Retirement Extension Monthly Income Requirements?

[gdgbb]

Is the current monthly income requirement 65,000 baht when not taking into consideration lump sum deposits?

[elviajero]

Yes it is.

[OJAS]

And it is a gross requirement, not a net one after the jolly old taxman has taken his share.

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, OJAS said:

And it is a gross requirement, not a net one after the jolly old taxman has taken his share.

Immigration don't specify the requirement as gross or net. They will go by whatever amount is certified by their embassy.

 

They ask for evidence of income, not earnings, and it's only necessary to give the amount without specifying gross or net.

 

IMO declaring an income of 65K as gross could end up with being declined an extension.

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, elviajero said:

IMO declaring an income of 65K as gross could end up with being declined an extension.

Why do you think that?

There is nothing in the rules that they could decline it for.

[elviajero]

35 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Why do you think that?

There is nothing in the rules that they could decline it for.

Because 'the rules' ask for income not earnings.

 

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

Taxable earnings of 65K (gross) do not equal an income of 65K (net), which is the requirement.

 

As 'the rules' don't ask for the applicant to specify whether the amount declared is gross or net, I think it's better not to state either if the actual net income is less than 65K.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Because 'the rules' ask for income not earnings.

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

I can find nothing to support what you wrote.

But I am not going to reply any more to this discussion.

I will stand by my opinion it is gross income.

One interesting point I found is that the Thai revenue code does not use earnings anywhere that I could find. Only income is mentioned and that is before deductions.

 

 

[Eff1n2ret]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Because 'the rules' ask for income not earnings.

 

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

You're on thin ice with that!

 

My Oxford English Dictionary offers the following definitions:-

 

earnings (n.pl.) - money earned

income (n.) - the money or other assets received, esp. periodically or in a year, from one's business, investments, etc.

income tax (n.) - a tax levied on income.

 

The definition of income tax  can only mean that the income is earned before tax, and in practical terms the words "income" and "earnings" are interchangeable.

 

Unless the Thai authorities asked embassies to submit income verification statements showing nett amounts, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that submitting gross income statements contravenes their rules.

[elviajero]

53 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

You're on thin ice with that!

 

My Oxford English Dictionary offers the following definitions:-

 

earnings (n.pl.) - money earned

income (n.) - the money or other assets received, esp. periodically or in a year, from one's business, investments, etc.

income tax (n.) - a tax levied on income.

 

The definition of income tax  can only mean that the income is earned before tax, and in practical terms the words "income" and "earnings" are interchangeable.

 

Unless the Thai authorities asked embassies to submit income verification statements showing nett amounts, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that submitting gross income statements contravenes their rules.

I agree that the use of 'income' and 'earnings' are often interchanged. We could argue semantics all day long, but I am here to help people and give the best advice I can.

 

I do not think it is right for OJAS or ubonjoe to claim immigration are asking for gross income when they have nothing to back up that claim/opinion.

 

I was basically suggesting that applicants do not include the words gross or net so that, in the event that immigration mean net, they don't fall foul.

 

When they ask for 800K in the bank they mean an actual amount of 800K. Common sense would suggest that when they ask for an income of 65K they want someone to be in receipt of that amount. The money in the bank/income is supposed to be the money the applicant lives on.

 

IMO they expect people not to be working and in receipt of pension/investment income that is usually paid net of tax.

 

As it stands all an embassy needs to provide is an amount that the applicant claims as their income.

 

My advice is to keep it simple and assume the worst case scenario.

[sfokevin]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

Then can you define the term "Income Tax" for us?... 

Edited March 12, 2017 by sfokevin

[thailand49]

I don't think there is any rule as stated,  this is just a theory from the poster.

 

To be honest, this is a non issue as far as I'm concern.  No immigration officer is even going to have a conversation or debate regarding Income gross or net.  That has been my experience in Jomtien for 10 plus years. Such a conversation would required extensive English from a Thai and the % of it happening is slim if not none. 

If one feels their income is close to the required amount 65,000 and got to think is that Gross or Net, then do a combination of Bank savings and Income.

Just fill out the form and hand it in no need to be so anal retentive.

Edited March 13, 2017 by thailand49

[bangkoken]

This is very simple. Do you have income of 65,000 THB or more? If so, then you are good to go. You don't need to be a mathematician to figure it out.

[umbanda]

Interesting discusssion....without any sense.

What is right is what the Immigration officer thinks is right, or its day mood decide what is right. The Thai way.

[CMBob]

16 hours ago, elviajero said:

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

Taxable earnings of 65K (gross) do not equal an income of 65K (net), which is the requirement.

