Yellow book runaround - I've given up !

[Andrew Dwyer]

Have recently bought a house and decided I wanted a yellow book and possibly the pink id to follow. Gf has blue book for house.

NOTE: I know the ongoing discussions about whether a yellow book is worth the effort or not but I chose pursue one anyway.

 

My Amphur ( Bang Pa -in, Ayutthaya ) requested a certified translation of my passport and birth certificate.

I obliged with a visit to British Embassy for copy of passport and then to MFA for translation and certification ( just translation for birth certificate was okay )

 

Back to Amphur, head man there gave us ( me and gf ) a grilling about living with farangs and hinted that all farangs use drugs regularly ( I only found this out when gf related after ).

Basically told us to call back in 2 weeks, called back yesterday, now he wants to see my Decree Nisi, problem being it's in England and is in Portuguese ( Brazilian ) !!

 

So, I've given up !!

 

Is he being unreasonable ?

Am I giving up too easily ?

 

Problem is the cost of translation and certification etc will be high and I feel that he may just invent another hurdle afterwards .

 

Anybody had similar?

 

Any suggestions ?

[Monomial]

You are being unreasonable and giving up way too early. Either you want the book or you don't.

 

Took me 2 months and I spent almost 40,000 baht including a flight jumping through hoops before I finally got my yellow book. Some of these guys love to feel like they are in power.

 

You can either quit, or keep giving them what they want. And yes, I asked about shortcuts...none were available (I had a well connected Thai acquaintance make the attempt) and there was no facilitation fee was paid when the book was finally issued. Many just don't feel farangs deserve this document, no matter what the law says. If you are in a district like that, you either move to a new district or just struggle through it.

 

You need to get the decree translated from Portuguese into English, stamped by the Brazillian Embassy, and then get the English translated into Thai and get that certified at the MFA.

 

It's up to you whether to continue, but no point in complaining about it.

 

[colinneil]

Problem is most Amphur staff are ignorant of the law.

All this nonsense about translations is made up locally.

Every Amphur makes up their own rules, because they dont know the law or are just to lazy to find out.

Losing face cannot happen here, so they just make up rules to cover their own failings.

I got my yellow book simply by walking in the Amphur, produced passport, gave my parents names, job done out in 30 minutes, do not cost 1 baht.

[NanLaew]

Sounds like the 'head man' at the Amphur's office in Bang Pa-in is an oxygen waster that hates all foreigners. The one at Nongbua Lam Phu in Isaan was similarly blighted.

 

I would throw the towel in until he dies or you relocate. Even if you get the Portuguese Decree Nisi translated and certified by the MFA (itself a doubtful exercise), he will then want a police check. You get one from the local plod and he will want one from your home police... or vice versa. 

[Andrew Dwyer]

You are being unreasonable and giving up way too early. Either you want the book or you don't.
 
Took me 2 months and I spent almost 40,000 baht including a flight jumping through hoops before I finally got my yellow book. Some of these guys love to feel like they are in power.
 
You can either quit, or keep giving them what they want. And yes, I asked about shortcuts...none were available (I had a well connected Thai acquaintance make the attempt) and there was no facilitation fee was paid when the book was finally issued. Many just don't feel farangs deserve this document, no matter what the law says. If you are in a district like that, you either move to a new district or just struggle through it.
 
You need to get the decree translated from Portuguese into English, stamped by the Brazillian Embassy, and then get the English translated into Thai and get that certified at the MFA.
 
It's up to you whether to continue, but no point in complaining about it.
 

Okay, thanks for your honest reply, I do feel that you are correct and will probably end up going that route despite saying I've given up.

I know others have had a much easier route and some have had it harder, I would like to know if mine is typical and what others would do in my situation.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Sounds like the 'head man' at the Amphur's office in Bang Pa-in is an oxygen waster that hates all foreigners. The one at Nongbua Lam Phu in Isaan was similarly blighted.
 
I would throw the towel in until he dies or you relocate. Even if you get the Portuguese Decree Nisi translated and certified by the MFA (itself a doubtful exercise), he will then want a police check. You get one from the local plod and he will want one from your home police... or vice versa. 

Yeah, as monomial suggests, I would have to get a certified copy of the Decree Nisi from the Brazilian Embassy, then translated to English and certified ( not sure by who, embassies don't do translation and not sure if MFA can do anything other than English or Thai ? ), then translated to Thai and certified blah blah blah [emoji20]

Surely there must be other TV members with Decree Nisi's in languages other than English who had translated ??

