TM 30 Confusion for Tourists

[devaram]

How does TM 30 report apply to tourists?

I came into Thailand from land border in Malaysia 30 day stamp  and traveled for almost two weeks before arriving in Chiangmai and now people are telling me that I wont get an extension in Chiangmai unless a TM30 was filed within 24 hours of arrival in Thailand.

I heard that this only applies to Chiangmai ? 

It makes no sense at all for tourists please clarify?

 

 

 

[jeab1980]

Have you been staying in hotels? Are you in a hotel in Chiang Mai? If yes no problem. If no tell the house master whoever it is to put in a tm 30 dated tm no problem.

[devaram]

I was in hotels until a few days ago and now a guest house run by a friend and I dont think they even know about this.

So they can do it online without going to immigration?

And they can date it for when I arrived in Thailand?

I have to bring some kind of proof with me when I go for the extention?

[JackThompson]

You were in Hotels before you arrived there, so that time is not at issue.

They can do it Online if they are registered with Immigration and the online-system is up and running.
It should be dated within 24 hours of when they register you, or you/they could have to pay a fine.

If you go to the office with your landlord to register, you will get a slip for your passport.   Some have suggested getting a screen-print if it is done online, though one would think the online-registration would be sufficient, provided you come to immigration with a receipt-of-payment for the guesthouse that matches what they have in their computer-system (I'd get a printout, if possible, for CYA).

[jeab1980]

Just tell your mate to go to immigration with you and tell them you arrived late today. If your mate runs a guest house would have thought he should have known about it. But no drama as i said you only srrived there late today!

[YetAnother]

8 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

If no tell the house master whoever it is to put in a tm 30 dated tm no problem.

i shared this practice/requirement with an intelligent thai friend and he was breathlessly shocked; he sure didnt appreciate any prospective fine

[devaram]

This is bullshit one more reason to not come back here anymore

[brewsterbudgen]

This is bullshit one more reason to not come back here anymore

Why? It's the responsibility of the hotel not the tourist and always has been.

[devaram]

The point is Im a tourist why should I have to educate my landlord how to be legal Really!

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, devaram said:

I came into Thailand from land border in Malaysia 30 day stamp  and traveled for almost two weeks before arriving in Chiangmai and now people are telling me that I wont get an extension in Chiangmai unless a TM30 was filed within 24 hours of arrival in Thailand.

It is within 24 hours of arrival at the residence not entering the country.

If the TM30 shows you arrived at the residence within 24 hours there will be no fine. 

[steven100]

I really think the whole Thailand visa system needs a complete overhaul to make it simpler but still affective.

I am fine with my visa,  but for genuine tourists, non O, non AO, retirement, and others it just appears so complicated.  Surely it can be easier and simpler to understand ...

I guess I'm just dreaming ....  

[jeab1980]

Its not hard to understand if your a tourist you will genrally stay in hotels so you wont have to educate landlords or do anything in fact as a tourist on holiday chances are you will never have to know about a tm30. The only time you will need to know is if you go to certain immigration offices to extend your visa/exempt.And then if youve been staying in hotels no problem. The OP has been staying in hotels untill latest place which is a guest house for some reason the Landlord doesnt know about the TM 30 requirements!. Easily sorted go with landlord today to immigration he will declare you staying there from yesterday afternoon. Then the landlord can ask about the system and what he has to do. So in future there will be no problems. Its no drama nothing to get flustered about.

[bbi1]

1 hour ago, devaram said:

The point is Im a tourist why should I have to educate my landlord how to be legal Really!

Who said you needed to educate your landlord? If your "friend" who's running the guesthouse doesn't know about it, it's their fault. They SHOULD know about it as it's their business to know the rules & regulations. Anyway, why are you assuming they don't know it, did you ask them?

[bbi1]

24 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

Its not hard to understand if your a tourist you will genrally stay in hotels so you wont have to educate landlords or do anything in fact as a tourist on holiday chances are you will never have to know about a tm30. The only time you will need to know is if you go to certain immigration offices to extend your visa/exempt.And then if youve been staying in hotels no problem. The OP has been staying in hotels untill latest place which is a guest house for some reason the Landlord doesnt know about the TM 30 requirements!. Easily sorted go with landlord today to immigration he will declare you staying there from yesterday afternoon. Then the landlord can ask about the system and what he has to do. So in future there will be no problems. Its no drama nothing to get flustered about.

I wonder, all these tourists that use AirBnB and stay in condos, wondering if their landlords even bother doing a report on them :)

[bbi1]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

It is within 24 hours of arrival at the residence not entering the country.

If the TM30 shows you arrived at the residence within 24 hours there will be no fine. 

What happens if you have a long-term condo you lease and fly in and out of Thailand every few months. Does your landlord need to keep doing that reporting form every time you arrive at the exact same residence or only once the very first time you entered Thailand?

