Death toll in London tower fire rises to 30, figure expected to rise

[snoop1130]

Death toll in London tower fire rises to 30, figure expected to rise

 

Firefighters use a hydraulic lift to inspect the Grenfell Tower block that was destroyed by fire, in north Kensington, West London, Britain June 16, 2017. REUTERS/Hannah McKay

 

LONDON (Reuters) - The death toll from the London tower block fire has risen to at least 30 and police are considering whether criminal offences had been committed, a senior police officer said on Friday.

 

"We know that at least 30 people have died as a result of this fire," said Commander Stuart Cundy, adding that the figure was expected to rise.

 

He added that 24 people were still in hospital and 12 were receiving critical care.

 

"The investigation will look in into what criminal offences may have been committed," Cundy said.

 

(Reporting Costas Pitas and Michael Holden; editing by Guy Faulconbridge)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-6-16

[Basil B]

Now reported there are up to 76 persons unaccounted...

 

 

[nasanews]

It was deliberate according to a resident who saw maintenance three months earlier his name is Mark Thomas minute  1:52

 

[Here It Is]

42 minutes ago, nasanews said:

It was deliberate according to a resident who saw maintenance three months earlier his name is Mark Thomas minute  1:52

 

I'm not buying Mr Thomas' exposé.  Just doesn't add up whatsoever.  In fact it's just complete and utter bull.

[nasanews]

1 hour ago, Here It Is said:

I'm not buying Mr Thomas' exposé.  Just doesn't add up whatsoever.  In fact it's just complete and utter bull.

So who am I suppose to believe...you!  or Mr. Thomas who is a resident and an eye witness of what was going on in that building.

[Here It Is]

13 minutes ago, nasanews said:

So who am I suppose to believe...you!  or Mr. Thomas who is a resident and an eye witness of what was going on in that building.

I never mentioned you in my reply.  My reply was based solely on what I saw of Mr Thomas' exposé and I don't believe a word of it.

 

It's your prerogative to believe what you wish.

[pegman]

1 hour ago, Here It Is said:

I'm not buying Mr Thomas' exposé.  Just doesn't add up whatsoever.  In fact it's just complete and utter bull.

Surely building material such as this cladding had to have received product safety testing by some regulatory body in the world. How on earth was it approved for use?  It went up in flames like pine needles. 

[Here It Is]

11 minutes ago, pegman said:

Surely building material such as this cladding had to have received product safety testing by some regulatory body in the world. How on earth was it approved for use?  It went up in flames like pine needles. 

That's, hopefully, what the UK-based investigation will ascertain.

 

Apparently, the mass of this particular product is banned in the US.  

[Credo]

A lot of times how a product reacts in a testing situation and how it behaves in a real life situation are not the same.   It may be able to withstand a high level of heat without burning, but once it crosses that threshold all bets are off.   

 

Sadly this may be a situation where tests didn't demonstrate the reality of a real situation.   

[gk10002000]

so that lady fire fighter said it was unprecedented.  But by all accounts there was no water sprinkler system, few if any smoke alarms in all the public areas, stairwells, etc.   So is that the allowed building code standard there? If so, her statement just shows she is ignorant of the dangers of fires in large tall buildings.

 

  I am amazed the structure is still standing. 

[Get Real]

Just a very big tradgedy. Let´s hope it was an accident, and that nobody deliberatly started the fire.

[HauptmannUK]

A web search reveals that the insulating material in the panels is made by Saint-Gobain. Turns out that its PIR (polyisocyanurate) and not polyurethane, as was reported in the press. PIR is somewhat fire-retardant at lower temps, but will go off like a Roman candle at higher temps. It also gives off hydrogen cyanide, which is obviously highly toxic...

I am very sure that the Building Research Establishment has tested this material.

[superal]

8 hours ago, pegman said:

Surely building material such as this cladding had to have received product safety testing by some regulatory body in the world. How on earth was it approved for use?  It went up in flames like pine needles. 

That is the main question . It must have been endorsed by several approval authorities and gained a fire retardant certificate . I am not sure on the fact that the Fire Brigade has to inspect the building for safety compliance prior to resident occupation . There must be some people involved in the tower refurb who are shaking in their boots as the criminal investigation begins . I doubt if the survivors could  return to live in a tower block again . Absolute nightmare for all concerned . Now I see that there is much anger spreading and much is aimed at T.May for her non attendance with the survivors at the temporary accommodation venues , unlike JC 

[sawadee1947]

I see that safety standards are not very high in UK. Cladding like that are not allowed in other EU countries. And also there has to be a separate lift for emergency/fire brigade only. Also emergency stairs. This in all buildings with more than 20 floors, because the ladder/fire brigade can only reach up 20th floor.