A bit of detective work is required me thinks !!

[Ron19]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Okay, thanks for your honest reply, I do feel that you are correct and will probably end up going that route despite saying I've given up.

I know others have had a much easier route and some have had it harder, I would like to know if mine is typical and what others would do in my situation.

I had the same thing in Phichai, four visits over 1 month with each time being asked for something different and that is after all the required paperwork was given to them on the 1st visit. The crunch came when finally she gave me an appointment and to bring the village head and another witness along. When we arrived, staggered me with the comment that now every single bit of paper had to be translated to thai and that included things issued from Thai authorities.

I calmly asked her to give me all the paperwork back and calmly walked out the door. I tell you I was steaming. At no stage had I said anything that would cause her to do things the way she did.

[Rc2702]

Mine was a bit of a run around but we did not have any opiniated headman like you mention. The chap seemed pretty decent to be fair. The chap in the office of the Amphur was the reason for the delays but I genuinely think he was just nit on the ball as opposed to making life hard for us. 

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

Basically it's not unusual (standard req.) to supply Thai translation of passport and birth certificate as the translated names/nationalities are needed for the YB.

It's just the case that some district offices (like mine) are happy with a simple translation from a certified translator.

No embassy or MFA involved.

And I was lucky that Swiss documents are multilingual incl. English.

English to Thai translator is easy to find.

 

So yes, you are quite unlucky with your office and circumstances.

 

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Okay, thanks for your honest reply, I do feel that you are correct and will probably end up going that route despite saying I've given up.

I know others have had a much easier route and some have had it harder, I would like to know if mine is typical and what others would do in my situation.

I (as a fellow Brit) had a similar experience to yours in 2009. Went through all the Embassy & MFA hoops as prescribed by my amphur, only to fall at the final fence when some eagle-eyed official there spotted that the Thai transliteration in the certified translation of my surname in the Embassy doc did not exactly match my wife's as stated in her blue house book! At that point I threw in the towel.

 

If you have a specific reason for requiring a yellow house book such a driving licence renewal/application, maybe, it might be worth your while persevering. That said, I have never experienced any sense of deprivation over the past 8 years as a result of not being the proud possessor of a yellow book - but, there again, I have never had the burning desire to get behind the steering wheel of a moving vehicle on the highways and byeways of LOS either!

Edited August 1, 2017 by OJAS

[KhunBENQ]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

when some eagle-eyed official there spotted that the Thai transliteration in the certified translation of my Embassy doc did not exactly match that of my wife as stated in her blue house book!

Exactly such can happen.

E.g. in my case I pointed the translator to the marriage documents for my family name in Thai.

Unfortunately the transcription is not exact science.

[Andrew Dwyer]

I (as a fellow Brit) had a similar experience to yours in 2009. Went through all the Embassy & MFA hoops as prescribed by my amphur, only to fall at the final fence when some eagle-eyed official there spotted that the Thai transliteration in the certified translation of my surname in the Embassy doc did not exactly match my wife's as stated in her blue house book! At that point I threw in the towel.
 
If you have a specific reason for requiring a yellow house book such a driving licence renewal/application, maybe, it might be worth your while persevering. That said, I have never experienced any sense of deprivation over the past 8 years as a result of not being the proud possessor of a yellow book - but, there again, I have never had the burning desire to get behind the steering wheel of a moving vehicle on the highways and byeways of LOS either!

Yes, I guess right now I'm 50/50 , get my Decree posted over and look at translation costs etc or say " fork it ", I'll just get a residence certificate from immigration as and when required.

The thing that riles is that dealing with Amphur's (or Immigration) is pot luck, if the rules were there in black and white and, more importantly, the offices adhered to them then making the decision to go for the yellow book would be simple.

[Preacher]

The requirements are listed in the regulations regarding the yellow book. They can ask for extra documents, but on request must state the extra required documents and the reason they want them in writing and signed by the chief district officer, the neigh amphur. The document can be challenged in court. They really do not have much more power than you allow them.

 

Often they ask for extra documents because they can't read English and are afraid to translate things themselves. So they want docuemtns so they cna blame somebody else for mistakes. Provide them with some translations you have and they will not go so far as having to issue a letter and possibly being challenged on that, by the chief district officer itself in the first place.

[Tanoshi]

There was another thread Andrew that you participated in.