 

And what about if you decide to holiday somewhere in Thailand for a few days and stay at a hotel, they do the form at that time. Then you return to your condo. Does your landlord need to do another form yet again? If so, how would the landlord even know that you weren't at the condo for a continuous period and took a few days away at a hotel somewhere else?

Edited May 28, 2017 by bbi1

[devaram]

Ok thanks I understand

[devaram]

I wonder, all these tourists that use AirBnB and stay in condos, wondering if their landlords even bother doing a report on them :)

Well that is the problem because apparently allot of them dont and the hotels are not bothering also as its too much trouble

[devaram]

Who said you needed to educate your landlord? If your "friend" who's running the guesthouse doesn't know about it, it's their fault. They SHOULD know about it as it's their business to know the rules & regulations. Anyway, why are you assuming they don't know it, did you ask them?

Yes you are correct she knows about it and will go to immigration I just didnt get a chance to see her until this morning but if she has to go to immigration it is because the government is inept and not capable of maintaining a simple website to log these reports why should every landlord and apartment manager in
Thailand (or is it only chiangmai?) Have to make a trip to immigration everytime someone checks in?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

What happens if you have a long-term condo you lease and fly in and out of Thailand every few months. Does your landlord need to keep doing that reporting form every time you arrive at the exact same residence or only once the very first time you entered Thailand?

 

And what about if you decide to holiday somewhere in Thailand for a few days and stay at a hotel, they do the form at that time. Then you return to your condo. Does your landlord need to do another form yet again? If so, how would the landlord even know that you weren't at the condo for a continuous period and took a few days away at a hotel somewhere else?

As a long-term condo-lease, you are the "housemaster" and are responsible - vs a guesthouse or hotel. 

What you must do depends on which Immigration Office covers your area, their policies, and whether or not you ever need an extension or other service from them.   If you never need to go there (example:a Multi-Entry Non-O Visa case), then no problem - this is not being enforced at border-crossings.  If you do need their services, then you might, depending on what that particular office requires.  

 

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

Who said you needed to educate your landlord?

If you need an extension from the immigration-office, it could cause problems if they haven't reported you, even though it "should" be "their responsibility."  One possible reason is that, in many offices, they have "merged" the TM-30 and TM-28 requirements into one process, and the TM-28 is "your" responsibility.  See the handouts with the info from Jomtien, for example - which have the wording from both laws mixed together.  This seems to be how they are justifying fining the visitor rather than landlord, in some cases.

Edited May 28, 2017 by JackThompson

[jeab1980]

People are getting confused and confusing other people this is about tourist on holiday there is absoulutley no requirement what so ever for a tourist to submit a tm 28 perminent change of address form.to mention it on a thread about tourists and hotels or house master reporting them is only confusing matters.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

People are getting confused and confusing other people this is about tourist on holiday there is absoulutley no requirement what so ever for a tourist to submit a tm 28 perminent change of address form.to mention it on a thread about tourists and hotels or house master reporting them is only confusing matters.

If staying at hotels and guesthouses who register tm-30s - no problem.  If staying where the mgmt aren't filing tm-30s, it *becomes* the tourist's problem if they ever need an extension (say 30-days on a TR visa or Visa-Exempt entry).  At some offices, they will get a handout (as I have) explaining what we "are supposed to do" which will include tm-30 and tm-28 info mixed together as if it was "one thing."  I am not saying it is "the way it should be," but they won't get that extension without doing whatever that office requires.

[BritTim]

I always think for a tourist applying for an extension where a TM 30 is required, the easiest solution is just checking into a cheap hotel for a night, and applying for the extension the next morning. The immigration office will have no idea what you have been doing for the earlier part of your stay. It is perfectly reasonable from their point of view that you have been traveling and just arrived in their area.

[bbi1]

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

As a long-term condo-lease, you are the "housemaster" and are responsible - vs a guesthouse or hotel. 

What you must do depends on which Immigration Office covers your area, their policies, and whether or not you ever need an extension or other service from them.   If you never need to go there (example:a Multi-Entry Non-O Visa case), then no problem - this is not being enforced at border-crossings.  If you do need their services, then you might, depending on what that particular office requires.  

I always thought it's the landlord's responsibility to inform immigration. You sign a lease with the landlord, it could be 6 months or it could be longer or it could be renewed on a yearly basis for many years. Why would a guesthouse owner or hotel owner be responsible but not the landlord of a condo/house/townhouse? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

Anyway, isn't putting your address on your Arrival Card when entering the country notifying them of your address?

 

Well, I've gone to immigration a number of times to extend 30 days on the METV and never had any issues & as a tenant, I've never filled in that form, just only the Arrival Card address. Always presumed the landlord has already done it ages ago as I've had no issues whatsoever.

Edited May 28, 2017 by bbi1

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

I always thought it's the landlord's responsibility to inform immigration. You sign a lease with the landlord, it could be 6 months or it could be longer or it could be renewed on a yearly basis for many years. Why would a guesthouse owner or hotel owner be responsible but not the landlord of a condo/house/townhouse? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

Anyway, isn't putting your address on your Arrival Card when entering the country notifying them of your address?

