Getting a Thai Taxpayer Identification Number - Downside?

[Tanoshi]

48 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

Yes, you can file a Thai tax return if you have no income.

For what purpose would you file a tax return if you have no income?

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

For what purpose would you file a tax return if you have no income?

 

For the purpose of obtaining a document of having no declared income in the jurisdiction of residence. The question came up in this post:

P.S. Why somebody living in Thailand might need a document to show that he has no income in Thailand is really off topic here and and I suggest that if you want to familiarise yourself with this subject more profoundly, with regard to the double taxation agreement between the USA and Thailand, you start a new topic in the Home Country Forum. 

[TerraplaneGuy]

Maestro, thanks for keeping this thread on topic.

 

Jayboy:  I take your point that some foreign income is taxable when brought into Thailand but that is true whether or not you get an ID number.   As you suggest, the practical question is, would getting an ID number create a risk that the Thai Revenue Dept. might scrutinize you (even if you don't file a tax return).  So far in this thread we've only seen one post, by Briggsy, where someone was called in for an interview as a result of having an ID number.  But in his case he had filed a return and claimed a tax refund and he indicated that was why they scrutinized him.  

 

So the question remains: has anyone - who has not filed a tax return -  had any scrutiny from Revenue simply because they had a tax ID number?

[TerraplaneGuy]

On 6/25/2017 at 11:11 AM, TerraplaneGuy said:

 

So the question remains: has anyone - who has not filed a tax return -  had any scrutiny from Revenue simply because they had a tax ID number?

Just to clarify:  I'm not (and I don't think anyone who has posted is) in any way suggesting avoiding paying tax that is required by law.  When I mention scrutiny by the Revenue Department I'm thinking of inquiries, reporting obligations, red tape etc. that will just be an inconvenience for those of us who don't actually have any taxable income in Thailand and therefore don't intend to file returns.  If getting a tax ID has triggered this kind of red tape, that's the sort of "downside" I'd like to hear about.

[higg1279]

TerraplaneGuy and all, Good afternoon! I'm new to the Thai Visa Forum, but not to Thailand. As this topic is of interest to most people now, myself included, I wanted to revisit this subject to ascertain if you or anyone have found a downside to obtaining a 'TIN', if they don't file a Tax Return and it was simply to appease new worldwide Govt Legislation, which includes having offshore Banks Accts, requesting a TIN now.

 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

21 minutes ago, higg1279 said:

TerraplaneGuy and all, Good afternoon! I'm new to the Thai Visa Forum, but not to Thailand. As this topic is of interest to most people now, myself included, I wanted to revisit this subject to ascertain if you or anyone have found a downside to obtaining a 'TIN', if they don't file a Tax Return and it was simply to appease new worldwide Govt Legislation, which includes having offshore Banks Accts, requesting a TIN now.

 

 

 

 

It depends on individuals circumstances and whether apply for a 'TIN' is by necessity or choice.

 

I have a Fixed term deposit account, the interest of which is taxed at 15% as it's regarded as income obtained from within Thailand.

The tax paid however is below the allowable personal tax allowance.

Therefore I am legally entitled to reclaim such tax deducted, obviously I need a 'TIN' in order to achieve that.

In this situation obtaining a 'TIN' works to my advantage. There is no downside.

Reclaiming tax deducted from the previous years interest, is quick and painless, taking 30 minutes once a year.

[JimGant]

I hope for the OP he has resolved the issue in his own mind, what with no real negative reports on having a Thai TIN. Actually, it's a no-brainer: You want the tax treaty to reduce withholding at source on US income from 30% to 15%, so you need to file a W-8BEN, but that now requires a TIN from your treaty country (Thailand, in this scenario). Maybe, tho', with a Thai TIN, you'll now get annual tax filing forms in the mail from the Thai Revenue folks. Just ignore, or maybe file with a note saying you have no income subject to Thai taxation. Thus, the cost of getting your US withholding tax reduced to 15% may be a slight inconvenience (but certainly no midnight knocks on the door from revenuers).

 

No, you need that W-8BEN, and the 15% savings. Otherwise, you'll have to file a 1040NR to try and re-coup that 15% -- and once again a Thai TIN will be needed for your explanation.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 6/23/2017 at 3:50 PM, partington said:

I went to a tax office in BKK  near Asoke six months or so ago to get a tax number.

 

You talking about the revenue office midway down Suk Soi 11, or the bigger revenue office on Asoke Road midway between Sukhumvit and Petchaburi roads?

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:16 AM, Briggsy said:

 

1. The tax office may call you in for an interview, particularly if you are of working age, have a tax number in Thailand and not paying income tax. This is to ascertain your situation and find out what you are living off. This is a waste of time, travel costs, etc. The Revenue may accuse you of working illegally with no evidence whatsoever. This is stressful. Happened to me.

 

 

That's certainly a bummer. And it's the kind of thing that makes me, as someone who has no meaningful income in Thailand (a few baht of bank interest aside), hesitant about putting myself into their tax system unless there's some worthwhile reason to do so.

