Check freon

[Lumbini]

How much should I pay to have the air con in room to have its freon checked and toped off ? Also how much to have the unit insides and outside cleaned ? The room is small only about 40 meters but air con blows hard and air is not very cold so I guess that's why unit has to work so hard and bill so high ? Thanks [emoji120]

[lopburi3]

Normal cleaning seems to run about 4-600 baht from most reports and well worth the price at least yearly.  40sm is not a small room however - that would be almost 2 normal hotel rooms.

[Lumbini]

Thanks does that price cover the freon top up ? Thanks

[lopburi3]

Have never required as part of cleaning but expect that might be extra.  Units should not need normally.

[tutsiwarrior]

I had 2 units cleaned and serviced recently and it was 1000baht fer both...made a big difference in the operation...

[kannot]

about  500 baht but i do my own inside and out, really if  you need any gas then........................you have a problem, it also is a "nice  little  earner" for some aircon cleaners

[longball53098]

Be skeptical if you have a guy "check" the gas in a unit. Would not be unusual for him to drain out some of the gas without you knowing then charging some excessive price per kilo for the gas.

 

Do a cleaning first about 500B per machine and an hour time in most cases. See how they run then. Then consider a gassing. Most decent services will do this

[johng]

Yes the gas should not need topping up at every clean  its ( should be) a 100% closed system  like a refrigerator  but micro leaks can happen and it can take a long time for enough refrigerant escapes to notice  the performance loss..eventually it just wont be cold and the "technician" takes the easier /cheaper option of just topping up.

Find the leak,recover the refrigerant,solder/braze the leak,vacuum test for no more leaks and then refill the refrigerant...is much more of a job !

[fruitman]

Price for the gas is up to how much they have to use to fill it. But for Freon it will be less than 500 i assume...the other gas (ozonlayer friendly one) costs much much more though...10 times more.

[topt]

12 hours ago, longball53098 said:

Be skeptical if you have a guy "check" the gas in a unit. Would not be unusual for him to drain out some of the gas without you knowing then charging some excessive price per kilo for the gas.

 

Do a cleaning first about 500B per machine and an hour time in most cases. See how they run then. Then consider a gassing. Most decent services will do this

If you get a recommended company to do the cleaning ask them to check the gas levels and then make a note of what they say for the next check. Better still also find out what the recommended level should be before they do the test. Unlike longball53098 ()the company I used had no problems with me looking closely when they were testing the levels. I have a note of them and check every year to see if any change.

 

As others have said if they do need topping up then something else probably needs fixing.

 

The other issue is maybe whether the ac unit is correctly sized for the room.

[Pib]

You shouldn't need to top-up refrigerant (a.k.a., freon) unless there is a small leak.  Gosh, I've got 7 A/Cs in my house...going on 9 years old...none of the have required a top-up.

 

Now, when an A/C gets dirty its cooling performance can drop off quite a bit...and start eating a lot more kilowatt hours of electricity which means a higher electric bill.  Both the A/C's  inside and outside units need to be cleaned.  Typically a cleaning should run around Bt600...give or take a few hundred baht.

 

 

 

 

[Lumbini]

Thanks for all this , when you rent it's hard to get owner to really get best cleaning possible but I will push for it and watch . I take such good care of one of my places that I rent but frustrating that owners may cut corners thinking they will need to pay .

[01322521959]

I usually get the gas checked. I look at the gauge when the do it. The magical figure is 75-85% I've been told. My Daikin is 20 years old and puts my new Daikin in the bedroom to shame. New ones use creaky plastic.

Sent from my i-mobile_i-STYLE_219 using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[KittenKong]

In Pattaya the standard cleaning charge (should include inside, outside and the drainage tube) is 400B and up. Mine needs doing every 4-6 months.