 

Well, I've gone to immigration a number of times to extend 30 days on the METV and never had any issues & as a tenant, I've never filled in that form, just only the Arrival Card address. Always presumed the landlord has already done it ages ago as I've had no issues whatsoever.

If you are using Chang Watanna in Bangkok, none of this applies.  Maybe some other offices, too.

The landlord/condo/hotel/guesthouse confusion is to do with what is legally called the "house-master" in those contexts - in addition to the way some offices mix the tm-30 and tm-28 requirements together as regards enforcement.  Someone posted the Jomtien one awhile back; it is literally "cut and paste" from both laws mixed together as if it was one thing. 

 

I hear where you are coming from regarding, "doesn't make sense" and the TM-6 should be enough.  If I had it my way ...  but...

[balo]

This seems to be a Chiang Mai related problem . As a tourist don't worry , it's better down here in the south .  The worst thing that could happen is a fine at immigration but that would be very rare, 

 

 

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post, about the TM.28. Please limit discussion in this topic to the TM.30, as the TM.28 is an entirely different requirement.

[elviajero]

On 5/28/2017 at 4:53 AM, JackThompson said:

As a long-term condo-lease, you are the "housemaster" and are responsible - vs a guesthouse or hotel.  

They are not the 'house-master'. Only the person named in the blue house registration book as the 'house-master' is the house-master. A foreigner renting a condo could be considered the 'possessor' of the property, in which case, they would be equally responsible with the owner of the property, to make the TM.30 report.

[elviajero]

On 5/27/2017 at 3:43 PM, devaram said:

How does TM 30 report apply to tourists?

I came into Thailand from land border in Malaysia 30 day stamp  and traveled for almost two weeks before arriving in Chiangmai and now people are telling me that I wont get an extension in Chiangmai unless a TM30 was filed within 24 hours of arrival in Thailand.

I heard that this only applies to Chiangmai ? 

It makes no sense at all for tourists please clarify?

Someone is supposed to inform immigration that you are staying at their property. In the past most foreigners stayed in hotels and guest-houses who were supposed to make the report. Immigration, especially after the increased security fears, have been clamping down on making sure hotels make the report. Most foreigners didn't know reports were being made.

 

These days more and more foreigners stay in private accommodation, so some offices are also clamping down on the law and insisting that the owner makes the report whenever the foreigner asks for an extension of stay. It's a form of proof of address.

 

The laws are 37 years old and enforced differently at the immigration offices across the country. Offices might insist on a TM.30 being completed before they issue an extension, but I doubt any would decline an extension if the TM.30 wasn't filed within 24 hours of arriving in the country. The rule is that a TM.30 is submitted with 24 hours of arriving at the address, but I don't think that 24 hours is strictly enforced anywhere. They will go by the date given on the TM.30 as they have no way of knowing the actual date you arrived at the property.

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

They are not the 'house-master'. Only the person named in the blue house registration book as the 'house-master' is the house-master. A foreigner renting a condo could be considered the 'possessor' of the property, in which case, they would be equally responsible with the owner of the property, to make the TM.30 report.

 

 

For compliance with the Immigration Act, wherever the house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) is mentioned it is the definition of house-master in section 4 of the Act that counts.

 

"House-master" is mentioned twice in the Act: once in section 4, the other time in section 38.

 

With regard to a leased residence, section 4 defines the house-master as the chief possessor of the residence in his capacity as the tenant.

 

Section 38 says that the house-master, owner or possessor of the residence must submit the notification of the arrival of a foreigner at the residence, ie the form TM.30. Based on the definition in section 4, house-master and possessor are synonymous and most immigration offices feel free to accept the TM.30 either from the tenant who is the house-master because he is the possessor or from the owner even though he is not the possessor and therefore not the house-master as defined in the Immigration Act for the purpose of implementation of this Act. If neither of them submits the form within the specified period of 24 hours from the foreigner's arrival, some immigration offices also feel free to fine both the tenant and the owner or to collect the total of both fines from the tenant.

[Dipterocarp]

On 5/28/2017 at 8:12 PM, BritTim said:

I always think for a tourist applying for an extension where a TM 30 is required, the easiest solution is just checking into a cheap hotel for a night, and applying for the extension the next morning. The immigration office will have no idea what you have been doing for the earlier part of your stay. It is perfectly reasonable from their point of view that you have been traveling and just arrived in their area.

That is a good idea but it has been reported in CM many many hotels do not even have licenses and guesthouses are also operating illegally. Surely many required notifications are not lodged .

Now a visa exempt guy rocks to CM Imm up for a 30 day extension, whose problem is it now? I would just show them the dated hotel receipt and suggest it is the Hotels problem but if Imm does not budge is the tourist able get the illegal guesthouse operator down there immediately?  And potentially expose the operator to huge fines and sanctions? Or just pay the standard 1600 Baht and be on his way? The TM 30 has been a "nice little earner" for CM immigration.