 

I don't rely on bank deposits for my retirement extensions, and I do my best to keep any meaningful sums out of the Thai banking system.

 

[JimGant]

OP, yeah the new W8BEN does ask for your foreign TIN. But it isn't an absolute. Read the instructions, quoted in part, below:

 

"If you are providing this form to document a financial account described above but you do not enter a TIN on line 6, and you are not a resident of a U.S. possession, you must provide the withholding agent with an
explanation for why you have not been issued a TIN. For this purpose, an explanation is a statement that you are not legally required to obtain a TIN in your jurisdiction of tax residence. The explanation may be written on line 6, in the margins of the form, or on a separate attached statement associated with the form. If you are writing the explanation on line 6, you may shorten it to “not legally
required.” Do not write “not applicable.”

 

Sounds reasonable, for your situation.

[trentbridge]

I went to the Jomtien Tax Office in September for a TIN, I am here retired year round, 'they' asked for my passport and work permit, told them I'm retired need it for bank interest refund, to cut short a long repetitive post I was told I don't need TIN and will not issue one.

[Briggsy]

17 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's certainly a bummer. And it's the kind of thing that makes me, as someone who has no meaningful income in Thailand (a few baht of bank interest aside), hesitant about putting myself into their tax system unless there's some worthwhile reason to do so.

 

I don't rely on bank deposits for my retirement extensions, and I do my best to keep any meaningful sums out of the Thai banking system.

 

Since you are over 50 and on an extension due to retirement, I wouldn't sweat it. My post refers to younger expats.

[mahjongguy]

16 hours ago, trentbridge said:

I went to the Jomtien Tax Office in September for a TIN, I am here retired year round, 'they' asked for my passport and work permit, told them I'm retired need it for bank interest refund, to cut short a long repetitive post I was told I don't need TIN and will not issue one.

You got stiffed by someone who was not in the mood.

 

It's a two-stage process. You go there with your passport and a Residence cert from Immigration and they will give you a TIN.

 

With that done you go upstairs with your passport, your TIN, and a letter from your bank which details the amount withheld and they will assist you in filling out a tax return. In a month or less you will get the refund check in the mail.

 

I've done it, at that office, and had no problems, perhaps because I brought along a translator. Last year I didn't file a return because the refund amount wasn't much and I just didn't care, but I still have the option next March to file for both 2017 and 2016.. 

[YetAnother]

On 6/23/2017 at 11:35 AM, mahjongguy said:

Anyone who has fixed accounts here has 15% withheld.

mostly true; doesnt apply to the 3 government-sponsored banks; also note the limit for getting that tax with-holding back is 3 years back

[mahjongguy]

It's a fine point. The accounts that most people get from government banks don't have 15% withholding but that's due to the type of accounts they are allowed to offer. GSB and the others promote unusual accounts that are somewhere in a grey area between savings and fixed. They offer much better interest than savings accounts along with somewhat more flexibility than regular fixed accounts. Not to mention odd stuff like lottery-type drawings.

 

The nearest GSB branch has twice said No to me because I am a retiree and don't have a work permit. Their HQ hotline has told me to go back with a residence cert and force the issue. Maybe I will someday, but there's a limit on how much effort I put into chasing interest.

[higg1279]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:25 PM, Tanoshi said:

 

It depends on individuals circumstances and whether apply for a 'TIN' is by necessity or choice.

 

I have a Fixed term deposit account, the interest of which is taxed at 15% as it's regarded as income obtained from within Thailand.

The tax paid however is below the allowable personal tax allowance.

Therefore I am legally entitled to reclaim such tax deducted, obviously I need a 'TIN' in order to achieve that.

In this situation obtaining a 'TIN' works to my advantage. There is no downside.

Reclaiming tax deducted from the previous years interest, is quick and painless, taking 30 minutes once a year.

Firstly my situation is not related to the USA or any IRS, as I'm not American.

 

My Offshore Bank is pushing for this info (TIN), advising there has been new rules and it's for the purpose of `Tax Residency Self Certification'. 

 

I spend most of my year living in Thailand, certainly more than 180 days. I have a Savings Acct in Thailand, Rental Agreement Contract in place, but don't receive an income from a Thai Employer, nor Intl Company based in Thailand.  I'm 50 next year, so can't really fudge the subject for 10 mths, with a Retirement Visa and hold a Non B Visa. 

 

The question really for me is what is the downside of applying for a TIN in Thailand? Are they likely to go through my Passport and look to see why I didn't have a TIN before?

 

 

[ubonjoe]

46 minutes ago, higg1279 said:

Are they likely to go through my Passport and look to see why I didn't have a TIN before?

There is no requirement for you to have a TIN unless you have income generated here or are wanting to report income from outside the country.

They will not go back through you passport.

[higg1279]

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

There is no requirement for you to have a TIN unless you have income generated here or are wanting to report income from outside the country.

