Govt floats long-term land leases for foreigners

[StevieAus]

55 minutes ago, hansnl said:

Old farts spending their own savings, spending their own pension, enjoying their life, you mean?

Where do you get the idea you have a right to get an inheritance?

You did not work for your parents money, they did.

Actually, during your early years they did already spend a lot of their money on you.

Did you pay that back?

 

Totally agree I worked hard for what I have none of it came free or from an inheritance 

[StevieAus]

16 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Get your point...myself though, I have some property in my name but I don't see it like  I own it, I see it like I have the use of it on a daily basis. When my time is up....someone else will have the use of it.

That will happen wherever you live unless you know a way of taking it with you !!

 

[timewilltell]

13 hours ago, whoareyou said:

Nonsense. Happened a thousand times. So should be easy for you to provide 20 links? Okay lol let's make it 10 LINKS should be plenty on TV.

Yep thought so LMAO!

 

I think you might be very surprised at the level of fraud, theft, intimidation and deceit used against foreigners and their business / property assets.  Leases are absolutely to be avoided.  The courts have more reticence with business assets it seems but Thai company ownership is a holocaust waiting to happen whenever the Thais decide to move the goalposts.  Just do NOT invest a penny here.

[timewilltell]

3 hours ago, simon43 said:

Although clearly not on the same scale as the problems that Colin Vard had, I was forced out of the 4th little hotel that I built in Phuket by a drug dealer and bent police who supported him.

 

I had a long lease on the land in my sole name, but that meant nothing 'on the ground'.  I still legally had the right to stay on the land that I leased, but with threats against my life, I choose to chuck it all in and relocate to Myanmar last year.

 

30 year lease? 50 year lease? 99 year lease?  It means absolutely nothing when the police are corrupt and foreigners are treated as second-class (third-class?) citizens.

And here is another person telling you like it really is.  It is sad people will just not listen to reality.  I guess it shatters their dream that the wrapping that Thailand presents really is real and is not hiding something very nasty indeed.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, hansnl said:

Old farts spending their own savings, spending their own pension, enjoying their life, you mean?

Where do you get the idea you have a right to get an inheritance?

You did not work for your parents money, they did.

Actually, during your early years they did already spend a lot of their money on you.

Did you pay that back?

 

God, I miss the good old days when people realized their chain was being jerked without an emoji to tell them it was.

[pattayadgw]

Vietnam introduced law where foreigners can buy land and house as of July 2017... not lease.... BUY!!

[impulse]

16 minutes ago, pattayadgw said:

Vietnam introduced law where foreigners can buy land and house as of July 2017... not lease.... BUY!!

 

Call me cynical, but I'd wait a few years before hopping on that opportunity with my retirement savings, just to make sure they don't pull a Zimbabwe and change those rules when the leadership changes.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

14 hours ago, moe666 said:

Land ownership comes up every couple of years here, and I always wonder why. Why not rent and put your extra capital in the Thai stock market a better return and no hassel about up keep and mowing lawns

Okay I will tell you why. 7 years ago we bought a house for B 4,5 million and spend a further B 1,5 m in extending it. So our total cost was B 6 m. We spend about B 20 000 per year on repair and maintenance. So our capital outlay plus maintenance cost was B 6 140 000.

 

If we rented a place the rent would have been B 40 000 pm. Over the 7 year period the rent would have been:  7 years x 12 months x B 40 000 = B 3 360 000. If we then invested the B 6,14 m we spend on the house our after tax return would have been B 156 000 per year or B 1 092 000 for 7 years (fixed investment at bank). Even if we sell the house at a breakeven amount of B 6,14 million we still have gained B 2 268 000 (B 3,36 m - B 1,092 m).

 

If we invested in the Thai stock exchange (as you suggested) it would be extremely risky but also impossible to beat the figures above. To breakeven with buying option you must have obtained a return of B 3,36 million on an investment of B 6,14 million. That would be a 55% after tax return on investment over the 7 years or an 8% average after tax return per year. Good luck with that I will choose my house everyday thanks.

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, vagabundo said:

There are many amazing condo buildings where you can find anything you wish and afford.

Not if your wish does not happen to be a box in the sky.... but a home with a garden.

[wealthychef]

15 hours ago, vagabundo said:

There are many amazing condo buildings where you can find anything you wish and afford. 

 Unless what you wish is not a condo of course.  :-) Maybe you want a house in the country.  Lots of people like the upcountry feel of Thailand and don't want a condo in a busy city with traffic and pollution.  

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, hansnl said:

Old farts spending their own savings, spending their own pension, enjoying their life, you mean?

