US Embassy Violates US Law

[oobar]

The US Embassy in Bangkok is currently ignoring US law by refusing to accept older US Federal Reserve notes, including the near-mint-condition 1996 series 100-dollar bill I handed the Embassy cashier recently to pay a $50 fee for document notarization.   Informed that that the note would not be accepted, I pressed repeatedly that the Embassy had no choice but to honor all Federal Reserve notes, regardless of their printing dates.  The Thai cashier then vacated her booth, and an American Embassy employee higher up the pecking order arrived a few moments later.  He explained  that the Embassy no longer accepts older currencies, because the Thai bank they use refuses to accept them.   I explained that my wife and I, both US citizens, are long-term residents (31 years) of Thailand and we have kept these older notes specifically to use at the one place we knew they must be honored – the American Embassy, where twice yearly we need to have documents notarized.   He said he was sorry, but the Embassy could not accept the note and  I could pay by either Thai baht or credit card, no matter that the Embassy exchange rate for the dollar was a full two baht higher than that listed in the morning’s Bangkok Post, adding an almost six percent premium to the already very high $50 charged for the one minute or so required for the notary’s signature and seal.  Since we pay our credit card statement in Thai baht, we would also get hit by the participating bank’s exchange rate.   I again insisted, repeatedly, that the US Embassy must accept US currency, to which he replied that I needed to understand that the US government “is trying to take the older notes out of circulation,” a statement about as close to a non sequitur as I have run into lately, even in Thailand.    How could refusing to accept a currency aid its removal from circulation?  (Maybe it would simply evaporate.)   He did not reply but asked if I would step aside to allow others in the cashier queue to pass by, which I did.  He then disappeared and, after several minutes, returned.

 

He had spoken by phone to one of the Embassy’s accountants, who said that,  if I had no other way to pay the charge, they would accept my 100-dollar note, although at some added expense and inconvenience to them.  (Added expense and inconvenience to their citizens is of little consequence, I guess.)  I gave him my “old” note, the cashier gave me my change and receipt, and after an exchange that had gone on for more than twenty minutes, I finally got my document notarized.   I doubt that someone less inclined to become outraged and irate would have succeeded in getting the Embassy to follow the law.  It should not be this way.

 

I have since contacted my State-side attorney who has sixteen years experience as the prosecutor for the Ninth Judicial District East, Arkansas.   He said the law is clear, and the Embassy is in violation of it.   They need look no further than on the face of all Federal Reserve Notes, where it is prominently written that “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.”  There is no expiration or “use-by” date, and the whims of a Thai bank whether or not to accept a foreign note does not relieve the US Embassy from its obligations under US Federal law.   My wife and I have a few more 1996 series 100-dollar notes remaining, all in very good condition, and one of us will be returning soon to the US Embassy.  This time we will expect the currency of our country to be welcomed and readily accepted.

Has anyone had a similar experience?  If so, how did it play out?

[james1995]

You should never bring the older notes.  I bring crisp, brand new $100 bills with no tears or writing on them when I travel.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm pretty sure I saw in a recent email from ACS that for their periodic outreach visits around Thailand, that they'd only be accepting Thai bank-issued checks as payment -- not Thai baht cash or even U.S. $ cash. Don't recall there was any explanation of why...except perhaps they didn't want to have ACS employees carrying around a lot of liquid cash.

Edited February 19, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[funandsuninbangkok]

Man, some people got lots of spare time on their hands

 

 

[kannot]

Good  for  you, I had  similar crap with several embassies of different countries on another matter concerning a Schengen Visa for  my Wife. 

It was apparent none of them knew the law on this although they finally relented after a long battle and several letters to the correct govt departments.

 

[kannot]

7 hours ago, james1995 said:

You should never bring the older notes.  I bring crisp, brand new $100 bills with no tears or writing on them when I travel.

WHY not if its legal tender?

[CaptHaddock]

2 hours ago, kannot said:

WHY not if its legal tender?

Greenbacks are not legal tender in Thailand or any other country with the exception of Ecuador and Panama.  Locals have every right to refuse to accept them.  It may be that the US Embassy cannot legally refuse them, but every other entity in Thailand certainly can.