 

I have yet to find anyone who is consistent. One place that charged 600B did not clean the drain pipe properly and it soon clogged up causing a huge water leak onto the floor inside. I got them back and they said that a new larger drain pipe was needed. So that was fitted. The thing clogged up again within a week or so, so I took it apart myself and found that the blockage (algae) was actually in the movable pipe that forms part of the aircon and not in the fixed drain pipe. I cleaned that small flexible pipe myself and have had no trouble since.

 

The latest people to do my cleaning did a good job for 400B and this included properly flushing out the drain pipe and properly cleaning the outdoor unit which most other companies seem to largely ignore. They also did the flexible pipe. I will get them back again next time.

 

That said, in the shop when I made the appointment the lady was very clear about the price: 400B all-in but any gas needed would be 20B/kg extra. On the day the guys did the cleaning and then checked the gas pressure. Their meter showed 9 out of a possible 10, though the measurement could have been in pounds, kg, percentages, or zlotys per cubic light-year. They then told me that the extra gas would be 30B per kg. I pointed out that the lady had said 20B, and they indicated that my aircon uses the new gas which costs more. Fair enough. So then I asked how many kg are needed at 30B per kg. And that's where it all stalled. We could get no further than 30B/kg. Even counting out 1, 2 , 3.... or 30, 60, 90... there was no way to get them to say how many kgs were needed and what the total cost would be. In the end they called the shop and the lady said 10kg needed. But if my unit is already at 9/10 (ie indicating at worst a shortfall of 10 percent) there is no way that it can possibly need an extra 10kg as that would put the total required up to 100kg. So did she mean that it only has 9kg and a total of 10kg is needed, so 1kg extra? If so, why not say so? Incomprehension all round. Then the lady said it can wait till next time anyway. So I'm still none the wiser, I still have 9 out of 10 and the air-con works fine.

Edited March 18, 2017 by KittenKong

[topt]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

In Pattaya the standard cleaning charge (should include inside, outside and the drainage tube) is 400B and up. Mine needs doing every 4-6 months.

 

I have yet to find anyone who is consistent. One place that charged 600B did not clean the drain pipe properly and it soon clogged up causing a huge water leak onto the floor inside. I got them back and they said that a new larger drain pipe was needed. So that was fitted. The thing clogged up again within a week or so, so I took it apart myself and found that the blockage (algae) was actually in the movable pipe that forms part of the aircon and not in the fixed drain pipe. I cleaned that small flexible pipe myself and have had no trouble since.

 

The latest people to do my cleaning did a good job for 400B and this included properly flushing out the drain pipe and properly cleaning the outdoor unit which most other companies seem to largely ignore. They also did the flexible pipe. I will get them back again next time.

 

That said, in the shop when I made the appointment the lady was very clear about the price: 400B all-in but any gas needed would be 20B/kg extra. On the day the guys did the cleaning and then checked the gas pressure. Their meter showed 9 out of a possible 10, though the measurement could have been in pounds, kg, percentages, or zlotys per cubic light-year. They then told me that the extra gas would be 30B per kg. I pointed out that the lady had said 20B, and they indicated that my aircon uses the new gas which costs more. Fair enough. So then I asked how many kg are needed at 30B per kg. And that's where it all stalled. We could get no further than 30B/kg. Even counting out 1, 2 , 3.... or 30, 60, 90... there was no way to get them to say how many kgs were needed and what the total cost would be. In the end they called the shop and the lady said 10kg needed. But if my unit is already at 9/10 (ie indicating at worst a shortfall of 10 percent) there is no way that it can possibly need an extra 10kg as that would put the total required up to 100kg. So did she mean that it only has 9kg and a total of 10kg is needed, so 1kg extra? If so, why not say so? Incomprehension all round. Then the lady said it can wait till next time anyway. So I'm still none the wiser, I still have 9 out of 10 and the air-con works fine.

KK if you don't mind who were the latest people as I am still using PK normally but it would be useful to have another number if needed?

[Pib]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

In Pattaya the standard cleaning charge (should include inside, outside and the drainage tube) is 400B and up. Mine needs doing every 4-6 months.