Where do you get the idea you have a right to get an inheritance?

You did not work for your parents money, they did.

Actually, during your early years they did already spend a lot of their money on you.

Did you pay that back?

 

A very western mindset you have, and the very mindset that will one day see the west beaten by the east.

 

And what leads you to assume that everyone's wealth has been earned by them, some of our families have been handing on inheritance for hundreds of years, for one generation to stop that cycle and instead blow it all on themselves would be beyond their rights.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Shawn0000

[Destiny1990]

A more balanced ownership property law for foreigners means a healthier real estate market. than it will have much more movement,number of sales and selling prices going up.nowadays housing prices never going up after been bought from the developer.Big difference if a house gets sold 1 x in 30 years or 4 times in 30 years !tax revenue will multiply!!

Edited March 25, 2017 by Destiny1990

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, dotpoom said:

I feel sorry that you seem to have had many a bad experience over here and none of the fantastic ones that make life just great, including going home to a pad where you are surrounded with pics and stuff hanging on the wall of your loved ones and whatever....something you cannot do in a rented room

I have owned houses here and sold for a profit, though wouldn't do it again.

 

So I've lived in the same rented apartment for 5 years now, and I have pretty well free rein on what I do here, including hanging pictures on the wall, buying my own fridge, tv and wine cooler and installing new electrical socket outlets. The owner knows that I am a good steady tenant and doesn't want me to leave, so it's a win-win.

[Destiny1990]

11 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I have owned houses here and sold for a profit, though wouldn't do it again.

 

So I've lived in the same rented apartment for 5 years now, and I have pretty well free rein on what I do here, including hanging pictures on the wall, buying my own fridge, tv and wine cooler and installing new electrical socket outlets. The owner knows that I am a good steady tenant and doesn't want me to leave, so it's a win-win.

Winwin? Yes but u could have nearly owned the place with 5 years spend on rent.

[xylophone]

Just now, Destiny1990 said:

Winwin? Yes but u could have nearly owned the place with 5 years spend on rent.

Doubt it...........total rent has been 750k baht, with free water, internet and TV.

 

I did the sums and past a certain age it is simply not worth buying here AND anyway the feeling that I can up and leave in a few hours, leaving nothing of much value behind, should men in hats make life too difficult, is a great feeling.

[kannot]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

Although clearly not on the same scale as the problems that Colin Vard had, I was forced out of the 4th little hotel that I built in Phuket by a drug dealer and bent police who supported him.

 

I had a long lease on the land in my sole name, but that meant nothing 'on the ground'.  I still legally had the right to stay on the land that I leased, but with threats against my life, I choose to chuck it all in and relocate to Myanmar last year.

 

30 year lease? 50 year lease? 99 year lease?  It means absolutely nothing when the police are corrupt and foreigners are treated as second-class (third-class?) citizens.

What Ive done is buy a cheap piece of land (ok Wife) 800k baht for 15  rai nor sor sam gor, built two small houses 500k and 150-200k and thats  it, total  loss would be about 2  million if I had to leave. I did fancy building a bigger  house but with no kids there simply  wasnt the need in the end and at the back of my mind was always the "what if" question about long term ability to stay

[Gulfsailor]

6 hours ago, pizzachang said:

Lots of talk about "owning land".  You had better pay the property tax in the USA (except for a few enlightened states) or you quickly find out how "land ownership" is a nebulous thing.  This "tax-year" in my former home state ""land value" went up - an arbitrary decision by assessors that had little to do with free market land values.  You only own something that can't be taken away from you. That is a very short list, in this world.

So true. My brother has a house just north of SF. He boasts how it's now free from mortgage since he recently sold his company. However, the property tax on it is more than double my rent for a spacious villa on Samui. 

Ps. Unless a foreigner has permanent residency in Thailand, I am sure they will class foreigners' (leased) land as not their primary residence for future tax collection on land. Expect to pay 5% tax annually...

[keep it real]

Merely a "time bombed rental", it's NOT ownership! Only a fool can be fooled by such silly nonsense from the nonsensical.

 

baan prufe.

[Buckwheat Flour]

17 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

No, not the same at all. Not even close.

 

 

Come on, impulse was speaking rhetorically,  and surely you can discern his or her point.  You might not like impulse's suggestion that governments have ultimate control of personal property,  but the observation is certainly related to this conversation.   

