Where do i have my baby? Australia or Thailand? Advice Please!!!

[perthperson]

Just now, bazza73 said:

Valid point. My Thai GF has a foot-long scar on her tummy, although that was a government hospital. In Australia or the USA, the surgeon would have been sued for malpractice.

 

Thai people a very prone to developing Keloid scars -- The scars may be 'ugly' but they are not the result of malpractice. 

[p_brownstone]

37 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Valid point. My Thai GF has a foot-long scar on her tummy, although that was a government hospital. In Australia or the USA, the surgeon would have been sued for malpractice.

 

My (Thai) wife has had 2 children delivered here in Thailand, both by C Section - both times the Surgeon used what I believe is called a "Bikini incision", a horizontal incision just above the pubic area, both incisions were in exactly the same place. The oldest child is now 16, the youngest 12 and the C Section scar is virtually invisible.

 

Both procedures were done at Sikarin Hospital in Bangkok.

 

Patrick

[simple1]

57 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Valid point. My Thai GF has a foot-long scar on her tummy, although that was a government hospital. In Australia or the USA, the surgeon would have been sued for malpractice.

The same vertical length with my two family members, with scar about half inch wide. Maybe forum member Sheryl can recommend a Phuket hospital / specialist?

Edited July 9, 2017 by simple1

[perthperson]

11 minutes ago, simple1 said:

The same vertical length with my two family members, with scar about half inch wide. Maybe forum member Sheryl can recommend a Phuket hospital / specialist?

Nothing "wrong" with a vertical incision.... http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/multimedia/uterine-incisions-used-during-c-sections/img-20006738   The broad scars you see are likely to be keloid scars which Thai people are prone to develope 

 

In Phuket friends have had satisfactory childbirth experiences at the Phuket Bangkok hospital(private)  and  Vachira hospital (government) 

[simple1]

9 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Nothing "wrong" with a vertical incision.... http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/multimedia/uterine-incisions-used-during-c-sections/img-20006738   The broad scars you see are likely to be keloid scars which Thai people are prone to develope 

 

In Phuket friends have had satisfactory childbirth experiences at the Phuket Bangkok hospital(private)  and  Vachira hospital (government) 

I just posted an advisory for the OP to consider and suggested people with local Thai experience post their comments. Hopefully the info you and others provide will be constructive to guide the OP and husband with their decision making. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by simple1

[perthperson]

3 minutes ago, simple1 said:

At the very least to be aware of some local practices as foot long vertical incisions

 

One would have to prove this is, in fact, common modern day practice.  I suspect it is older ladies sporting these vertical scars 

 

It is a technique still used in the West and is often the only option in the case of the now common grossly obese Western woman

[simple1]

Just now, perthperson said:

 

One would have to prove this is, in fact, common modern day practice.  I suspect it is older ladies sporting these vertical scars 

 

It is a technique still used in the West and is often the only option in the case of the now common grossly obese Western woman

last response, apologies to OP for any distraction.

 

Family friend attended a private hospital in Pattaya, not obese, about six months months ago.  She had no complications whilst giving birth, underwent C Section with heavy scarring as the outcome. As already mentioned C Section is often BAU, not the exception in Thailand. 

[perthperson]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

underwent C Section with heavy scarring

 

Is she Thai ?   

 

Look up Keloid scarring and recognise that this is something to which Thai's are susceptible to suffering. Almost all Thais display a keloid on their shoulder(upper arm) which has resulted from vaccination. 

 

 

[Beats56]

My boy was born here in Thailand. 5 years ago. Wife had a c section. Cost to pay doctor was 5000 bt. Got him a Canadian citizenship and passport which took a year. I would like him to be schooled in Canada but it would be difficult with finances and starting over again there.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Beats56
Crashed site

[Beats56]

4 hours ago, perthperson said:

 

Is she Thai ?   

 

Look up Keloid scarring and recognise that this is something to which Thai's are susceptible to suffering. Almost all Thais display a keloid on their shoulder(upper arm) which has resulted from vaccination. 

 

 

I know all about keloids after a motorcycle accident. My arms and legs have them. Terrible pain for a year as I went to clinc.  So bad one time they gave me a shot of morphine to ease the pain. They are caused by too much colligen in your body..not bad to have if you don't want wrinkles on your face. scares look like hell but thank goodness I don't have on my face.

[richard_smith237]

Regarding the discussion on 'Pressure to have a Caesarean' ... 

 

I can confirm that this a 'general culture' here in Thailand in which C-Section is the norm. 