So it's not surprising what happened unfortunately.

[HauptmannUK]

Diagrams of the installation show the cladding spaced away from the wall, giving an air gap. Hot air rises and so you create a chimney effect. Once a few panel were burning you'd have a 'blast furnace' going..

 

[evadgib]

Support for victims of the Grenfell Tower disaster

 

Statement on charitable giving: Grenfell Tower Fire

[HauptmannUK]

2 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

I see that safety standards are not very high in UK. Cladding like that are not allowed in other EU countries. And also there has to be a separate lift for emergency/fire brigade only. Also emergency stairs. This in all buildings with more than 20 floors, because the ladder/fire brigade can only reach up 20th floor.

So it's not surprising what happened unfortunately.

This is true. Unfortunately the UK is generally averse to 'regulation'.  We like the word 'deregulation' - which sounds a lot better than 'removal of standards'.

[pegman]

5 hours ago, Credo said:

A lot of times how a product reacts in a testing situation and how it behaves in a real life situation are not the same.   It may be able to withstand a high level of heat without burning, but once it crosses that threshold all bets are off.   

 

Sadly this may be a situation where tests didn't demonstrate the reality of a real situation.   

SkyNews tested the material and it ignited at 700 degrees in less than a minute. That would be a much lower temp than the building fire.

[superal]

15 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

I see that safety standards are not very high in UK. Cladding like that are not allowed in other EU countries. And also there has to be a separate lift for emergency/fire brigade only. Also emergency stairs. This in all buildings with more than 20 floors, because the ladder/fire brigade can only reach up 20th floor.

So it's not surprising what happened unfortunately.

I have to disagree with you as the UK safety standards are high throughout the building and construction industries . It is this that makes the whole event so difficult to understand . You will have heard that a criminal investigation is about to begin , such is the seriousness of the tragedy . In the UK , health & safety at work are paramount even at the cost of lower production and likewise for materials used which makes this disaster unbelievable to many . However I can understand your comments as that may well be an assumption reached by many outside of the UK .

[evadgib]

29 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

I see that safety standards are not very high in UK.

I suspect the standards are fine but it remains to be seen as to whether or not the refurb was up to standard and used the right materials...

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by evadgib

[peterb17]

I think this will bring down the Conservative Goverment - it's a classic deprived / minorities/ asylum seekers / class war. . 

 

The local area or borough as we call it in the UK has the most deprived area and the most stunningly wealthy . I have no problem with wealth- from hard work , intelligence and enterprises- as long as the success and wealth is spread amongst those working for you- just how many Porsches do you need? 

 

In the UK we have a hard hitting free press- they are reporting that the contracts were given to the lowest tender- the work carried out was substandard and cut corners- this all from the richest borough. I hope the companies who made a huge profit- will be taken to account- Corporate Manslaughter ( sadly their kids won't be going to Harrow next year) 

 

This will  spark  off a class war ( maybe also question the insane amount we give away to countries such as Pakistan in foreign aid) 

 

As usual Her Majesty has shone through - unlike May- who on earth advises her? 

 

 

[sawadee1947]

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

I suspect the standards are fine but it remains to be seen as to whether or not the refurb was up to standard and used the right materials...

 

that is only one point, but the emergency stairs or emergency lift for the fire brigade. Wasn't there and is not there in all blocks like that which I know in London. Maybe there is a screening now and improvements (which I doubt)

[pegman]

14 hours ago, peterb17 said:

I think this will bring down the Conservative Goverment - it's a classic deprived / minorities/ asylum seekers / class war. . 

 

The local area or borough as we call it in the UK has the most deprived area and the most stunningly wealthy . I have no problem with wealth- from hard work , intelligence and enterprises- as long as the success and wealth is spread amongst those working for you- just how many Porsches do you need? 

 

In the UK we have a hard hitting free press- they are reporting that the contracts were given to the lowest tender- the work carried out was substandard and cut corners- this all from the richest borough. I hope the companies who made a huge profit- will be taken to account- Corporate Manslaughter ( sadly their kids won't be going to Harrow next year) 

 

This will  spark  off a class war ( maybe also question the insane amount we give away to countries such as Pakistan in foreign aid) 

 

As usual Her Majesty has shone through - unlike May- who on earth advises her? 

 

 

When I person reaches the P.M. office they should have some sense themselves.