 

 

[4evermaat]

11 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

Greenbacks are not legal tender in Thailand or any other country with the exception of Ecuador and Panama.  Locals have every right to refuse to accept them.  It may be that the US Embassy cannot legally refuse them, but every other entity in Thailand certainly can.

 

 

 

This thread is specifically about the US Embassy.  This is an interesting case. 

 

I had a situation where I was dealing with USD $20 and it had marks on one side of it, so it was impossible to change it.  I had a friend visit from the USA and changed it out.  Maybe an expat who is travelling to Cambodia or USA might take those old bills off the OP's hands.  Doesn't fully solve the problem with the Embassy, but it would get you more useful cash for the future.

 

But I think it should be in the "Home Country" sub-forum.

Edited February 20, 2017 by 4evermaat

[melvinmelvin]

12 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

Greenbacks are not legal tender in Thailand or any other country with the exception of Ecuador and Panama.  Locals have every right to refuse to accept them.  It may be that the US Embassy cannot legally refuse them, but every other entity in Thailand certainly can.

 

 

 

The US Embassy to Thailand in BKK is not Thailand, its a piece of US. The US Embassy  to Thailand employees are not locals, they represent the POTUS.

 

[bluebluewater]

Well by Gawd!  You showed them . . . . .

 

I can't wait for the next episode where " we will expect the currency of our country to be welcomed and readily accepted. "

[Langsuan Man]

11 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

The US Embassy to Thailand in BKK is not Thailand, its a piece of US. The US Embassy  to Thailand employees are not locals, they represent the POTUS.

But the US Embassy does not live in a vacuum but must depend upon local banks for local banking services 

 

I don't want to name the US Bank subsidiary that the Embassy uses but the Embassy has to follow their rules on what currency they will take

 

The OP can contact his congressman and make a complaint (or use his stateside attorney and file suit) but the Embassy has to follow a set of rules that are detailed in the Foreign Affairs Manual (FAM) that set the rules that Embassies and Consulates must follow.  These policies, rules and proceedures devolve from the US Code 

 

I am sure that the US Embassy has a legal exemption for having to follow local banking rules, since embassies cannot become banks and banks can't become embassies  

 

 

[Pib]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:44 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I'm pretty sure I saw in a recent email from ACS that for their periodic outreach visits around Thailand, that they'd only be accepting Thai bank-issued checks as payment -- not Thai baht cash or even U.S. $ cash. Don't recall there was any explanation of why...except perhaps they didn't want to have ACS employees carrying around a lot of liquid cash.

 

Yeap...went into effect several months ago.  Applies to "all" Outreach visits....applies worldwide; not just for Thailand.

 

See below webline and partial quote for more details.

 

https://th.usembassy.gov/new-outreach-policy-no-cash-accepted/

 

Quote

 

Please be advised the U.S. embassy will no longer accept cash (U.S. Dollars and Thai Baht) at Outreach Events for American Citizen Services. This is a worldwide policy, and no exceptions can be considered.

All future payments at U.S. Embassy Outreach Events must be made in the form of a BANK DRAFT

• Purchased from Bangkok Bank, Kasikorn Bank, or Siam Commercial Bank (SCB). 
  • You do not need an account at the bank to purchase a bank draft.
• Purchased in advance.
• Made out to the “American Embassy Bangkok.”
• In the exact amount of Thai Baht (THB) for your total service.
• At the official embassy exchange rate at the time of the outreach. 
  • Fees and exchange rates will be included in individual outreach announcements and posted on our website.
• Submitted at the time of service.

 

 

But regarding the OP complain about the embassy not accepting older notes, while frustrating, I expect he'll fighting a windmill. Heck, it's not uncommon when doing certain things by mail with government agencies (federal, state, and local levels) in that they will not accept "cash", old or new notes....even within the U.S....must pay by money order, check, credit card, etc.     More and more govt agencies simply do not want to deal with "cash".  And I expect in the U.S. State Dept Worldwide policy for Outreach Visits they have probably had cases of robbery during the visits, maybe embassy personnel being hurt/killed during robberies, money just going missing, counterfeit money, etc....and they also have to deal with banks in countries that will only accept crisp, clean, new notes.    Yeap, probably charging/fighting a windmill here.

