Govt floats long-term land leases for foreigners

[impulse]

9 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

I hate that you call corruption culture.

 

Corruption is just one part of a precariously balanced cultural ecosystem.  And like any ecosystem, if you mess with one part, you're going to have unintended consequences in others.

 

I'm not a fan of the corruption.  But I understand that it fits into Thailand's economic fabric, even if I don't understand all the ways it fits in.  

 

I don't play it for sport, trying to see how badly I can behave because I can buy my way out.  But if a cop pulls me over for a non-infraction and asks me for 200 baht or my driver's license, I'm handing over 200 baht.  Because the other option is going to cost more of my money and more of my precious spare time.

 

And I reject any criticism that says I have the right, let alone the responsibility to mess with that ecosystem.  I'm a guest- with a very limited understanding of the consequences of any evangelizing I may do. 

 

[laochef]

Back in the '80s, I knew a guy from the UK. What he said, was that over 2 years he bought 2 houses, with land, neighbouring, i.e. 2 Chanotes. Both in the name of his FUTURE Father in Law (He was not officially married to his GF). Then he did get married, and his Father in Law gave him 1 House as a dowry. This was accepted at the Land Department and his name was put in the Chanote as the owner. The Father in Law was deemed wealthy enough, with 2 houses, 2 cars and a healthy bank account, that he could give away 1 house to his Son in Law. Notable is also that he (the farang) was the ONLY owner of the house, his, now, wife was not in the Chanote. (I did see his Chanote at that time)

Has anyone else heard, or know, if this is really do-able ?

[xylophone]

13 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

the corruption literally was bottom to top, nothing like in Thailand where corruption is a bit on the side.

 

 Yet look at it today, everything is back to normal, it took the will of the people to change it, and change it they did.

Well thats where we will have to disagree..........

 

If you think that corruption in Thailand is "just a bit on the side" then you sadly don't know how it works here because it is the way that the country is operated and those people that "operate it" (the powerful, the rich, the elite, the untouchables) ensure that the corruption network works well because that's how they get their income and power.

 

They don't want it to change and will occasionally pay "lip service" to the international pressure regarding corruption, however they ensure that it continues for their own good. And to give you  a good example, why do you think the military are buying submarines from China? Do you think that Thailand's coastline needs protecting – – not a chance, it's because of the backhander which will be paid to those in power. This and many other examples stand out; the administrators, mayors and police chiefs etc are not promoted to these positions, their families buy them for them because they know how much money will flow into their coffers from the corruption that exists to feed these positions..........and so on. If you've been here long enough you will know this.

 

And as for the "will of the people changing it", well there's very little chance of that happening because in surveys carried out something like 70 to 80% of everyday Thai folk think that corruption is fine provided they get something out of it.

 

So you see the people don't want to change it because that's all they know and it is a way of life here – – built into the processes and positions which run, rule and govern the country to ensure that the people at the top benefit.

 

Anyway as we have agreed, not really the subject of the thread, so we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

 

[selftaopath]

On 3/24/2017 at 4:50 PM, NCC1701A said:

seeing how Farangs can lease land 100% legally for 30 years now, I don't really see how this will change things except for business owners who are very young and can see the future.

 

and you cannot legally own land in Thailand, no matter how any people tell you that you can.

 

 

I think other countries should extend the same "courtesy" to Thais.

[the guest]

The law changes here like the weather, why would you put your trust in a country that has only contempt for it's foreign visitors? I'd rather buy a property on the moon, at least I have more chance of keeping it.

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

Well thats where we will have to disagree..........

 

If you think that corruption in Thailand is "just a bit on the side" then you sadly don't know how it works here because it is the way that the country is operated and those people that "operate it" (the powerful, the rich, the elite, the untouchables) ensure that the corruption network works well because that's how they get their income and power.

 

They don't want it to change and will occasionally pay "lip service" to the international pressure regarding corruption, however they ensure that it continues for their own good. And to give you  a good example, why do you think the military are buying submarines from China? Do you think that Thailand's coastline needs protecting – – not a chance, it's because of the backhander which will be paid to those in power. This and many other examples stand out; the administrators, mayors and police chiefs etc are not promoted to these positions, their families buy them for them because they know how much money will flow into their coffers from the corruption that exists to feed these positions..........and so on. If you've been here long enough you will know this.

 

And as for the "will of the people changing it", well there's very little chance of that happening because in surveys carried out something like 70 to 80% of everyday Thai folk think that corruption is fine provided they get something out of it.