Respectfully disagree and would say the opposite - that income "universally" means gross income.  In any event, nobody has ever reported that any embassy or consulate (the ones which ask for proof of income) has declined to notarize the form because somebody's "net" income was below the required level. 

[Headgame]

Isn't this issue very simple. 

Provide deposit or other proof of 65,000 B per month to TH Immigration.

Never been asked to qualify or otherwise characterize that monthly deposit.

KISS

[Henryford]

I have used the British Embassy a few times to give me an "income" verification letter. They used both the gross and net figure on different occasions. I guess that would make a difference to someone who is close to the 65,000 limit.

[Wanderer555]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

Because 'the rules' ask for income not earnings.

 

Income is universally considered to be the amount received after tax.

 

Taxable earnings of 65K (gross) do not equal an income of 65K (net), which is the requirement.

 

As 'the rules' don't ask for the applicant to specify whether the amount declared is gross or net, I think it's better not to state either if the actual net income is less than 65K.

 

It depends on the status of the earnings. 

I have 'earnings' that are tax-free with my 'income' matching the 'earnings',

though my situation is unique and mot earnings are taxed at a given percentage

Cheers!.

[khunerik]

18 hours ago, elviajero said:

Immigration don't specify the requirement as gross or net. They will go by whatever amount is certified by their embassy.

 

They ask for evidence of income, not earnings, and it's only necessary to give the amount without specifying gross or net.

 

IMO declaring an income of 65K as gross could end up with being declined an extension.

I have done it with gross income every year. And my embassy write gross income on my income letter also

[stephenterry]

I provide the British Embassy with my income amount derived from my Income tax return (which is sent to them). I use gross, and the Embassy uses MY sterling figures in the income letter, bearing in mind they also include a disclaimer of any responsibility for my figures. They are well aware it's merely bureaucracy, and never in nine years has a Thai Immigration officer queried this amount as all they're interested in is calculating the relevant baht exchange rate on the day.

 

To my mind it's just yet another red-tape requirement, and providing it equals or exceeds the 65k requirement, that's enough. To worry about whether it's gross or net is pointless providing your embassy uses your figures in the income letter.

[Suradit69]

On the US embassy income verification affidavit it just says:

 

"I also affirm that I receive USD $ ________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

 

So it just says "receive," with no actual reference to "income" or "earnings" or it being net of taxes, etc.

 

And, although you can choose to have something deducted from Social Security or pension payments as a hedge against your eventual income tax due, you don't really know what you'll end up with net of taxes until you do your 1040 in April of the following year.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Suradit69

[sfokevin]

^^^ I always used the Ajusted Gross Income from the bottom of the first page of my tax return... But as others have stated the US Consul and the CM Immigration have never questioned that number... The Consul doesn't care and the Immigration office wouldn't know how to read my 30 page tax return (which I always bring along in case) ;-)...

[rawhod]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

I have used the British Embassy a few times to give me an "income" verification letter. They used both the gross and net figure on different occasions. I guess that would make a difference to someone who is close to the 65,000 limit.

 

They haven't used both the gross and net figures on different occasions, they have used the figure you have stated as being the figure you want to be put on the verification letter.

[Henryford]

21 minutes ago, rawhod said:

 

They haven't used both the gross and net figures on different occasions, they have used the figure you have stated as being the figure you want to be put on the verification letter.

No they didn't. I never quoted any figures. THEY took the figures from tax returns i provided.

[jenifer d]

20 hours ago, elviajero said:

Immigration don't specify the requirement as gross or net. They will go by whatever amount is certified by their embassy.

 

They ask for evidence of income, not earnings, and it's only necessary to give the amount without specifying gross or net.

 

IMO declaring an income of 65K as gross could end up with being declined an extension.

our head guy here told me that even net just at or above 65k could result in declination, depending on the immigration officer's whim...

(and mine is 90+, unspecified as gross or net)

[smotherb]

3 hours ago, Headgame said:

Isn't this issue very simple. 

Provide deposit or other proof of 65,000 B per month to TH Immigration.

Never been asked to qualify or otherwise characterize that monthly deposit.

KISS

Well, if you deposit B65k, that has to be net, does it not?

 

I see nowhere that you have  to deposit B65k or its equivalent to your Thai bank

Edited March 13, 2017 by smotherb
to add second sentence

[Jorgendk]

I asked the Danish embassy for a letter stating my income for use for emigration.

The embassy vantet a copy of my Danish tax return send to them.