 

[bluebluewater]

^  Nope.  You 'ol boys are going to be proven wrong.

 

Lawyer J. Noble Daggett has made it clear to the OP that the embassy does NOT know what they are doing and - by Gawd - the next time either he or the wife darkens the embassy's door they   "  will expect the currency of our country to be welcomed and readily accepted. "

 

(Actually I know where the Ninth Judicial District East of Arkansas is and did not need to look it up!  Down there in Clark county and Arkadelphia.  So there!)

[geriatrickid]

On 2/20/2017 at 8:58 AM, melvinmelvin said:

 

The US Embassy to Thailand in BKK is not Thailand, its a piece of US. The US Embassy  to Thailand employees are not locals, they represent the POTUS.

 

No. You are wrong and very, very confused. 

The Embassy of the United States in Bangkok is not a "piece" of US. The land that the United States embassy occupies is Thai .  The land the Thai embassy occupies in the USA, is USA land, not Thai.   Can you cite any law that supports your position? 

 

I direct you to the  Vienna Convention which  governs  embassies and diplomatic missions of which the USA is a signatory. See Articles 21-25.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf

 

You are confusing the provisions of  Article 22 with "Sovereignty"

The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.

 

The US mission to Thailand represents the United States government. A President of the USA requires the  consent of the United States Senate for the appointment of an Ambassador.

The failure to obtain the consent of 2/3 of the  Senate renders the appointment invalid.

 

The reason the US embassy like many other US federal, state, county and municipal agencies no longer accept cash is because of crime. Specifically employee dishonesty, bribery, and hold up.  It is quite reasonable in  the land of bribery,  to discourage the use of cash to make it harder for employees to  accept an extra $100 during  the payment process. Cash  payments have to be deposited and Thailand is a place where people get wacked for 500 baht, anamulet  and a pack of krung thips.

 

Keep in mind that  older bank notes lack many of the  anti counterfeit  aspects of   current currency. Thailand is known for its US currency counterfeiting activity,   It was an intelligent move to  get rid of the cash aspect. Other governments have done similar and seen the money collected increase. It really does cut down the theft.

[gdgbb]

On 20/02/2017 at 8:58 PM, melvinmelvin said:

 

The US Embassy to Thailand in BKK is not Thailand, its a piece of US. The US Embassy  to Thailand employees are not locals, they represent the POTUS.

 

The US Embassy in Bangkok does not employ Thais?  Is that right?

[oobar]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:30 PM, james1995 said:

You should never bring the older notes.  I bring crisp, brand new $100 bills with no tears or writing on them when I travel.

They were crisp, new $100 bills when we brought them to Thailand -- eighteen years ago, the last time we were in the States.

[oobar]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

No. You are wrong and very, very confused. 

The Embassy of the United States in Bangkok is not a "piece" of US. The land that the United States embassy occupies is Thai .  The land the Thai embassy occupies in the USA, is USA land, not Thai.   Can you cite any law that supports your position? 

 

I direct you to the  Vienna Convention which  governs  embassies and diplomatic missions of which the USA is a signatory. See Articles 21-25.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf

 

You are confusing the provisions of  Article 22 with "Sovereignty"

The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.

 

The US mission to Thailand represents the United States government. A President of the USA requires the  consent of the United States Senate for the appointment of an Ambassador.

The failure to obtain the consent of 2/3 of the  Senate renders the appointment invalid.

 

The reason the US embassy like many other US federal, state, county and municipal agencies no longer accept cash is because of crime. Specifically employee dishonesty, bribery, and hold up.  It is quite reasonable in  the land of bribery,  to discourage the use of cash to make it harder for employees to  accept an extra $100 during  the payment process. Cash  payments have to be deposited and Thailand is a place where people get wacked for 500 baht, anamulet  and a pack of krung thips.

 

Keep in mind that  older bank notes lack many of the  anti counterfeit  aspects of   current currency. Thailand is known for its US currency counterfeiting activity,   It was an intelligent move to  get rid of the cash aspect. Other governments have done similar and seen the money collected increase. It really does cut down the theft.

