"Waterfront" condo purchasers in Pattaya could see some developments later this month

[watcharacters]

6 minutes ago, balo said:

 

 

 

 

Shouldn't someone spend some jail time for this  fraud?

 

 

[pattayadude]

 

On 7/4/2017 at 9:30 AM, webfact said:

Sophon Cable TV reported that people who have bought condos in the "Waterfront Condominium Pattaya" may see some light in their fight against the developers this month.

 

Chalermwat Wimuktayon of Magna Carta said that prospective buyers should go to the local courts......................................

initially the "vultures" left no traceable amount of flesh on "victims".It's now up to the "dogs" to finish off their leftover bones!

After all, it's all organic matter and all edible for some!

[pattayadude]

On 7/11/2017 at 4:20 PM, watcharacters said:

 

Shouldn't someone spend some jail time for this  fraud?

 

 

Yes and from all parties involved in the process.

First,the City hall and/or EIA employees or whoever  was involved in approvals,issuing permits,accepting brown envelopes,faulty, inadequate and look-away inspections.

Secondly, the company hired by the owner of the project which got involved in the plans, obtaining permits, offering brown envelopes AND owners of this project are guilty IMO.

[Basil B]

On 04/07/2017 at 6:44 AM, mikebell said:

Somebody got rich then scarpered before their passport could be seized.

If Thailand can not stop the big fish skipping hours before being sentenced, do you really think they can stop the small fry, but there again the small fry do not get a police car to take them to the boarder.

[newnative]

Any updates from anyone in the know?

[wakeupplease]

On 7/4/2017 at 4:23 AM, trogers said:

Remember the Hopewell project? That saw three governments...

Was that the one where two farang company's went bust, the road never got built and a plane got seized?

 

Would you buy a condo in that block?, reminds me of another development which includes the worlds one and only 6 star hotel and what looks like from the road as you drive towards HH a bloody prison camp.

 

Dos anyone think investing here will see any benefits these days?

 

Welcome to the world of promises in concrete?

[pattayadude]

7 hours ago, newnative said:

Any updates from anyone in the know?

 

There are serious non-compliancy issues with the project. I am not too sure if anyone really knows the details of what exactly they are other than the project owners, their lawyers , Pattaya City Hall and some "unknown characters"...

What's been made public so far is: An overbuilt area of 5000sqm and inadequate parking spots for the total area.

There is a  disagreement between developers and the City Hall on the resolution of these two main issues. Developers proposed a  "5-floor reduction" (chop job) for the overbuilt area and a hydraulic parking for the parking issue and these remedies were apparently rejected by the City Hall.

Meanwhile owners of the project filed "rehabilitation", a form of bankruptcy which allows them to regroup and come up with a plan (approved by the court) to save the project and complete it while legally keeping creditors away until completion.

This is all we(at least I) know so far from what I been reading on these forums.

I am sure there is "more"  to this story and we will probably never find out what that "more" is. Otherwise, I can guarantee that these two issues would be resolved during the past 3 years and unit owners would be sipping their fuzzy drinks by the poolside right now.

I seriously doubt the developers would risk the whole project by not giving up a few more floors on top of the five, to resolve the main issue of the overbuilt area, end this torture and get on with their lives!

But this isn't just it!

At least I don't think it is...

 

If nobody goes to jail at the end of this, all I will say is, "Liberty in exchange of giving up your project" kind of deal was made.

Any other explanation would be similar to insulting my intelligence.

[phycokiller]

its certainly a very prominent and public monument to remind the public never to buy on spec in Pattaya

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, pattayadude said:

I seriously doubt the developers would risk the whole project by not giving up a few more floors on top of the five, to resolve the main issue of the overbuilt area, end this torture and get on with their lives!

 

That depends entirely on how much money they have extracted so far, and how much they think they can extract in the future.

Developers are only in it for profit and they dont give a flying XXXX about anything else at all.

 

Personally I suspect that they have reached a point of diminishing returns.

[pattayadude]

10 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

That depends entirely on how much money they have extracted so far, and how much they think they can extract in the future.

Developers are only in it for profit and they dont give a flying XXXX about anything else at all.

 

Personally I suspect that they have reached a point of diminishing returns.

yes but this isn't a wooden doll house being built..its a full blown skyscraper for god's sake . On what part of  the due diligence did they miscalculate that lead them to decide to chisel in a few extra condos to make up for their loss..LOL

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Sathorn Unique du Pattaya.

[KittenKong]

17 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Sathorn Unique du Pattaya.

 

Absolutely.

 

This could fit in well with City Hall's desire to turn Pattaya into a centre for international sport: they can relaunch Waterfront as Pattaya's premier haunted house adventure attraction.