A lot of this stems from the nature of Thailands ingrained belief in the mystical - Fortune tellers often provide an 'optimum' birth time for the luck of the child.... and the caesarian will planned to take place at this time.... This is one aspect. 

Other aspects are convenience for the hospital - a C-Section takes mere minutes (perhaps an hour with pre-op prep and post op care & cleanup) - its just easier for the Doctors !

Other aspects also include the wishes of the Mother for whom a quick C-section is easier than hours and hours of painful labour, the recovery from the C-section is relatively quick (we were out in a shopping centre a week after Birth by C-section).

 

Ultimately, my advice for the Op would be to go with whichever process she is comfortable with and don't allow herself to be pushed into anything.

My Wife's Obstetrician and I had in-depth discussions regarding best practices results of modern research... fetal heart rates, timing of cutting the umbilical cord etc....

Along with my Wife we agreed upon a plan whereby natural birth would be attempted for 8 hours after which we would go for a c-sectoin. We also agreed that should the fetal heart rate drop below 120bpm for more than a minute we will go for a medically elected C-sectoin, the room was to be standing by ready. 

 

The discussions with an intelligent Doctor who's primary goal is the Mother & Babies care (above his own ego) is key to a successful and relaxing birthing process (as relaxing as it could be). Ultimately, after numerous discussions and meetings my Wife and I had great trust in her Obstetrician who I would recommend to anyone. 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

I believe the Major point for the Op to Consider is Cost: 

 

Does she have medical insurance which covers Child Birth and complications as a result of Childbirth?

Does her medical insurance cover congenital defects of the Child ?

Usually insurance covers the child for Up to a certain period, after which point the Child may require their own cover. 

 

In my case I took out separate cover for my child from the point of Birth - this was to ensure that he was full covered without pre-existing conditions exception should there be any congenital defects which persisted after the initial 90 day parental cover. 

 

IF any of this is too much for the Op and she doesn't have sufficient medical cover there is only one logical answer IMO: Have the baby in Australia (be careful of travel dates as birth draws closer as some airlines have strong restrictions on pregnant ladies traveling).

 

IF the Op has full medical cover including maternity costs and complications as a result of maternity & Child Birth and IF she can get full Medical insurance Cover for her child - then I would recommend a top hospital here in Thailand - Namely Bumrungrad which is universally and widely renowned as the best hospital in Thailand, I have no reason or experience (of 20 years living here) to question that. 

 

[tryasimight]

It really depends on what you mean by Australia.

Both my kids were born in Oz.

The first in a regional centre...the second in a more remote area...no problems with either.

 

It did get interesting at one point though when the tribal aboriginal lady in the bed next to the wife decided when was going to give birth (her 9th apparently) that the white mans ways were no good and promptly legged it. Took quite a while of frantic searching (toilets cupboards etc etc) before they found her..... she walked back into the hospital from the bush over the road from the hospital with a bouncing baby boy. They had to wash the young fella as mum had rolled him in buffalo shit..as per the local beliefs.

 

She wasn't sick......she was pregnant and knew what to do.

 

 

[seabass69]

On 8 July 2017 at 0:35 AM, richard_smith237 said:

I have friends who decided upon having their child in a hospital in Australia... after birth a minor congenital defect was found, they were extremely relieved with their decision to have their child in a hospital in Australia where communication was much much easier for them. 

 

That said, my Wife gave birth in Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok - the Cost was 330,000 baht (insurance paid), you can also buy packages which at the high end hospitals costs about 120,000 baht for 3 nights, however, any issues and you could soon find yourself with a huge bill. 

 

Thus: the deciding factor really should be, does your insurance cover all maternity related issues ?

 

If cost isn't an issue, consider communication although at the top hospitals most Dr's speak pretty good to excellent English. 

 

Another point to consider is your support network... who and where are they....

 

 

Regarding nationality. If you were born in Australia and are Australian, so is he... automatically.

Although if your child is born in Thailand you will need to apply for an Australian passport for the child before he/she travels internationally from Thailand (to Australia)

 

Best of luck... 

 

 

 

 

Not true. You don't have to be born in Australia to be Australian. Nor is the child automatically Australian if born overseas. The child does not necessarily need an Aussie passport to travel to Australia. Our son was born in Thailand and flew with us to Australia on a visitor visa and Thai passport when he was 6 months old. When in Sydney it was a simple process to apply for citizenship by descent and then his Aussie passport.

[jimster]

On 7/8/2017 at 11:37 AM, perthperson said:

 

Before you start chucking words like "nonsense" around you should check some facts.