Do you really think the US Embassy has trouble keeping its employees from taking bribes?  Come on, man.  And they do accept cash; they just want new cash.

[oobar]

On 2/21/2017 at 10:03 AM, Pib said:

 

Yeap...went into effect several months ago.  Applies to "all" Outreach visits....applies worldwide; not just for Thailand.

 

See below webline and partial quote for more details.

 

https://th.usembassy.gov/new-outreach-policy-no-cash-accepted/

 

 

But regarding the OP complain about the embassy not accepting older notes, while frustrating, I expect he'll fighting a windmill. Heck, it's not uncommon when doing certain things by mail with government agencies (federal, state, and local levels) in that they will not accept "cash", old or new notes....even within the U.S....must pay by money order, check, credit card, etc.     More and more govt agencies simply do not want to deal with "cash".  And I expect in the U.S. State Dept Worldwide policy for Outreach Visits they have probably had cases of robbery during the visits, maybe embassy personnel being hurt/killed during robberies, money just going missing, counterfeit money, etc....and they also have to deal with banks in countries that will only accept crisp, clean, new notes.    Yeap, probably charging/fighting a windmill here.

 

Uh, this isn't an Outreach regulation.  It's at the Embassy, where they accept cash.  They just don't want older cash.

[oobar]

On 2/21/2017 at 1:06 PM, bluebluewater said:

^  Nope.  You 'ol boys are going to be proven wrong.

 

Lawyer J. Noble Daggett has made it clear to the OP that the embassy does NOT know what they are doing and - by Gawd - the next time either he or the wife darkens the embassy's door they   "  will expect the currency of our country to be welcomed and readily accepted. "

 

(Actually I know where the Ninth Judicial District East of Arkansas is and did not need to look it up!  Down there in Clark county and Arkadelphia.  So there!)

Enjoyed this.  Cute.  Even a bit clever.  You must be either a redneck or a hillbilly.

[oobar]

Well, here's the thing, which is a little galling.  All of us law-abiding US citizens pay income tax to the IRS for the privilege of being one of its citizens (a very nice privilege in fact), no matter where we live in the world and whether or not our earnings outside the country are repatriated or not.  America is one of only two countries to tax its citizens in this manner.  Okay, that's fine.  It's the law, and for more than thirty years we have been paying those taxes on all our meager earnings in Thailand and doing so at least as happily as anyone else.  But, other than the existence of the US Embassy here, we share in none of the tax-supported services or infrastructure available to all citizens living Stateside, although we certainly pay our share (still no complaint; it's  our decision to make Thailand our home).  Moreover, we are excluded from the Affordable Care Act as well as Medicare, both tax-supported, and consequently must be our own health-care providers here.  We are in no way a drain on the resources of our home country, especially considering that we have not even been back in the States for more than eighteen years, which is why we have older currency.  Couldn't we receive at least a smidgen of service for the taxes we pay?  Is it really asking too much for the Embassy to accept its own currency as long as it is valid?  Considering all the resources of the Embassy, as well as the very generous salaries and perks given their employees that include free education for dependent children at Thailand's most expensive international school and one of the world's finest private educational institutions (paid for by taxes of citizens like us), surely there is a way ordinary lowly citizens could receive a tiny bit of sympathetic consideration in a matter like this.

[55Jay]

1 hour ago, oobar said:

Well, here's the thing, which is a little galling.  All of us law-abiding US citizens pay income tax to the IRS for the privilege of being one of its citizens (a very nice privilege in fact), no matter where we live in the world and whether or not our earnings outside the country are repatriated or not.  America is one of only two countries to tax its citizens in this manner.  Okay, that's fine.  It's the law, and for more than thirty years we have been paying those taxes on all our meager earnings in Thailand and doing so at least as happily as anyone else.  But, other than the existence of the US Embassy here, we share in none of the tax-supported services or infrastructure available to all citizens living Stateside, although we certainly pay our share (still no complaint; it's  our decision to make Thailand our home).  Moreover, we are excluded from the Affordable Care Act as well as Medicare, both tax-supported, and consequently must be our own health-care providers here.  We are in no way a drain on the resources of our home country, especially considering that we have not even been back in the States for more than eighteen years, which is why we have older currency.  Couldn't we receive at least a smidgen of service for the taxes we pay?  Is it really asking too much for the Embassy to accept its own currency as long as it is valid?  Considering all the resources of the Embassy, as well as the very generous salaries and perks given their employees that include free education for dependent children at Thailand's most expensive international school and one of the world's finest private educational institutions (paid for by taxes of citizens like us), surely there is a way ordinary lowly citizens could receive a tiny bit of sympathetic consideration in a matter like this.

