without the junta many in dept investigations would not have started and would have been stalled and evidence destroyed. That is not how a democracy works. It might be closer to a democracy then the junta now but it was still far from perfect. I prefer this because now her and her group get the punishment for their misdeeds that they deserve. They would have escaped justice for the large part otherwise. 

 

Now you can blame her as much as you can the junta without her actions the (amnesty) the coup would not have happened (or would not have had the support it had). Your right you can't fix stupid.. without the Thaksin amnesty and other actions of YL and her ilk we would not be here. Thaksin just cant play nice. 

 

There are certainly negatives from the junta won't deny it because its true, but there are positives too (i know you don't like to see YL and hers get punished but I do). I also like it that finally no protesters in BKK. \

 

(forgot to mention)

 

We now know the blackshirts were red shirts.. proven in a court of law.. so we know that the PTP has an armed wing.. wow.. nice and democratic. Without those armed blackshirts the deaths would never have happened. 

[sjaak327]

Many investigations, right. Of course their own massive corruption is swept under the carpet.

 

It is clear. You oppose YL amnesty (that would in fact also have benefitted the other side) yet you have no problem with the NPCO enjoying an amnesty for past and future crimes. That in itself is undefensable. And show a bias that cannot be denied.

 

Again, without a justice system where all are equal, any discussion about corruption, nepotism are useless, as one group of people are getting away with it unchallenged. Fighting corruption my ass.

[mike324]

3 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

Many investigations, right. Of course their own massive corruption is swept under the carpet.

 

It is clear. You oppose YL amnesty (that would in fact also have benefitted the other side) yet you have no problem with the NPCO enjoying an amnesty for past and future crimes. That in itself is undefensable. And show a bias that cannot be denied.

 

Again, without a justice system where all are equal, any discussion about corruption, nepotism are useless, as one group of people are getting away with it unchallenged. Fighting corruption my ass.

 

I think the TRT/PTP has been in power for the better part of the decade. Things were obviously not improving much in regards to domestic issues such as social, environmental, and political problems. Thailand needs to take two steps back before it can move forward again, change is needed. If you think Thailand was so much better under democracy, it was in the beginning but the corruption was the same same. The cancer of the Thai society is the police and lack of law enforcement. The fact that police in thailand has so much influence in all aspects of the society makes it troublesome, especially during Thaksins administration where he gave more powers to the police and began promoting his cadet friends to different top positions.

 

This has been a problem even before Thaksin, but once he was in power the trend accelerated. No doubt we still see the same with the General being PM.  At least now we have soldiers who can do something about the police, which is a big change.

[sjaak327]

1 hour ago, mike324 said:

 

I think the TRT/PTP has been in power for the better part of the decade. Things were obviously not improving much in regards to domestic issues such as social, environmental, and political problems. Thailand needs to take two steps back before it can move forward again, change is needed. If you think Thailand was so much better under democracy, it was in the beginning but the corruption was the same same. The cancer of the Thai society is the police and lack of law enforcement. The fact that police in thailand has so much influence in all aspects of the society makes it troublesome, especially during Thaksins administration where he gave more powers to the police and began promoting his cadet friends to different top positions.

 

This has been a problem even before Thaksin, but once he was in power the trend accelerated. No doubt we still see the same with the General being PM.  At least now we have soldiers who can do something about the police, which is a big change.

You are forgetting a tiny thing, the army is much more powerfull than the police ever was. They are not here to reform Thailand, they are here to make sure they continue to have direct influence in how Thailand is run. And does anyone honestly believe they will allow a full return to democracy for the next two decades ? The army is part of the problem, not the solution. They should be replaced by democratically elected politicans.

 

I still don't get how anyone could trust them, they are not only equally corrupt (no, more corrupt actually) have surpesssed anyone who criticized them, and are not accountable to anyone.

 

Time to admit that the situation got progressively worse, and anyone thinking the devide in this society will magically go away are dreaming and apparently failed to learn from history. Of course anyone having faith in the Thai army have failed to read up on that particular history.

[johng]

spot on assessment sjaak327

[candide]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

 

Fact remains without the junta many in dept investigations would not have started and would have been stalled and evidence destroyed. That is not how a democracy works. It might be closer to a democracy then the junta now but it was still far from perfect. I prefer this because now her and her group get the punishment for their misdeeds that they deserve. They would have escaped justice for the large part otherwise. 

 

Now you can blame her as much as you can the junta without her actions the (amnesty) the coup would not have happened (or would not have had the support it had). Your right you can't fix stupid.. without the Thaksin amnesty and other actions of YL and her ilk we would not be here. Thaksin just cant play nice. 

 

There are certainly negatives from the junta won't deny it because its true, but there are positives too (i know you don't like to see YL and hers get punished but I do). I also like it that finally no protesters in BKK. \

 

(forgot to mention)

 

We now know the blackshirts were red shirts.. proven in a court of law.. so we know that the PTP has an armed wing.. wow.. nice and democratic. Without those armed blackshirts the deaths would never have happened. 

"We now know the blackshirts were red shirts.. proven in a court of law.. so we know that the PTP has an armed wing.. wow.. nice and democratic. Without those armed blackshirts the deaths would never have happened. "

We know only of one guy convicted for carrying weapons (not shooting) who's face appears on a picture. The rest is just inference by you.

[candide]

2 hours ago, mike324 said:

 

I think the TRT/PTP has been in power for the better part of the decade. Things were obviously not improving much in regards to domestic issues such as social, environmental, and political problems. Thailand needs to take two steps back before it can move forward again, change is needed. If you think Thailand was so much better under democracy, it was in the beginning but the corruption was the same same. The cancer of the Thai society is the police and lack of law enforcement. The fact that police in thailand has so much influence in all aspects of the society makes it troublesome, especially during Thaksins administration where he gave more powers to the police and began promoting his cadet friends to different top positions.

 

This has been a problem even before Thaksin, but once he was in power the trend accelerated. No doubt we still see the same with the General being PM.  At least now we have soldiers who can do something about the police, which is a big change.

Actually, since the 2006 coup, the PPT has been in power during 3 years and half  only (less if you don't count the caretaker period).