 

It is a fact that Cesarean births are 'preferred' by wealthy Thais and that option is also pressed upon non Thais especially within private hospitals. It is also a fact that most(all) Thai maternity facilities (public or private) exclude a woman's partner/family members  from the delivery suit.

 

It is also a fact that Western women are encouraged to be involved in their pregnancy/confinement.   https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/servicesandsupport/developing-a-birth-plan Or http://www.kemh.health.wa.gov.au/services/fbc/index.htm are examples. 

 

Find one woman in Thailand who has been actively encouraged by Thai Obstetricians/Midwives to develop a "birth plan" and I will withdraw from this thread.

100% true. C-section rates at most Thai private hospitals are close to 100% (100% at some) and as high as 70-90% even at government hospitals, which is amongst the highest in the world. By comparison, the 30% c-section rates in the USA are already considered many times too high yet are only a third of the Thai rate. Many Thai mothers demand them and there was even a case recently where a set of parents who bore a stillborn child blamed the government hospital where they went to give birth for their child's death because the doctor surprisingly didn't order a c-section. They ignored the fact that the reason(s) for their child being stillborn could amount to any number of factors including environmental exposure to toxins, poor hygiene, poor nutrition and poor sanitation.

[jimster]

On 7/8/2017 at 2:58 PM, FritsSikkink said:

Wife didn't get steered for a Caesarean birth with 3 kids (4, 12, 25) FACT. Didn't feel the urge to develop a birth plan.

 25 years ago things were way different and even 12 years ago they may have been quite different from today. C-sections have been pushed on women in Thailand for many years now though, especially at private hospitals where the c-section rates are as high as 100%. Few Thai women object, as they are almost universally trustworthy and submissive towards medical authority, which is very concerning. Thai women in relationships with foreigners or those who have lived abroad are exceptions.

 

Thailand is a terrible place to give birth to a child. Especially for foreigners.

Edited July 10, 2017 by jimster

[perthperson]

On 7/9/2017 at 8:21 AM, bazza73 said:

Valid point. My Thai GF has a foot-long scar on her tummy, although that was a government hospital. In Australia or the USA, the surgeon would have been sued for malpractice.

 

No surgeon in Australia or anywhere else has been sued for the development of a keloid scar something the surgeon has no contol over.  

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, jimster said:

100% true. C-section rates at most Thai private hospitals are close to 100% (100% at some) and as high as 70-90% even at government hospitals, which is amongst the highest in the world. By comparison, the 30% c-section rates in the USA are already considered many times too high yet are only a third of the Thai rate. Many Thai mothers demand them and there was even a case recently where a set of parents who bore a stillborn child blamed the government hospital where they went to give birth for their child's death because the doctor surprisingly didn't order a c-section. They ignored the fact that the reason(s) for their child being stillborn could amount to any number of factors including environmental exposure to toxins, poor hygiene, poor nutrition and poor sanitation.

here some facts, look at the rates in Australia compared to Thailand:

 

http://www.who.int/healthsystems/topics/financing/healthreport/30C-sectioncosts.pdf

 

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth/highest-c-section-rates-by-country/

[Sheryl]

The rate for Thailand is for the country overall. The great majority if Thais deliver in government hospitals. These do not perform unnecessary c-sections. The problrm is in private hospitals.

[SABloke]

On 7/8/2017 at 11:37 AM, perthperson said:

 

Before you start chucking words like "nonsense" around you should check some facts.

 

It is a fact that Cesarean births are 'preferred' by wealthy Thais and that option is also pressed upon non Thais especially within private hospitals. It is also a fact that most(all) Thai maternity facilities (public or private) exclude a woman's partner/family members  from the delivery suit.

 

It is also a fact that Western women are encouraged to be involved in their pregnancy/confinement.   https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/servicesandsupport/developing-a-birth-plan Or http://www.kemh.health.wa.gov.au/services/fbc/index.htm are examples. 

 

Find one woman in Thailand who has been actively encouraged by Thai Obstetricians/Midwives to develop a "birth plan" and I will withdraw from this thread.

I can only speak from personal experience: My wife had a Caesarean at the last minute because my daughter was way too big and couldn't come out naturally. Otherwise, she would've have given vaginal birth. Now, I know that in the UK "natural" birth is pushed more than here, which is why my sister knows months in advance when she's going to give birth, 'naturally' 

 

For me, I believe that waiting for when my daughter was ready to come on her own (even though she couldn't make the final journey by herself) is more natural than an induced vaginal birth.