Nice rant! 

 

But I think Langsuan Man might of hit the bell with his post (#11) above. 

 

Wasn't too long after the new 100s came out that I came over for a visit with a wad of 100s from my credit union.  There were 2 "old" ones in there, I never even thought about it until I went to change them in BKK and the shop wouldn't accept them.  I held onto them and re-deposited once I got home and visited the credit union.

Edited March 4, 2017 by 55Jay

[Pib]

2 hours ago, oobar said:

Uh, this isn't an Outreach regulation.  It's at the Embassy, where they accept cash.  They just don't want older cash.

My response was to a poster talking the Outreach program.

[utalkin2me]

I agree with the op, they should definitely be obligated to take legitimate treasury notes. 

 

The old notes are being phased out. In other words, they are getting fewer and fewer of these old notes because most notes probably have not been sitting in a drawer in Thailand for 18 years, they're coming from the US. 

 

It seems well within the power of an embassy to be able to take these old notes and somehow swap them for new ones from the US, where they'll be useable again. Citizens don't have this power, as exemplified here in this thread. Isn't this one of the main functions of an embassy?... to help its citizens with tasks like this that are unable to be completed without their help (e.g. Getting a new passport overseas). I suppose I could understand the embassy's standpoint better if everyone was bringing these notes in, that may present a cash flow problem. But that doesn't sound like the case to me. 

 

Lastly, and probably most obvious, it was the government's decision to phase the notes out, so shouldn't they be the ones to bear the responsibilities that task presents? 

Edited March 4, 2017 by utalkin2me

[oobar]

16 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

I agree with the op, they should definitely be obligated to take legitimate treasury notes. 

 

The old notes are being phased out. In other words, they are getting fewer and fewer of these old notes because most notes probably have not been sitting in a drawer in Thailand for 18 years, they're coming from the US. 

 

It seems well within the power of an embassy to be able to take these old notes and somehow swap them for new ones from the US, where they'll be useable again. Citizens don't have this power, as exemplified here in this thread. Isn't this one of the main functions of an embassy?... to help its citizens with tasks like this that are unable to be completed without their help (e.g. Getting a new passport overseas). I suppose I could understand the embassy's standpoint better if everyone was bringing these notes in, that may present a cash flow problem. But that doesn't sound like the case to me. 

 

Lastly, and probably most obvious, it was the government's decision to phase the notes out, so shouldn't they be the ones to bear the responsibilities that task presents? 

Yes, exactly.  The Embassy representative said the US government wanted to get the older notes out of circulation, so why can't the Embassy do its part and help to that end? 

[claffey]

'the privilege' of being an American citizen! ha.

.

[ChiangMaiLightning2143]

Actually no law exists the Embassy has to take old notes. What you have here is a purchase, not a debt. An at will transaction that has been tested in courts many times has to do with contract law. Either party, at that moment, can object to the terms of the compensation.

That is why you can't board a bus and pay with a $100 bill.

Glad the Embassy helped you out but they could have refused. The US treasury does have an office to deal with exchanges of old and even severely damaged currency.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pib]

Just because U.S. currency say its  legal tender for all debts does not mean a person/company/organization has to accept that particular legal tender for a product/service....they can be selective in what they accept....like it or not.   Just as how the U.S. Embassy - Bangkok doesn't want old notes.   See below U.S. Treasury webpage/partial quote.

 

U.S. Treasury Department

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

 

Quote

 

Legal Tender Status

 

 

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

 

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Pib