They will not go back through you passport.

Thanks for the info.

 

a) I don't generate income from Thailand.

 

Under normal circumstances, it wouldn't make sense or be in my interest to declare money earned outside of Thailand.

 

I'll speak to the Bank (off the record) and see if they will accept `Legally not required', as an acceptable answer on the application form. If not and it will lead to further scrutiny, I'll apply for a TIN and declare a nominal amount. 

[mahjongguy]

"... I'll apply for a TIN and declare a nominal amount.  "

 

The application form for a TIN (L. P. 10-1) does not ask you to declare or estimate income. It only establishes your identity.

[higg1279]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:22 PM, mahjongguy said:

"... I'll apply for a TIN and declare a nominal amount.  "

 

The application form for a TIN (L. P. 10-1) does not ask you to declare or estimate income. It only establishes your identity.

That's good to know. Is there a L.P.10-1 Form available in English, I can only find a Thai version.

 

Spoke with my Offshore Bank (I.O.M) and they don't have an agreement in place with Thailand to share Banking information. As long as a TIN is obtained (with evidence), that would be satisfactory for the Bank on completing the Self Certification Tax Form. 

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, higg1279 said:

Spoke with my Offshore Bank (I.O.M) and they don't have an agreement in place with Thailand to share Banking information.

 

Where a double taxation agreement exists between two countries and if this agreement provides for sharing information on income received and taxes paid, it is not the banks in one country that share information with the other country, but it is the tax authority of one country that shares information with the tax authority of the other country.

 

The "TAXATION CONVENTION WITH THAILAND" is here:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

A commentary on it is here:

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/taxleeds.html

[higg1279]

Thank you for the info Maestro, but the last article is purely between the USA and Thailand (The Income Tax Treaty Between the United States and Thailand), so of benefit for a USA resident here in Thailand, but not me fortunately. I also believe it doesn't matter where you reside in the world, the USA is looking to extract Tax from their Citizens for any revenue earned. Grossly unfair, but that's another topic!

 

https://www.isla-offshore.com/going-offshore/tax-havens-information-exchange/

 

Based on this article above, Thailand isn't on the list as a Tax Sharing information Country.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:09 PM, higg1279 said:

My Offshore Bank is pushing for this info (TIN), advising there has been new rules and it's for the purpose of `Tax Residency Self Certification'. 

 

I spend most of my year living in Thailand, certainly more than 180 days. I have a Savings Acct in Thailand, Rental Agreement Contract in place, but don't receive an income from a Thai Employer, nor Intl Company based in Thailand.  I'm 50 next year, so can't really fudge the subject for 10 mths, with a Retirement Visa and hold a Non B Visa. 

 

The question really for me is what is the downside of applying for a TIN in Thailand? Are they likely to go through my Passport and look to see why I didn't have a TIN before?

 

 

I'm guessing the form to which you are referring came about as a result of the recent HSBC scandal who were heavily fined for 'money laundering'. A lot of expats received this form.

'Not applicable' was indeed not an acceptable answer and only resulted in more questions.

However the reply 'not registered for taxation in Thailand due to no income from within Thailand' seems to have been an acceptable answer.

[Mattd]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

I'm guessing the form to which you are referring came about as a result of the recent HSBC scandal who were heavily fined for 'money laundering'

No, this form is issued as part of the requirement for all UK registered banks to conform with the Common Reporting Standards and all UK banks are issuing them to their customers who are not resident in the UK.

Some banks are insisting on a TIN regardless of where you reside, some will just accept that Thailand are not yet a part of the CRS.

All to do with tax dodging.

[ubonjoe]

The CRS requirements have been discussed on the home country forum.

There is some info in this topic.

 

[higg1279]

I'd like to think that would be an acceptable answer, but the next question maybe where is the money coming from which is deposited into your account? Example if money is earned from trading on the internet outside of Thailand.

 

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, Mattd said:

No, this form is issued as part of the requirement for all UK registered banks to conform with the Common Reporting Standards and all UK banks are issuing them to their customers who are not resident in the UK.

Some banks are insisting on a TIN regardless of where you reside, some will just accept that Thailand are not yet a part of the CRS.

All to do with tax dodging.

And the requirements came about as a result of the recent HSBC scandal.

Those who spoke personally to their banks were told as much.

 

[Tanoshi]

9 minutes ago, higg1279 said:

I'd like to think that would be an acceptable answer, but the next question maybe where is the money coming from which is deposited into your account? Example if money is earned from trading on the internet outside of Thailand.

 

The next question is where is the account to which such earned income is paid into.

 

If your working from a PC in Thailand, technically your operating, thus therefore working in Thailand without a work permit.

[Mattd]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

And the requirements came about as a result of the recent HSBC scandal.

Possibly helped, though CRS is OECD, so not solely UK and it is based on the US FATCA.

[Tanoshi]

28 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The CRS requirements have been discussed on the home country forum.

There is some info in this topic.

 

Thanks for the link Joe.