 

 

[newnative]

7 hours ago, pattayadude said:

 

There are serious non-compliancy issues with the project. I am not too sure if anyone really knows the details of what exactly they are other than the project owners, their lawyers , Pattaya City Hall and some "unknown characters"...

What's been made public so far is: An overbuilt area of 5000sqm and inadequate parking spots for the total area.

There is a  disagreement between developers and the City Hall on the resolution of these two main issues. Developers proposed a  "5-floor reduction" (chop job) for the overbuilt area and a hydraulic parking for the parking issue and these remedies were apparently rejected by the City Hall.

Meanwhile owners of the project filed "rehabilitation", a form of bankruptcy which allows them to regroup and come up with a plan (approved by the court) to save the project and complete it while legally keeping creditors away until completion.

This is all we(at least I) know so far from what I been reading on these forums.

I am sure there is "more"  to this story and we will probably never find out what that "more" is. Otherwise, I can guarantee that these two issues would be resolved during the past 3 years and unit owners would be sipping their fuzzy drinks by the poolside right now.

I seriously doubt the developers would risk the whole project by not giving up a few more floors on top of the five, to resolve the main issue of the overbuilt area, end this torture and get on with their lives!

But this isn't just it!

At least I don't think it is...

 

If nobody goes to jail at the end of this, all I will say is, "Liberty in exchange of giving up your project" kind of deal was made.

Any other explanation would be similar to insulting my intelligence.

      I don't have any ties to the developer and I am not a Waterfront buyer.  The case, however, has interested me; hence my asking if anybody had any updates.  Plus, I have to look at the unfinished hulk every day.   I think it's important to remember that construction was originally halted not due to any compliance issues but, instead, and only, because of very vocal demonstrations and online condemnation regarding the view-blocking height of the project.  The bad publicity, and only the bad publicity, forced City Hall to stop construction.  From the Pattaya Mail, August 20, 2014:

 

       'Pattaya officials have halted construction of a 53-story condominium and hotel project at Bali Hai Pier that sparked an Internet firestorm after photos showing the tower obstructing a classic Pattaya viewpoint went viral online.  Mayor Itthiphol Kunplome stated that the project – first launched in 2004 – has continually followed correct and fully transparent legal processes and he urged anyone alleging that shortcuts were taken to investigate the various hearings and reports themselves.'

 

      So, at the time construction was halted, the project was deemed to be fully compliant and had followed all procedures correctly.  It had EIA approval and, according to City Hall, was not being built too close to the water or too tall.  (Although City Hall did say that it had initially opposed the height of the building but was overruled.)  Which begs the question as to how it could be shut down if City Hall thought it was doing everything properly and legally.

      Having shut it down, City Hall now had to come up with a reason for the construction halt--and this after very publically saying that everything was hunky-dory with the project.  And, thus, we get a shifting list of non-compliance issues. 

       From the news stories of the time, first, it was something to do with the elevators being in the wrong spot and then it was something to do with the emergency staircases.  The latest I saw on the Magna Carta website seems to involve a problem with a corner of the low-rise building encroaching on public land and the number of car parking spaces.  Several massive, new projects come to mind that seem to have quietly flown under the radar with no parking garages and a very inadequate number of surface parking spaces, resulting in many of the cars having to park out on the street.  (But, no noisy protests.)

      At the time of the construction halt, one official noted, according to the Pattaya Mail, that if public agencies had approved the project, even knowing that it blocked scenery, then the public agencies should be at fault rather than the developer.   This radical idea that some public agencies might bear some responsibility seems to have fallen by the wayside.  (And, never mind that, apparently, no public agencies checked on such a prominent project from time to time while it was being built to see if the building specs. were being followed.)

      Had the developer been a large, publically-traded, Bangkok construction company such as Lumpini or Sansiri, a solution likely would have been ironed out years ago.   Instead, we have an unfinished, unsightly skeleton standing abandoned year after year--with that forlorn, never-moving crane at the top.

      There appears to be plenty of fault to go around on all sides.   Was Pattaya gung-ho for the project (until the bad publicity) as part of its Bali Hai redevelopment?  Seems so.  Did EIA approve the project on that site, with substantially that design and height?  Seems so.   Was the project built 'substantially different' than specified?  By how most people would define substantial, seems not.  Was the developer non-compliant on some of the construction specs?  Seems so.  

      This being Thailand, I suspect there are few projects that have completely complied with all aspects of their EIA approved designs.  As yet another day goes by my only wish is that someone in power has the cojones to either order it finished, with compliance changes, or order it torn down. 

[Basil B]

4 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Absolutely.