[Destiny1990]

11 minutes ago, kannot said:

What Ive done is buy a cheap piece of land (ok Wife) 800k baht for 15  rai nor sor sam gor, built two small houses 500k and 150-200k and thats  it, total  loss would be about 2  million if I had to leave. I did fancy building a bigger  house but with no kids there simply  wasnt the need in the end and at the back of my mind was always the "what if" question about long term ability to stay

Well atleast u made your wife happy with your gift for her.

[Thaidream]

In the last 50 years , I have owned and sold 3 houses in Bangkok and always made a profit . My spouse was the actual owner as Foreigners are not allowed to own property no matter what you may believe. Leases and all the other smoke and mirrors do not convey ownership. However, one can inherit land/house as a foreigner but must sell it within 1 year after the death.

I never purchased any of the land/houses for speculation. I purchased to live in them and when circumstances changed that was the reason to sell and move on.  At the end I simply wanted to get away from the congestion and bad air of Bangkok and moved well away from the city in a nice quite area for way less than I could ever find in Bangkok.

I would never speculate on property in Thailand unless you have inside information on the area and its plans for the next 15-20 years.  That is very hard information get since it is only in Thai and only available through government officials. 

My experience tells me that if you are married to a Thai and want a house and land go ahead and buy through the wife. However, I have always considered this money a gift and never expect any return. I have been lucky but others have not.

However, if one is single -I would never purchase any property in Thailand and that includes land or Condo's- too many things can go wrong and there have been volumes written about it.

Frankly, during all the years I have been in Thailand and had stable marriages; raised families; contributed to the economy- the Thai government has never been able to develop a realistic Visa for those expats like us. I share the feelings that others express that a year by year extension is not going to entice anyone to invest in Thailand. In fact, when I really think about it, I am quite irritated that after so much time in Thailand I still have to report to immigration every 90 days; there is no long term Work Permit; there is no permanent extension of stay based upon life history with Thailand; and the goal posts can be changed and do change way too often and so much is based upon what Immigration Office you use and the attitude of what IO you see. There is permanent  residency but it is hard to get and expensive (you would need to be in Thailand for 50 consecutive years on PR as opposed to payment of one year extensions to break even)

The real problem is a bureaucracy that is over protective; xenophobic; and simply cannot be trusted to provide legal safeguards. Final Word:  If in doubt- always rent.

[little mary sunshine]

17 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Both Malaysia and Brunei?  I don't know anyone who has relocated to either, plenty to all the others where you also can't buy land though.

Two friends from Australia have chosen Malaysia because of

home ownership as well as Visa requirements.....beautiful,new

homes for approx.  (in Baht) 12M...  they are quite happy!!

[Wilso]

Or you could just marry a Thai and have dual citizen kids who can own land. That's what I did.

Sent from my ZTE T84 using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[Buckwheat Flour]

19 minutes ago, Paruk said:

Right you are. I dare to bet anybody a considerable amount of money that they won't end with a profit after a couple of years stock exchange gaming. Not here or anywhere else.

Assuming the value of your property holds up you are correct.  Markets provide plenty of examples of gains or losses in both equities and real-estate.  However, using debt to finance ownership of any asset risks a spectacular loss of capital.

 

Be careful when investing, and never take anything for granted. Sometimes the winners are the ones who loose the least. 

[xylophone]

7 hours ago, simon43 said:

30 year lease? 50 year lease? 99 year lease?  It means absolutely nothing when the police are corrupt and foreigners are treated as second-class (third-class?) citizens.

Yes, I agree and I think it's a point that many of the folks posting on here have overlooked, even those who have suggested that buying property gives a better return than X, Y, Z etc.

 

By and large when you are investing in markets these days you know the risks and if you choose to take them, then that's your prerogative. However when investing in Thailand you have that huge "unseen" risk and that is corruption in all its forms, whether it be from wives, relatives, police and any number of other avenues.

 

There have been a few cases highlighted on here, and Simon's has been one, and I thought they would never happen close to home (sorry about the pun), however a friend has had something very similar happen to him. He returned from overseas to stay in his house, which had been rented out previously, only to find that his lawyer had forged his signature, got a new chanote and had sold the house under the guise that it was his house to sell.

 

Well you would think it would be easy to rectify this situation, however it isn't/hasn't been and this case has dragged on for more than two years now because the lawyer had contacts in high places and no matter that my friend has hired two separate lawyers to help his case, nothing has happened, apart from him having to pay lawyers fees.

 

It is this sort of corruption that adds an added dimension to the word "risk" with regards to investing here, because once something like this happens, the chances of it being rectified in the favour of the rightful owner are very small indeed.

 

What I'm saying is, if you know the risks, then you can weigh them up, but if you don't know what can happen in a corrupt Thai society, then that's far too much of a burden/risk to carry, in my opinion.