 

I have yet to find anyone who is consistent. One place that charged 600B did not clean the drain pipe properly and it soon clogged up causing a huge water leak onto the floor inside. I got them back and they said that a new larger drain pipe was needed. So that was fitted. The thing clogged up again within a week or so, so I took it apart myself and found that the blockage (algae) was actually in the movable pipe that forms part of the aircon and not in the fixed drain pipe. I cleaned that small flexible pipe myself and have had no trouble since.

 

The latest people to do my cleaning did a good job for 400B and this included properly flushing out the drain pipe and properly cleaning the outdoor unit which most other companies seem to largely ignore. They also did the flexible pipe. I will get them back again next time.

 

That said, in the shop when I made the appointment the lady was very clear about the price: 400B all-in but any gas needed would be 20B/kg extra. On the day the guys did the cleaning and then checked the gas pressure. Their meter showed 9 out of a possible 10, though the measurement could have been in pounds, kg, percentages, or zlotys per cubic light-year. They then told me that the extra gas would be 30B per kg. I pointed out that the lady had said 20B, and they indicated that my aircon uses the new gas which costs more. Fair enough. So then I asked how many kg are needed at 30B per kg. And that's where it all stalled. We could get no further than 30B/kg. Even counting out 1, 2 , 3.... or 30, 60, 90... there was no way to get them to say how many kgs were needed and what the total cost would be. In the end they called the shop and the lady said 10kg needed. But if my unit is already at 9/10 (ie indicating at worst a shortfall of 10 percent) there is no way that it can possibly need an extra 10kg as that would put the total required up to 100kg. So did she mean that it only has 9kg and a total of 10kg is needed, so 1kg extra? If so, why not say so? Incomprehension all round. Then the lady said it can wait till next time anyway. So I'm still none the wiser, I still have 9 out of 10 and the air-con works fine.

 

You must have had one HUGE A/C to need 10KG of refrigerant.  I have York A/Cs and each has a specification plate on the side specifying how many KG/Lbs are needed for the system i..e, inside unit, outside unit, plus normal length piping).   My 18,540K BTU requires requires a total 2.1KG (two point one) of R-22 refrigerant.   Took a look at an almost 23K BTU York A/C I have and it requires 2.6KG total charge.   And this total charge normally includes up to around 20 meter of piping between the inside and outside unit.

 

Gosh, 10KG would be two-thirds the size of the typical LPG cooking gas bottle which contains approx 15KG of LPG.  Yes, I know LPG is not used in your A/C....just using that as physical example size since most folks in Thailand know what the little of knee high LPG cooking gas bottle looks like.

 

Plus, refrigerant costs a lot more than 10 or 20 baht per KG.  

 

Me thinks there was a miscommunication and/or they were trying to scam you.  It's a well know scam...hook a bottle of refrigerant up to the A/C, act like they are adding refrigerant (but they are not or only open the valve ever so slightly in case  you are looking but not enough to allow an significant filling of refrigerant), take some more pressure measurements, and pronounce the A/C topped up. 

 

Below is a snapshot of the label on the side of my 18K BTU A/C showing 2.1KG needed.

 

 

And below is partial quote from an A/C web site talking "generally" how much refrigerant is needed for a 3 Ton (36K BTU) A/C....it says up to approx 6 to 12 pounds, which is 2.7 to 5.4KG.    But it could be less...a person needs to look at the label on the unit...if not on the label then the proper amount needs to be looked up in the A/C's specifications.

 

[Pib]

Also, I've seen two post above where two posters referred to a charge level of like 75-85% or 9 out of 10.  You got any more details on that?

 

A/C gauges only show refrigerant pressure and temperature scales.   And the temperature scales vary depending on the refrigerant.