 

This could fit in well with City Hall's desire to turn Pattaya into a centre for international sport: they can relaunch Waterfront as Pattaya's premier haunted house adventure attraction.

 

 

If this was any first world country... loads of Health and safety violations.

[pattayadude]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

The bad publicity, and only the bad publicity, forced City Hall to stop construction

I have no further questions if a City Hall could and would stop a construction because they "got emotional and were very much moved" by a mere 50 tree-huggers picketing outside.

 

Furthermore, I guess when the authorities, likely a team of construction engineers and architects who stamped to approve  that Waterfront blueprint after months of  complex  calculations and evaluations, they must have forgotten to multiply the  "50 floorsX 3m.= 150 meters"(that's the height of a small mountain)

 

Now try to put these two together.

 

I always wondered why there were so many and long-lasting military coups in Thailand's history. Probably the only country in the world with so many in relatively so little time.

I got my answer now, If you now what I mean!

Edited October 29, 2017 by pattayadude

[CRUNCHER]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

      I don't have any ties to the developer and I am not a Waterfront buyer.  The case, however, has interested me; hence my asking if anybody had any updates.  Plus, I have to look at the unfinished hulk every day.   I think it's important to remember that construction was originally halted not due to any compliance issues but, instead, and only, because of very vocal demonstrations and online condemnation regarding the view-blocking height of the project.  The bad publicity, and only the bad publicity, forced City Hall to stop construction.  From the Pattaya Mail, August 20, 2014:

 

       'Pattaya officials have halted construction of a 53-story condominium and hotel project at Bali Hai Pier that sparked an Internet firestorm after photos showing the tower obstructing a classic Pattaya viewpoint went viral online.  Mayor Itthiphol Kunplome stated that the project – first launched in 2004 – has continually followed correct and fully transparent legal processes and he urged anyone alleging that shortcuts were taken to investigate the various hearings and reports themselves.'

 

      So, at the time construction was halted, the project was deemed to be fully compliant and had followed all procedures correctly.  It had EIA approval and, according to City Hall, was not being built too close to the water or too tall.  (Although City Hall did say that it had initially opposed the height of the building but was overruled.)  Which begs the question as to how it could be shut down if City Hall thought it was doing everything properly and legally.

      Having shut it down, City Hall now had to come up with a reason for the construction halt--and this after very publically saying that everything was hunky-dory with the project.  And, thus, we get a shifting list of non-compliance issues. 

       From the news stories of the time, first, it was something to do with the elevators being in the wrong spot and then it was something to do with the emergency staircases.  The latest I saw on the Magna Carta website seems to involve a problem with a corner of the low-rise building encroaching on public land and the number of car parking spaces.  Several massive, new projects come to mind that seem to have quietly flown under the radar with no parking garages and a very inadequate number of surface parking spaces, resulting in many of the cars having to park out on the street.  (But, no noisy protests.)

      At the time of the construction halt, one official noted, according to the Pattaya Mail, that if public agencies had approved the project, even knowing that it blocked scenery, then the public agencies should be at fault rather than the developer.   This radical idea that some public agencies might bear some responsibility seems to have fallen by the wayside.  (And, never mind that, apparently, no public agencies checked on such a prominent project from time to time while it was being built to see if the building specs. were being followed.)

      Had the developer been a large, publically-traded, Bangkok construction company such as Lumpini or Sansiri, a solution likely would have been ironed out years ago.   Instead, we have an unfinished, unsightly skeleton standing abandoned year after year--with that forlorn, never-moving crane at the top.

      There appears to be plenty of fault to go around on all sides.   Was Pattaya gung-ho for the project (until the bad publicity) as part of its Bali Hai redevelopment?  Seems so.  Did EIA approve the project on that site, with substantially that design and height?  Seems so.   Was the project built 'substantially different' than specified?  By how most people would define substantial, seems not.  Was the developer non-compliant on some of the construction specs?  Seems so.  

      This being Thailand, I suspect there are few projects that have completely complied with all aspects of their EIA approved designs.  As yet another day goes by my only wish is that someone in power has the cojones to either order it finished, with compliance changes, or order it torn down. 

A very interesting post with some highly relevant points raised.  I agree with just about everything you say.

 

On the question of buildings flying under the radar and car parks, there is a mall on the beachfront that has an underground car park.  This, I am reliably informed, is unlawful for beach front properties because of the liability to flooding.  This building has not only been allowed to be finished, but is operational. How did that happen?  Further, it has an unlicensed beer bar on its frontage which caused annoyance to nearby residence which authorities refuse to deal with.

 

Ah what it is to have connections!!!!