[impulse]

13 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Yes, I agree and I think it's a point that many of the folks posting on here have overlooked, even those who have suggested that buying property gives a better return than X, Y, Z etc.

 

Bingo.  

 

The present value of 20 years added to a 30 year lease is virtually nil, especially given the vagaries of the legal system, visa requirements, and the odds of a future reversal by the next 5 governments or the next 5 coup leaders.  

 

(But I'll bet the locals just add 66% to their 30 year lease price- while rubbing their hands together in glee...)

[simon43]

 total  loss would be about 2  million if I had to leave.

 

For me, I had a cash loss of about $100,000 USD.  Having lived in Phuket for 15 years, and knowing the level of corruption and risk to life (2 of my employees had been murdered since 2005 and no one was ever arrested), I knew that my chances of getting my property and business back were about 0.001%.  I'd just be paying out to more corrupt and expensive lawyers and putting my own life in danger.

 

I'm in Myanmar now, working to get that $100k back.  It should only take me about 3 years in my enjoyable job :)

 

Life goes on...

 

 

[Destiny1990]

19 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Yes, I agree and I think it's a point that many of the folks posting on here have overlooked, even those who have suggested that buying property gives a better return than X, Y, Z etc.

 

By and large when you are investing in markets these days you know the risks and if you choose to take them, then that's your prerogative. However when investing in Thailand you have that huge "unseen" risk and that is corruption in all its forms, whether it be from wives, relatives, police and any number of other avenues.

 

There have been a few cases highlighted on here, and Simon's has been one, and I thought they would never happen close to home (sorry about the pun), however a friend has had something very similar happen to him. He returned from overseas to stay in his house, which had been rented out previously, only to find that his lawyer had forged his signature, got a new chanote and had sold the house under the guise that it was his house to sell.

 

Well you would think it would be easy to rectify this situation, however it isn't/hasn't been and this case has dragged on for more than two years now because the lawyer had contacts in high places and no matter that my friend has hired two separate lawyers to help his case, nothing has happened, apart from him having to pay lawyers fees.

 

It is this sort of corruption that adds an added dimension to the word "risk" with regards to investing here, because once something like this happens, the chances of it being rectified in the favour of the rightful owner are very small indeed.

 

What I'm saying is, if you know the risks, then you can weigh them up, but if you don't know what can happen in a corrupt Thai society, then that's far too much of a burden/risk to carry, in my opinion.

To make a law that need all persons involved in a sale or change of ownership of a company and or change in title deed mandatory have to show up in person.Also company owned houses probable need to be restructured.

[Thaidream]

As a word of caution and I believe verified by many long term Thailand expats- keep your hand on your wallet- the pages of Thai Visa are filled with stories of expats who thought it would not happen to them- and it did. If something sounds too good- it most likely is...and some people are too old to ever recover if it happens to them.  My admiration for Simon- who has not given up and has a real excellent chance to recover.

[Krenjai]

Since it has been common practice in Thailand, especially in Phuket and Samui, to offer a 30 year lease with renewable options as an 'alternative' to owning there is a lot of rubbish and inaccuracies out there. Let's look at what is offered nowadays:

 

• 30 Year Lease (the ONLY legitimate contract)
• 30+30 (how it all started to get Farangs to buy)
• 30+30+30 ( a second renewal is what you see most, Farangs don't like 60 years, but 90?)
• 30+30+30+30 (yes, it exists in Laguna Phuket)
• 30+unlimited renewals (yes, even this exists) 

Let me be clear, all contracts (except the 30 year lease) are by definition toilet paper, even if they are drawn up by respectable (thai) lawyers. They are simply not enforceable by law. Period! 

 

Now, if you bought a 30+30 or a 30+30+30 from a respectable company there is nothing to be worried about. I don't expect a company like Laguna to say after 30 years, take your house and get the hell of my land. LOL! 

 

However if you bought from Khun Tricky Dicky you may have a problem if he says 'no renew lease, no care what in contract'. Even if Khun Tricky Dicky dies,  his son Khun Tricky Dicky Jr. does not have to honor the 30+30 extension because it does not exist, it is wallpaper.

I might note that the people who bought land with a Thai Company with 'fake' Thai nominees and obtained a majority voting right are also in trouble. This practice, although it was widely offered you see less ans less because it is illegal circumventing the law. They could take away your house, they don't but.....

 

Prediction: the Thai courts will be flooded with court cases in coming years & decades,  K.Tricky Dicky versus Farang about 30 year lease renewals. It will be interesting to see this unfold.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Krenjai