 

So you see the people don't want to change it because that's all they know and it is a way of life here – – built into the processes and positions which run, rule and govern the country to ensure that the people at the top benefit.

 

Anyway as we have agreed, not really the subject of the thread, so we will have to agree to disagree. 

 

 

 

What you have described is actually just a bit on the side, unlike some countries where the corruption prevents anything from happening at all, in Thailand things continue to function, it is not all that bad here, it's a big issue but when we observe cases around the world, cases that looked completely lost but have turned themselves around, we can see that there is a very good chance for Thailand.

 

And you may look at that statistic as a lost cause, but I look at it as a need to educate, to turn around the relatively slim difference between the minority and the majority and turn it into the majority who see corruption as a problem, obviously it is doable.

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, laochef said:

Back in the '80s, I knew a guy from the UK. What he said, was that over 2 years he bought 2 houses, with land, neighbouring, i.e. 2 Chanotes. Both in the name of his FUTURE Father in Law (He was not officially married to his GF). Then he did get married, and his Father in Law gave him 1 House as a dowry. This was accepted at the Land Department and his name was put in the Chanote as the owner. The Father in Law was deemed wealthy enough, with 2 houses, 2 cars and a healthy bank account, that he could give away 1 house to his Son in Law. Notable is also that he (the farang) was the ONLY owner of the house, his, now, wife was not in the Chanote. (I did see his Chanote at that time)

Has anyone else heard, or know, if this is really do-able ?

 

I presume it was just the house and not the land it was on.

[impulse]

34 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Youre also part of the problem.

 

I can live with that, and sleep quite well.

 

I also drive a vehicle, so I'm part of the traffic, pollution, global warming and a dozen other problems related to global trade and waste disposal.

 

I eat meat, so I'm part of the water problem and methane problem and animal cruelty problem.

 

I shop at 7/11 so I'm part of the plastic bag problem- even if I decline them 9 visits out of 10.

 

I flew into Thailand, so I'm part of the high altitude contrails problem, global warming and half a dozen other problems.

 

I poop and pee in a country that doesn't do much before they dump my waste into the river and sea.

 

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.  Just walking on this earth with clothes on makes me part of 100 problems.  You, too. 

 

So I focus on the ones I can impact, don't lecture anyone on their shortcomings (people in glass houses...), and go on with my own life- pitiful as it is.

Edited March 26, 2017 by impulse

[AGareth2]

^ he would have to sell it to a Thai within 180 days

[xylophone]

9 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

What you have described is actually just a bit on the side, unlike some countries where the corruption prevents anything from happening at all, in Thailand things continue to function, it is not all that bad here, it's a big issue but when we observe cases around the world, cases that looked completely lost but have turned themselves around, we can see that there is a very good chance for Thailand.

 

And you may look at that statistic as a lost cause, but I look at it as a need to educate, to turn around the relatively slim difference between the minority and the majority and turn it into the majority who see corruption as a problem, obviously it is doable.

"What you have described is actually just a bit on the side, unlike some countries where the corruption prevents anything from happening at all, in Thailand things continue to function".

 

I am obviously at fault because I can't fully describe how things work here and even if I could, I wouldn't want to put it in print for obvious reasons.

 

Corruption isn't "just a bit on the side" it is built into every aspect of governance and life here and the reason things work is because of that! Everyone needs things to "work" here so that they get their cut of the corruption.........that's why it works!!! It is built into the system and the system is made to benefit those who participate in corrupt practices and to all intents and purposes that's the majority.

 

"The need to educate" is a nice turn of phrase, but the reason why the education system is so dysfunctional at the lower level is because that's the way the powers that be need it to be, so that the system keeps on functioning with corruption built in.

 

It won't change, it can't change, it is endemic it is damn near genetic.

 

Now onto those 30+30+30 year leases............and would you believe just the other day I heard a UK farang property salesman here describing that very scenario to a prospective buyer. Seems like the country attracts those folk who operate best in a corrupt environment. Go figure.

 

[Gary A]

A long term lease may be pretty safe but if you consider your heirs, they will have nothing when the lease expires. Other than my condo which I bought in my name before we were married, everything else is in my wife's name. No crooked lawyers or land offices to deal with. If my wife should throw me out, I will pack my bags and head to the farang ghetto to my condo. Never spend more than you can comfortably afford to walk away from. If the worst should happen, I will have a roof over my head and will not miss any meals. Always have a plan "B".

[Destiny1990]

4 minutes ago, xylophone said:

"What you have described is actually just a bit on the side, unlike some countries where the corruption prevents anything from happening at all, in Thailand things continue to function".