 

And if rumors are true it is "connections" that are preventing City Hall from giving the go ahead to continue construction and why City Hall are being so obdurate.  Allegedly there are influential people who want the project stopped and City Hall are piggy in the middle.  I was told that City Hall were upset when the developer filed for bankruptcy protection.  They had hoped the project would quietly slip into bankruptcy and get them off the hook.

 

I agree.  Waterfront should be finished or demolished.  If the latter who is going to do it and who is going to pay. This will be difficult and cost a fortune.  City Hall have problems demolishing a small hotel in Soi VC!!  If not finished the carcass will be there in 20 years, right next to the "PATTAYA" sign.

[Rimmer]

An off topic troll post has been removed

[newnative]

     I've heard those same rumors, Cruncher, and I think there's some truth in them.  How else to explain the foot dragging.  As you said, the project is right next to the 'PATTAYA' sign, possibly the most prominent spot in Pattaya.  It would be one thing to have the project sit unfinished year after year in some out-of-the-way location but there?  In that location? Totally ridiculous. 

[gk10002000]

On 7/8/2017 at 8:25 AM, YetAnother said:

kidding right ? project this size and they didnt do due diligence ?

"They" didn't need to.  It depends on which they.  A group of people that didn't care much, and were quite content to just take people's early deposit money, and didn't care if the project ever was finished.  Or since the government and regime changed radically, the approvals or processes are so convoluted, there is no rule of law.  So risky to buy into these sort of projects

[pattayadude]

10 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

"They" didn't need to.  It depends on which they.  A group of people that didn't care much, and were quite content to just take people's early deposit money, and didn't care if the project ever was finished.  Or since the government and regime changed radically, the approvals or processes are so convoluted, there is no rule of law.  So risky to buy into these sort of projects. 

are you suggesting Pattaya or any other city in Thailand and their political system for that matter is a so lawless, so unpredictable, so unreliable and so untrustworthy that a project previously approved like this one or any other  can be stopped 3 years later, in a state almost near completion by the government in charge then?

Really!

 

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, newnative said:

 Mayor Itthiphol Kunplome stated that the project – first launched in 2004 – has continually followed correct and fully transparent legal processes and he urged anyone alleging that shortcuts were taken to investigate the various hearings and reports themselves.'

There's the "who" if anyone really wanted to find know who is ultimately responsible for this shambles..

 

14 hours ago, newnative said:

As yet another day goes by my only wish is that someone in power has the cojones to either order it finished, with compliance changes, or order it torn down. 

And I would reckon good old Article 44 would be the "how" anything will be enforced.

 

Since the government-appointed city administration had to bend over and take one for the team with regard to the Kunplome-sanctioned Sukhumvit underpass hence the delays in getting the bloody thing opened, I am pretty sure they're waiting for some healing to take place before they bite the pillow on the Waterfront solution... whatever it may be.

[pattayadude]

developers may have a window of opportunity to raise an argument  in court that  the road in front is now (apparently) wide enough to justify the height and the width of the structure due to the recent improvements made in the area for the traffic to flow better.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by pattayadude

[phycokiller]

that actually seems to make it look better. but then the problem was never how it looked from the front, the problem is that its an eyesore from the lookout

[janclaes47]

9 minutes ago, pattayadude said:

developers may have a window of opportunity to raise an argument  in court that  the road in front is now (apparently) wide enough to justify the height and the width of the structure due to the recent improvements made in the area for the traffic to flow better.

 

 

Probably that is has been about all the time, that the local government would accommodate to the constructor, and construction will now pick up again.

[pattayadude]

14 minutes ago, phycokiller said:

that actually seems to make it look better. but then the problem was never how it looked from the front, the problem is that its an eyesore from the lookout

well, maybe they have to change the location of the lookout and move it to the rooftop  for a true

bird's eye view

[Coconutman]

Good luck..

[phycokiller]

4 hours ago, pattayadude said:

well, maybe they have to change the location of the lookout and move it to the rooftop  for a true

bird's eye view

nice idea, a cat walk to a cafe, bungy jump as well

 

[pattayadude]

4 minutes ago, phycokiller said:

nice idea, a cat walk to a cafe, bungy jump as well

 

don't forget  the water slide to the crystal clear waters of the bay. that would be a nice addition

[Destiny1990]

7 hours ago, pattayadude said:

developers may have a window of opportunity to raise an argument  in court that  the road in front is now (apparently) wide enough to justify the height and the width of the structure due to the recent improvements made in the area for the traffic to flow better.

 

Well iets easy to always be negative but looking at the photo they made a decent size pool..

ohh wait or is that the new park? What a joke!

[Henrik Andersen]

23 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Well iets easy to always be negative but looking at the photo they made a decent size pool..

ohh wait or is that the new park? What a joke!

Take it down just my opinion