[wildewillie89]

Wife had my daughter in Thai at the same time the step mother had my half brother in Australia. Wife spent a few good days in a private room at the government hospital to make sure she had recovered properly. Mother-in-law was rushed out of the Australian hospital as soon as the little guy had come out. 

No costs and imported medication, rather than Thai made stuff (due to her job). 

Although Australia I find would be better for the father, my dad was in the room when the C-section was being performed. I had to wait outside (was like one of those old movies where the father must wait in the next room waiting for the news lol). Both C-sections were for medical reasons. Although there is one doctor in the city who is the most popular purely as their is a belief the scar is the smallest with him (government hospital). So people go to him to have a C-section for no reason at all. 

Also, Australia seemed a lot better in the education aspect. Even though my step mother was rushed out, they still gave her a lot of tips. Thai, well it really depends on the nurses you get (many are lazy). 

Edited July 12, 2017 by wildewillie89

[boike]

Hard to say where would be better. I think you should look at what education you want your child to have. But I do advice you to register your pregnancy with the Australian embassy together with the father. I know that the Dutch embassy recognizes the unborn child as a Dutch citizen if mother and father register themselves and the unborn child at the embassy.
Good luck with your decision.

Sent from my XT1572 using Tapatalk

[jimster]

On 7/10/2017 at 8:46 PM, FritsSikkink said:

here some facts, look at the rates in Australia compared to Thailand:

 

http://www.who.int/healthsystems/topics/financing/healthreport/30C-sectioncosts.pdf

 

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth/highest-c-section-rates-by-country/

I have obtained the figures I quoted from Thai hospitals through a friend who is a maternity physician. The 17% figure for Thailand in this report is bogus (unless they only obtained figures from a few government hospitals) - though even at some government hospitals, c-sections are the norm rather than the exception. The major exception are "sanitation centers" or "rural health centers", which are government funded hospitals with minimal facilities located in the most rural of areas. In these places, c-sections are usually not an option but at nearly every kind of hospital in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and every other major city, once the time limit on natural birth has passed (8-12 hours, although it could be more, depends on the hospital's policy) they will push for a c-section. C-sections are not routine at other government hospitals located elsewhere but this depends on the individual hospital, whether it's a teaching hospital and it's reputation etc.

 

From statistics I have seen elsewhere, the overall c-section rate in Thailand is likely to be around 40% or so, 90-100% at many private hospitals (the highest percentage in the world, equal with Brazil, Iran, China and a few other middle income countries), very low at sanitation centers (no reliable statistics available), 20-50% at most government hospitals with 70-90% rates at some of the more "reputable" government facilities.

 

As for other big users of c-sections such as Brazil I have seen many % floating around, depending on the source.

Edited November 20, 2017 by jimster

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, jimster said:

I have obtained the figures I quoted from Thai hospitals through a friend who is a maternity physician. The 17% figure for Thailand in this report is bogus (unless they only obtained figures from a few government hospitals) - though even at some government hospitals, c-sections are the norm rather than the exception. The major exception are "sanitation centers" or "rural health centers", which are government funded hospitals with minimal facilities located in the most rural of areas. In these places, c-sections are usually not an option but at nearly every kind of hospital in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and every other major city, once the time limit on natural birth has passed (8-12 hours, although it could be more, depends on the hospital's policy) they will push for a c-section. C-sections are not routine at other government hospitals located elsewhere but this depends on the individual hospital, whether it's a teaching hospital and it's reputation etc.

1 hour ago, jimster said:

I have obtained the figures I quoted from Thai hospitals through a friend who is a maternity physician. The 17% figure for Thailand in this report is bogus (unless they only obtained figures from a few government hospitals) - though even at some government hospitals, c-sections are the norm rather than the exception. The major exception are "sanitation centers" or "rural health centers", which are government funded hospitals with minimal facilities located in the most rural of areas. In these places, c-sections are usually not an option but at nearly every kind of hospital in Bangkok, Chiang Mai and every other major city, once the time limit on natural birth has passed (8-12 hours, although it could be more, depends on the hospital's policy) they will push for a c-section. C-sections are not routine at other government hospitals located elsewhere but this depends on the individual hospital, whether it's a teaching hospital and it's reputation etc.

 

From statistics I have seen elsewhere, the overall c-section rate in Thailand is likely to be around 40% or so, 90-100% at many private hospitals (the highest percentage in the world, equal with Brazil, Iran, China and a few other middle income countries), very low at sanitation centers (no reliable statistics available), 20-50% at most government hospitals with 70-90% rates at some of the more "reputable" government facilities.