 

I am obviously at fault because I can't fully describe how things work here and even if I could, I wouldn't want to put it in print for obvious reasons.

 

Corruption isn't "just a bit on the side" it is built into every aspect of governance and life here and the reason things work is because of that! Everyone needs things to "work" here so that they get their cut of the corruption.........that's why it works!!! It is built into the system and the system is made to benefit those who participate in corrupt practices and to all intents and purposes that's the majority.

 

"The need to educate" is a nice turn of phrase, but the reason why the education system is so dysfunctional at the lower level is because that's the way the powers that be need it to be, so that the system keeps on functioning with corruption built in.

 

It won't change, it can't change, it is endemic it is damn near genetic.

 

Now onto those 30+30+30 year leases............and would you believe just the other day I heard a UK farang property salesman here describing that very scenario to a prospective buyer. Seems like the country attracts those folk who operate best in a corrupt environment. Go figure.

 

I heard condo sale staff telling propect condo buyers that next year they high speed train would be connected  with Bangkok and it would stop near their project??.I guess just optimistic thingking their part.

[laochef]

29 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I presume it was just the house and not the land it was on.

Nope, it was the Chanote, aka Titledeed.

[davidst01]

On 3/25/2017 at 11:11 AM, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

Okay I will tell you why. 7 years ago we bought a house for B 4,5 million and spend a further B 1,5 m in extending it. So our total cost was B 6 m. We spend about B 20 000 per year on repair and maintenance. So our capital outlay plus maintenance cost was B 6 140 000.

 

If we rented a place the rent would have been B 40 000 pm. Over the 7 year period the rent would have been:  7 years x 12 months x B 40 000 = B 3 360 000. If we then invested the B 6,14 m we spend on the house our after tax return would have been B 156 000 per year or B 1 092 000 for 7 years (fixed investment at bank). Even if we sell the house at a breakeven amount of B 6,14 million we still have gained B 2 268 000 (B 3,36 m - B 1,092 m).

 

If we invested in the Thai stock exchange (as you suggested) it would be extremely risky but also impossible to beat the figures above. To breakeven with buying option you must have obtained a return of B 3,36 million on an investment of B 6,14 million. That would be a 55% after tax return on investment over the 7 years or an 8% average after tax return per year. Good luck with that I will choose my house everyday thanks.

So dont invest on the thai stock exchange but on Nasdaq. Technology stocks such as google, Fbook have gained 45% in the last 2 yrs alone and there are low transaction costs. You are subjected to market risk but rewards can be huge. 

[Jai Dee]

Several off-topic argumentative posts have been removed from this thread.

[Krenjai]

9 hours ago, asean said:

The company needs to be under Thai control regardless of share structure or voting preferences. 

• As already mentioned in post 223, all leases (except the 30 year lease) are by definition toilet paper, even if they are drawn up by respectable (thai) lawyers. They are simply not enforceable by law. Period!    
• Setting up a shell Thai Company with 'fake' Thai nominees to obtain a majority voting right is illegal  and considered circumventing the law. 

I was suggesting that people who enter into Leases with extension options should also become shareholders in the land owning company. Example: if a Developer starts a project he creates a 100% Thai company that owns the land of which he keeps 51%. The other 49% are distributed among the Lessees. This is better than a Lessee creating a shell Thai company with nominees (common practice till 2008) because that is now illegal.

 

If the voting right issue cannot be sorted as per your quote, it leaves in fact the majority with the 51% Thai. If they don't want to extend the lease I guess this is trouble for the owners. I do believe however the structure of farangs owning 49% in this company is more safe than not owning anything in the owning company from a legal standpoint.

 

I think I stick with my prediction that the Thai courts will be flooded with court cases in coming years & decades,  K.Tricky Dicky versus Farang about 30 year lease renewals. It will be interesting to see this unfold.

[Buckwheat Flour]

3 hours ago, laochef said:

Nope, it was the Chanote, aka Titledeed.

Hope someone responds to your query....Interesting story 

Best Regards

[overherebc]

4 hours ago, laochef said:

Nope, it was the Chanote, aka Titledeed.

Did it have a Khaosan Road stamp on it?