[Pib]

Well, I'll take it back that refrigerant costs a lot more than 10 or 20 baht per KG (excluding labor) here in Thailand.   Based on this cut and paste from a A/C seller and maintainer in Bangkok they charge 25 baht per "pound" which means a kilogram would cost around Bt55 which is not a "lot" more than 20 baht.   Yea,  55 is more than double 20 but is still a small amount of money since an A/C system doesn't hold that much refrigerant.  

 

Still seems awfully cheap but I've been use to buying buying R-12 or R-134A refrigerant over the years in the U.S. in small 1 pound cans.....and some R-134A top-ups on automobiles here in Thailand which also includes a labor cost/some other maintenance.

    

So, if you are having some maintenance done on your A/C like cleaning, repair, etc.,  the basic product cost (excluding labor) for adding/refilling/topping-up refrigerant should be low.    Below also indicates their cleaning service is Bt700 for A/Cs up to 25K BTU.

 

[harrry]

we get our airconditioner that is in daily 24 hr use cleaned once every three months inside and out and the others 4 in total in two houses once a year.  The cost inside and out of  anormal service is 300 baht and sometimes there is 50 baht extra for gas.  This year he asked to do a complete clean for the one that has been used nonstop for 5 years for which he charged 1000 baht a job which took him two hours and completely dismanting and removing all parts for cleaning etc,  Runs like a drem now.  this is in Chiangrai.

[Pib]

Different levels/degrees of cleaning as mentioned in several posts.  Some A/C techs may not remove the inside unit (i.e, the evaporator unit) housing cover in order to do the best possible cleaning.   They may just open the filter cover and clean that area.  Many times the inside unit plastic housing/cover needs to be completely removed to have any hope in pressure washing the back part of the evaporator coils/fins which comprise about 25% of the coils/fins.    But some A/C techs may not want to remove the housing as it makes the job take longer and there is the possibly of some minor damage to the housing if not removed properly.

 

Very important to ensure the inside unit's spinning/round/cage fan is pressure washer to get all the crud off....doesn't take a lot of crud build-up on the cage fan to really degrade its ability to create good airflow through the evaporator cooling coils and to push that cooled air out into your room.   Now you could have all kinds of crud/dust/grime build up on a floor/desk fan without affecting it's airflow pushing capability much, but on a cage fan used on the inside unit of A/C it does not take much crud to really degrade the air flow capability/volume.   Dirty cage fans can also cause uneven air flow "across the entire output vent" of the A/C....or even no air flow out of parts of the vent...plus make the A/C noisy.

 

How often you clean your A/C can depending on many things....how much you use it...the environment it's used in, etc.  For me and the two units I run about 24/7 I need to clean the inside part twice a year and the associated outside part once a  year.   If I don't clean the inside unit twice a year the cage fan get too much crud built-up on it and degrades the air flow

 

And once a year (more often if desired) be sure the outside unit (i.e., condenser/compressor unit) is cleaned with a pressure washer or strong water hose....not just sprayed on the outside but water forced through the coils/fins to push the dirt out.  Dirty outside unit coils/fins will degrade the A/C's cooling capability and cause more power usage (bigger electric bill) more than if only the inside unit is dirty.  

 

Summary: keep your entire A/C system, inside and outside unit, clean.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Pib

[lopburi3]

As said the entire case covers/vanes/filters should be removed and cleaned in bath/kitchen area outside - when everything removed plastic sheeting used to direct water into 5 gal cans and detergent power wash/rinse of all coils/fins (and you will notice how black the water is).  Once clean power air to dry and the reassemble everything.  This normally means also removing controls to keep them dry.  

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, topt said:

KK if you don't mind who were the latest people as I am still using PK normally but it would be useful to have another number if needed?

 

It was this place: https://goo.gl/maps/1smLKQaj4hE2

 

Not sure that the name is still the same though. Or maybe it's just the sign that has changed.

[KittenKong]

7 hours ago, Pib said:

You must have had one HUGE A/C to need 10KG of refrigerant. 