They then wrote ( in English) that I have a income of xxx dkr. pr year which is taxable in Denmark.

The emigration used the gross income, and converted that using the exchange rate of the day.

They then granted me the extension without any problem.

But I expect it might be different from embassy to embassy what they put in the letter, and different from emigration to emigration how they use the rules.

 

[OJAS]

18 hours ago, elviajero said:

I do not think it is right for OJAS or ubonjoe to claim immigration are asking for gross income when they have nothing to back up that claim/opinion.

Well, you have nothing to back up your claim that Immigration are asking for net income, within their rules don't you?!!

 

And we are not just talking about pensions here. I am also in receipt of rent on the house in the UK I used to live in before moving out here and still own. I am not taxed on this rent at source and only pay HMRC the necessary tax after I have provided them with a tax return for the tax year in question. Are you really seriously suggesting that I might need to make some "finger-in-the-air" estimate of the tax due on my property rent in advance of receiving any formal notification of this from HMRC, for annual extension of stay income (or is it earnings?) confirmation purposes?

Edited March 13, 2017 by OJAS

[Tony125]

18 hours ago, gillespayet said:

"...Si le montant moyen de la pension brute de droit direct, tous régimes confondus, s'établit à 1.306 euros bruts mensuels en décembre 2013, la pension nette, elle, s'élève à 1.216 euros. Mais attention, il s'agit d'une moyenne du montant des pensions. Elle mélange donc tous les retraités qu'ils aient eu une carrière complète ou incomplète. Pour ceux pouvant justifier d'une carrière complète, cette moyenne monte à 1.730 euros mensuels..."

 

in France, the medium retirement pension is 1306 euros (before taxes)... ( 1 euro = 37 baths which means 48332 baths /month.

Actually less because of taxes...

After 42 years of full time work one can have 1730 euros/month which is 64010 baths/month before french goverment taxes.

 

That means a few french people can retire in Thaïland as long as I just read that 65000 baths monthly income is necessary...

 

As country where most people desire to retire, there are some as Marocco, Maurice Island, Portugal, Spain, and Thaïland...

As long as as the prices of food and beverages and housing become more and more expensive in Thaïland ( nearly as expensive as in France), it will be more and more difficult to retire in ThaÏland...As the money left after the second year (800 000 baths =21650 euros in a Thaï bank account) for the retired visa, it will become only possible to retire when you are wealthy but then if you are wealthy, why retire in Thailand?

 

The reason why people desire to retire in some other country than their own, is because their medium salary authorise them to live correctly as long as in their own country, after a life of full work, it has become impossible...

 

If my informations are exact, the minimum  salary in Thailand could be around 300 euros/month ( 11100 baths if 1 euro = 37 baths)

 

So retired people should be able to benefit of 5,85  times this amount...(after french taxes upon  the annual income)

 

Well, well...

 

 

I guess you are not aware that the 800,000 baht in Thai bank for a year or 65,000 baht per month can be a combo of the two. So if say the French med retirement is only 48,000 baht a month they could keep in Thai bank an amount that would bring the the average monthly income up to 65,000 baht.

Your comment about if people had good money they would stay in their own country not come to Thailand. Your opinion but not true for me. I lived in Boston, MA USA retired with good pension could live anywhere in USA or most of the world but got tired of the snow, cold and rather be in Thailand with beautiful women , warm weather great cheap food and many other perks.

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Well, you have nothing to back up your claim that Immigration are asking for net income, within their rules don't you?!!

I didn't claim they are asking for net income, I said they are asking for "income", and gave an example of how "earnings" and "income" could be interpreted. As the language used ("income") is open to interpretation, IMO, it is safer to assume they mean the money received, which would generally be considered net income. IMO immigration want applicants to be in receipt of at least 65K.

 

If someone wants to give immigration a letter quoting a gross income of 65K that's their lookout. I would simple give a letter quoting an income of 65K which is what is asked for.

 

You are the one making a definitive claim that needs backing up. I am simply warning people not to rely on your claim and to play it safe.

[rawhod]

5 hours ago, Henryford said:

No they didn't. I never quoted any figures. THEY took the figures from tax returns i provided.

As long as I have been doing retirement extensions, and I have been here seven years, at Chiang Mai British Consulate or by post at the British Embassy in Bangkok, they have required the applicant to compete a form which asks for your address and a list of the pensions etc. , in GBP,  which you total up for the income figure to be declared on the Income Statement.

 

This is the current form required by British Embassy Bangkok. Previous forms have been very similar.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/573863/Pension_7_12_16.pdf