[Naam]

6 hours ago, laochef said:

Back in the '80s, I knew a guy from the UK. What he said, was that over 2 years he bought 2 houses, with land, neighbouring, i.e. 2 Chanotes. Both in the name of his FUTURE Father in Law (He was not officially married to his GF). Then he did get married, and his Father in Law gave him 1 House as a dowry. This was accepted at the Land Department and his name was put in the Chanote as the owner. The Father in Law was deemed wealthy enough, with 2 houses, 2 cars and a healthy bank account, that he could give away 1 house to his Son in Law. Notable is also that he (the farang) was the ONLY owner of the house, his, now, wife was not in the Chanote. (I did see his Chanote at that time)

Has anyone else heard, or know, if this is really do-able ?

no it's not doable!

[Destiny1990]

On 3/25/2017 at 5:05 PM, wealthychef said:

Ridiculous.  Your ownership of the condo or house you might buy exists only on paper.  I can buy your house or one like it with my "no real assets" any time I want.  

 

A property exist in real and is not the same thing as a paper asset such as stocks bonds are.

[bkkcanuck8]

3 hours ago, Krenjai said:

• As already mentioned in post 223, all leases (except the 30 year lease) are by definition toilet paper, even if they are drawn up by respectable (thai) lawyers. They are simply not enforceable by law. Period!    

Any contract made that violates the law is not worth the paper it is written on.  It is unenforceable and it would be null and void if taken to court.   You are basically accepting an unenforceable promissory note which the contra-party may or may not abide by -- most likely not.... and any inheritors of that promise (through sale or inheritance) definitely would not feel bound by the note.  

[wealthychef]

49 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

A property exist in real and is not the same thing as a paper asset such as stocks bonds are.

A stock is ownership in a company.  The company exists in reality just like a house or condo.  

[William C F Pierce]

On 24/03/2017 at 1:07 PM, TheSwede99 said:

There is already the possibility to lease the land for 30 years, increasing 20 years makes little difference.

There is a difference it is no further paper work at 30 years.

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, William C F Pierce said:

There is a difference it is no further paper work at 30 years.

It is a difference in legality.  You can lease for 50 years LEGALLY -- which for some people might be the difference between being kicked out in their later years (even with a "promise of extension") because the property is worth more to the owner for some other purpose than renewing your lease (which he would legally be able to do after the initial 30 years).  

[Naam]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

5 hours ago, Krenjai said:

• As already mentioned in post 223, all leases (except the 30 year lease) are by definition toilet paper, even if they are drawn up by respectable (thai) lawyers. They are simply not enforceable by law. Period!    

Any contract made that violates the law is not worth the paper it is written on.  It is unenforceable and it would be null and void if taken to court.   You are basically accepting an unenforceable promissory note which the contra-party may or may not abide by -- most likely not.... and any inheritors of that promise (through sale or inheritance) definitely would not feel bound by the note.

contracts of 30+30+30 or even 30+500+1000 do not violate any law. of course they are not enforceable but valid if the parties stick to the conditions.

[Naam]

9 hours ago, the guest said:

The law changes here like the weather, why would you put your trust in a country that has only contempt for it's foreign visitors?

that's the usual ignorant blah-blah without any supporting evidence! my first visit to Thailand was 44 years ago, spent uncountable holidays in Thailand with my wife and we are fulltime residents since more than 12 years and haven't noticed any contempt towards us.

[oldsailor35]

If the Thai govt were genuine, they would allow any farang who wants to live here permanently , the right to buy one piece of land big enough to build their house/home, and register it in their name.

 

[Destiny1990]

4 minutes ago, oldsailor35 said:

If the Thai govt were genuine, they would allow any farang who wants to live here permanently , the right to buy one piece of land big enough to build their house/home, and register it in their name.

 

Well or offer 75/99 land leases so we can still resell the house and land at some point to new buyer because with a 30 years lease only u stuck with it and so is the market.

[oldsailor35]

On 3/24/2017 at 6:39 PM, Hereinthailand said:

I dont get the foreigners buying up all the land idea if we could own land here, land-houses are much cheaper in my home country and has good water, electricity, internet etc, thats why I have no interest in buying land here. And I dont live in london or los angeles for all the people that will comment how much more expensive it is back home. Thailand was a reasonable cost of living 10 years ago when I first came here but now other than taxes Its much cheaper for me to live in my home country.

You seem not to understand that many Farang have Thai wives and chikdren and are settled here for the rest of their lives .

[oldsailor35]

On 3/24/2017 at 6:58 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

Can foreigners buy land in Vietnam?  No, they can't.  SO what exactly are you going on about?

Well try Australia where the Chinese are buying millions of square acres, massive Cattle and Cotton properties etc. The only good thing about it, is they cannot cart it away.