 

Well, this was the point of my post. There is nothing at all unusual about my aircon (21kBTU) and no matter how I looked at it I couldnt work out how it could possibly need so much gas, especially as it wasnt empty.

 

 

7 hours ago, Pib said:

Plus, refrigerant costs a lot more than 10 or 20 baht per KG.  

 

The price I was quoted (20-30) seems to be about right and compares with other places I have asked in around here. The only completely incomprehensible part was how much would be needed.

 

 

4 hours ago, Pib said:

 Below also indicates their cleaning service is Bt700 for A/Cs up to 25K BTU

 

The 400B I paid is fairly standard for here. Some places charge more, but not many.

[topt]

15 hours ago, Pib said:

Also, I've seen two post above where two posters referred to a charge level of like 75-85% or 9 out of 10.  You got any more details on that?

 

A/C gauges only show refrigerant pressure and temperature scales.   And the temperature scales vary depending on the refrigerant.

When I had all mine checked last year I was given readings of between 74 and 76 for the pressure in each - what that figure referred to I am not sure but one of them matched a figure I was given by a different company a few years before.

 

However I have a note that with a different company in 2013 one of the ACs measured at 60 and they added 20 for which I think they charged an extra 500 baht - however since they eventually turned out less than honourable I am now not certain that was legitimate....... 

[topt]

13 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

As said the entire case covers/vanes/filters should be removed and cleaned in bath/kitchen area outside - when everything removed plastic sheeting used to direct water into 5 gal cans and detergent power wash/rinse of all coils/fins (and you will notice how black the water is).  Once clean power air to dry and the reassemble everything.  This normally means also removing controls to keep them dry.  

I must admit I have never had anybody use detergent - or not that I noticed? Everything else fairly standard except I have to make a point that they also clean the compressors when I book the job.

 

Quote

14 hours ago, Pib said:

Below also indicates their cleaning service is Bt700 for A/Cs up to 25K BTU.

 

As KK said Pattaya standard charge normally 400 baht per AC

[Pib]

3 hours ago, topt said:

When I had all mine checked last year I was given readings of between 74 and 76 for the pressure in each - what that figure referred to I am not sure but one of them matched a figure I was given by a different company a few years before.

 

However I have a note that with a different company in 2013 one of the ACs measured at 60 and they added 20 for which I think they charged an extra 500 baht - however since they eventually turned out less than honourable I am now not certain that was legitimate....... 

A pressure reading on the low pressure port of around 75 psi is normal, but if it was around 75 on the high pressure port also that means the A/C was not even running and the pressure has equalize throughout the system...low and high side.  Or the A/C was running and the refrigerant was very, very low....the A/C probably would probably not have been cooling at all.  

 

Assuming your A/C is a type that uses R-22 refrigerant which most older models use, with the A/C running and the outside temperature being around 35C then the low pressure port should have been approx 80 psi and the high pressure approx 238psi.  But the pressures vary somewhat from model to model and size of A/C.   See below R-22 pressure-temperature chart and the areas I circled in red for an 18K BTU A/C...Suction means low pressure side....Liquid means high pressure side.

 

And if using a different type of refrigerant, like R32 or R410 for example, then there are different pressures as each refrigerant has its own pressure-temperature characteristics....would use a different chart than below R-22 example chart.

 

Where you say they added 20, maybe thye just added enough refrigerant to bring the low pressure up by 20 psi more which wouldn't have required much refrigerant at all...maybe 30 baht worth of R-22....but of course they have to add thier labor/service cost which is probably what the 500 baht was really for....sounds fair enough especially since he had to spend time and transportation costs to come to your residence....bring equipment to your residence...risk injury by getting to the outside unit which might have been mounted high on on an outside wall, etc.

 

But during unneeded work or acting like work is being done such as supposedly adding refrigerant at a healthy cost or charging a ripoff price for work is no doubt a practice used by some A/C maintenance techs....they probably just view it as making a living.  