 

As for other big users of c-sections such as Brazil I have seen many % floating around, depending on the source.

From statistics I have seen elsewhere, the overall c-section rate in Thailand is likely to be around 40% or so, 90-100% at many private hospitals (the highest percentage in the world, equal with Brazil, Iran, China and a few other middle income countries), very low at sanitation centers (no reliable statistics available), 20-50% at most government hospitals with 70-90% rates at some of the more "reputable" government facilities.

 

As for other big users of c-sections such as Brazil I have seen many % floating around, depending on the source.

Show me the link to the statistics. 20-50 and 70-90 isn't really reliable to start with. The WHO is bogus?

[jimster]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

Show me the link to the statistics. 20-50 and 70-90 isn't really reliable to start with. The WHO is bogus?

Yawn. There are HUGE variations between private and public as I tried to make clear in my post. The WHO's statistics could have come from anywhere, how do you know how many hospitals they surveyed? How about consulting other sources, especially local ones, which are probably much more reliable?

 

As I said, a medical professional in Thailand gave me the statistics and I can't disclose which hospitals they refer to - but I can tell you quite a few major private, along with a few government hospitals mainly in Bangkok were mentioned. There are tons of statistics available if you are interested in this topic, why not go to Google (or your choice of search engine) and find out yourself? Similarly, OB/GYN/other medical journals have articles with this information contained that can be downloaded for free from the internet, and there are many books available on the topic.

[jimster]

Just noticed that the statistics from Thailand are based on 2001 figures (which may have been compiled based on the previous year's figures as is often done; the report was issued in 2001). A lot has happened since that time and I suspect that the statistics refer only to government hospitals (would need to take a look at the original report to see what is mentioned). Even 15-20 years ago, there were far fewer c-sections taking place in Thailand than today. In any case, that UN report has figures from all over the place, late 90s, late 2000s etc., no indication of private vs. public there is no consistency whatsoever.

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, jimster said:

Yawn. There are HUGE variations between private and public as I tried to make clear in my post. The WHO's statistics could have come from anywhere, how do you know how many hospitals they surveyed? How about consulting other sources, especially local ones, which are probably much more reliable?

 

As I said, a medical professional in Thailand gave me the statistics and I can't disclose which hospitals they refer to - but I can tell you quite a few major private, along with a few government hospitals mainly in Bangkok were mentioned. There are tons of statistics available if you are interested in this topic, why not go to Google (or your choice of search engine) and find out yourself? Similarly, OB/GYN/other medical journals have articles with this information contained that can be downloaded for free from the internet, and there are many books available on the topic.

How many hospitals did your friend survey?

[jimster]

16 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

How many hospitals did your friend survey?

Around 50. Mostly in Bangkok and other large cities. Most are indeed private hospitals, but there are a few well known government hospitals (mainly teaching ones) that were surveyed too. I too was initially surprised by the high c-section rate at some of the government hospitals (even though they were, as expected, lower than at the private hospitals). Of course, it's still not routine at most government hospitals, just depends where you go. Most western expats and middle/upper middle class Thais tend towards private hospitals.

Edited November 21, 2017 by jimster

[FritsSikkink]

10 hours ago, jimster said:

Around 50. Mostly in Bangkok and other large cities. Most are indeed private hospitals, but there are a few well known government hospitals (mainly teaching ones) that were surveyed too. I too was initially surprised by the high c-section rate at some of the government hospitals (even though they were, as expected, lower than at the private hospitals). Of course, it's still not routine at most government hospitals, just depends where you go. Most western expats and middle/upper middle class Thais tend towards private hospitals.

Around 50, figures like 20-50 and 70-90, not very scientific like the 2 links I showed. Did he make a report or did he remember all the stats from the around 50 hospitals?  

[jimster]

On 11/22/2017 at 8:18 AM, FritsSikkink said:

Around 50, figures like 20-50 and 70-90, not very scientific like the 2 links I showed. Did he make a report or did he remember all the stats from the around 50 hospitals?  

She made a private report using the stats provided. Your links were fine, just that the statistics from the WHO report are very old and there is no information as to where their sources came from (or even what year; we only know that the report itself was written in 2001). Spoke to one of the very few experts (a professor and OB/GYN) in natural childbirth at Thailand's only natural birth centre and she was embarrassed to admit it when I asked the question but the statistics for natural birth, especially at private hospitals are grim. Out of dozens of OB/GYNs at that hospital, there are only 2 physicians with any training in natural childbirth.