[pegman]

18 hours ago, superal said:

I have to disagree with you as the UK safety standards are high throughout the building and construction industries . It is this that makes the whole event so difficult to understand . You will have heard that a criminal investigation is about to begin , such is the seriousness of the tragedy . In the UK , health & safety at work are paramount even at the cost of lower production and likewise for materials used which makes this disaster unbelievable to many . However I can understand your comments as that may well be an assumption reached by many outside of the UK .

Are you an expert or is this just your general feelings about it? Little wonder these things are allowed to happen. Maybe you read in the Sun or the Mail that the UK has the highest standards and that is good enough for you.  That cladding is outlawed in other countries above a certain heighth. The Euro distributor's own broucher states it is not for use over 10 meters. There was no alarm. People had to be woken by neighbors. How on earth can these be reasonable standards. 

[rooster59]

London police say 58 people assumed dead in tower block blaze

 

The burnt out shell of the Grenfell apartment tower block is seen in North Kensington, London, Britain, June 17, 2017. REUTERS/Hannah McKay

 

LONDON (Reuters) - British police said that 58 people were now assumed to have died in this week's blaze at a London tower block.

 

"Sadly at this time, there are 58 people who we have been told were in Grenfell Tower on the night that are missing and therefore sadly I have to assume that they are dead," Commander Stuart Cundy told reporters, adding that the figure could change.

 

Police had previously put the death toll at 30. Cundy said the figure of 58 included that toll given earlier.

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-06-18

[simple1]

15 hours ago, peterb17 said:

<snip> maybe also question the insane amount we give away to countries

 

The Council had enough cash reserves for funding building maintenance, but apparently failed to do so in an appropriate manner; nothing to do with foreign aid spend which is an unrelated matter.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-royal-borough-kensington-chelsea-council-stockpiled-274m-despite-warnings-residents-a7795411.html

Edited June 17, 2017 by simple1

[superal]

7 minutes ago, pegman said:

Are you an expert or is this just your general feelings about it? Little wonder these things are allowed to happen. Maybe you read in the Sun or the Mail that the UK has the highest standards and that is good enough for you.  That cladding is outlawed in other countries above a certain heighth. The Euro distributor's own broucher states it is not for use over 10 meters. There was no alarm. People had to be woken by neighbors. How on earth can these be reasonable standards. 

No expert by a long way but aware of safety standards and non compliance implications which as I said before makes this disaster all the more upsetting . I worked mostly in the petrochem industry which has high safety practises and cultures . I possess an IOSH cert ,

Institution of Occupational Safety and Health Managing Safety that is designed for supervision and management to oversee / promote safety at work . There is no getting away from it , there are major questions to be asked and answered by a criminal investigation that will take place sooner rather than later and possibly to be televised . I am not trying to defend h&s on the tower refurb as it is clearly catastrophic , however generally the UK has good h&s standards with UK NEBOSH accredited safety officers in demand globally .   

                       I do not understand your reference to the Sun & Mail . Would you care to expand on that ?

[Enoon]

16 minutes ago, superal said:

No expert by a long way but aware of safety standards and non compliance implications which as I said before makes this disaster all the more upsetting . I worked mostly in the petrochem industry which has high safety practises and cultures . I possess an IOSH cert ,

Institution of Occupational Safety and Health Managing Safety that is designed for supervision and management to oversee / promote safety at work . There is no getting away from it , there are major questions to be asked and answered by a criminal investigation that will take place sooner rather than later and possibly to be televised . I am not trying to defend h&s on the tower refurb as it is clearly catastrophic , however generally the UK has good h&s standards with UK NEBOSH accredited safety officers in demand globally .   

                       I do not understand your reference to the Sun & Mail . Would you care to expand on that ?

 

Allow me.

 

The Sun and Mail say that all, everything and everyone "foreign" is rubbish, and that it is self evident that "British is Best".

 

Their "readers" (all of whom fit into one or more of these categories: brutal, ignorant, geriatric and xenophobic) are the people who voted for Britain to leave the EU.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Enoon

[teddog]

45 minutes ago, pegman said:

Are you an expert or is this just your general feelings about it? Little wonder these things are allowed to happen. Maybe you read in the Sun or the Mail that the UK has the highest standards and that is good enough for you.  That cladding is outlawed in other countries above a certain heighth. The Euro distributor's own broucher states it is not for use over 10 meters. There was no alarm. People had to be woken by neighbors. How on earth can these be reasonable standards. 

 

At the time the cladding was installed it was lawful, obviously view changed through different experiences, however, the tenants of  other buildings similar to this would have made ingress  for firefighters difficult through their behaviour

   Also rapid deportations from UK for asylum seekers would have excluded a fair few from this fire

[Grouse]

http://m.bdonline.co.uk/5088261.article?mobilesite=enabled

 

All you wanted to know about cladding.