 

Another ripoff A/C techs sometimes do is saying they needed to change the outdoor unit compressor "startup capacitor" and/or outdoor unit's fan "run capacitor," both of which cost about Bt50 each at an Amorn Electronics store....but the techs may charge up to Bt600 for each capacitor and not tell you until the work is done and they present you with the bill to include the old capacitors (which could still be good).   I have 7 A/Cs in my home but only routinely use 2 or3...and I have a spare startup and run capacitor which I bought at Amorn....they are not hard to replace at all if you can access your outdoor unit and don't mind removing and reattaching a couple of electrical wires that hook to the capacitors.   Over 9 years with my A/Cs I've need to change two startup capacitors and one run capacitor.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lumbini]

They came out and said freon was low and possibly a leak so put two holes in the ceiling and replaced the whole line from unit in the inside to the outside compressor / fan . The owner of my condo just accepted what they said and paid the 4000 baht fee for replacing whole line , cleaning and putting freon back in . Unit still not that cold ( if you put thermometer on from of unit where vent blows it's about 63 degrees Fahrenheit ? Maybe that is good but i thought has to be able to go lower to get room on hot day 70

[Lumbini]

They came out and said freon was low and possibly a leak so put two holes in the ceiling and replaced the whole line from unit in the inside to the outside compressor / fan . The owner of my condo just accepted what they said and paid the 4000 baht fee for replacing whole line , cleaning and putting freon back in . Unit still not that cold ( if you put thermometer on from of unit where vent blows it's about 63 degrees Fahrenheit ? Maybe that is good but i thought has to be able to go lower to get room on hot day 70

[KittenKong]

21 hours ago, topt said:

I must admit I have never had anybody use detergent - or not that I noticed?

 

Occasionally  some of the people who have cleaned my aircon have used some sort of chemical product, generally at my insistence when I want to be sure that they are properly cleaned. It's a yellow liquid that they mix with water and squirt on, and which then froths up quite dramatically. Generally they make an extra charge of a few tens of Baht for this.

 

I would have thought that putting a squirt of some degreasing agent (washing-up liquid?) in the water jet would be standard practice, but it doesnt seem to be.

[johng]

This is the fan wheel from my bedroom aircon after less than 6 months from last cleaning

 

 it was filthy and to clean to without a pressure washer was not a nice task, its extremely fiddly to take the fan out and clean it in the bathroom, I did that once and spent the rest of the day cursing the designer of the stupid thing because it was so difficult to get back in place...

( why don't they make the fan assembly sit on the top of the evaporator unit  in an easy to slot in/out fixture)

so this time I made a small cleaning implement from  small strip of perspex  wrapped in a layer of cloth both sides which could reach right into the slots + an old toothbrush 

and spent a good 2 hours cleaning the thing in situ ( there is a surprisingly large surface area to clean)

with a solution of washing up liquid and then bleach from a hand pumped squirty bottle.

this time I also used the squirty bottle to clean the evaporator radiator fins and it worked quite well.

 

for a deep clean this stuff works well but is not nice to use

  the fumes are bad it eats into  coatings on spectacle lenses and other plastic surfaces  it even stained some black ceramic tiles

and turns skin to soap   so you need to wear eye protection and rubber gloves and try not to breath in the fumes.

 

before everyone asks "why not just pay someone to clean it for you"    well because its very difficult to find a reliable,experienced,trustworthy company that will just do the clean,don't break things and not insist on "topping up the freon"

you also have to watch them like a hawk...and they mostly "forget"  to clean the sludge build up in the evaporated water discharge pipe so that in the evening after they cleaned you get a nice waterfall on the inside of your wall !

 

18 hours ago, Pib said:

Another ripoff A/C techs sometimes do is saying they needed to change the outdoor unit compressor "startup capacitor" and/or outdoor unit's fan

Those big metal can capacitors are about 300 baht at Amorn (in Pattaya)   the smaller square black plastic ones are as you say about 50 baht

Edited March 20, 2017 by johng