 

I told you there you were being given the run around due to the fact you were applying at a district office (admin level 2) who probably don't know the correct procedure.

In these situations you should always visit the Provincial office, which is always located in the centre of the town (Mueang) area.

 

My reply to you was on page 3 of that thread. Perhaps you missed it. (Sorry no post numbers, presumably due to the ongoing update).

[Andrew Dwyer]

There was another thread Andrew that you participated in.
 
I told you there you were being given the run around due to the fact you were applying at a district office (admin level 2) who probably don't know the correct procedure.
In these situations you should always visit the Provincial office, which is always located in the centre of the town (Mueang) area.
 
My reply to you was on page 3 of that thread. Perhaps you missed it. (Sorry no post numbers, presumably due to the ongoing update).

I do remember that Tanoshi and that was on my mind when I came out of the " interview " but I thought they were just going to make me sweat ( and show their power over me ) for two weeks and then give me the book ( I know call me Mr Naive [emoji51]).

Now , your suggestion is a valid option although I did read a thread recently where UbonJoe and yourself were discussing this exact topic and I don't remember the outcome or UbonJoe's exact opinion on this.

[Tanoshi]

Jo 

29 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I do remember that Tanoshi and that was on my mind when I came out of the " interview " but I thought they were just going to make me sweat ( and show their power over me ) for two weeks and then give me the book ( I know call me Mr Naive ).

Now , your suggestion is a valid option although I did read a thread recently where UbonJoe and yourself were discussing this exact topic and I don't remember the outcome or UbonJoe's exact opinion on this.

UJ didn't reply in that topic.

This is what I generally stated;

 

There is no definitive answer to your question, unless someone applied at the same municipal office.

Thailand's Provinces are like autonomous regions.

The local government of Bangkok dictates the laws, as in the Civil Registration Act which allows  'aliens' to register and obtain a House book and subsequently a Thai ID card for foreigners. Aliens are issued a Yellow book as opposed to the Blue book issued to Thais.

Foreign Condo or House owners can be issued Blue books, but cannot be named in them.

Foreigners with PR status can be named as a 'dweller' in the blue house book of their wife/husband.

 

Each province has it's own local administrative local government.

They dictate the administrative process required to comply with the law.

 

Thais refer to these municipal government complexes as Thesaban's.

There are 3 levels of administration within each Province.  City, town and sub district.

Level 3 are Thesaban offices located within your Tambon (sub district).

Level 2 are Thesaban offices located within your Town or Amphoe (District)

Level 1 are the main Thesaban offices located within your City or Town (Always Mueang or Nai Muang Districts)

 

Depending on the administration level you apply greatly depends on the individual experience you may have.

Level 3 will usually have little knowledge of issuing foreigners with Tabien Baan's, let alone stock them, be familiar with the procedures, or likely have the equipment to take your Biometric information,  and will usually give you the run around because of their lack of experience. Complain about your rubbish collection and they can deal with it.

Level 2 will be more familiar with the process, better qualified, trained and should have the equipment to take your Biometrics.

Level 1 is the Thesaban to visit if you have problems at level 3 or 2 administration levels. They should have English speaking management, definitely have the equipment and stock, and are used to dealing with foreigners.

 

This is not about anyone's opinion, it's based on my experience.

Had a number of local expats and members of the forum, who I gave the same advice to and those who followed that advise received their TB without the issues that were being presented with at a lower level of Thesaban.

 

It worked for members from Phetchabun, Phichit and Nong Khai, why not in Ayutthaya.

[Andrew Dwyer]

Jo 
UJ didn't reply in that topic.
This is what I generally stated;
 
There is no definitive answer to your question, unless someone applied at the same municipal office.
Thailand's Provinces are like autonomous regions.
The local government of Bangkok dictates the laws, as in the Civil Registration Act which allows  'aliens' to register and obtain a House book and subsequently a Thai ID card for foreigners. Aliens are issued a Yellow book as opposed to the Blue book issued to Thais.
Foreign Condo or House owners can be issued Blue books, but cannot be named in them.
Foreigners with PR status can be named as a 'dweller' in the blue house book of their wife/husband.
 
Each province has it's own local administrative local government.
They dictate the administrative process required to comply with the law.
 
Thais refer to these municipal government complexes as Thesaban's.
There are 3 levels of administration within each Province.  City, town and sub district.
Level 3 are Thesaban offices located within your Tambon (sub district).
Level 2 are Thesaban offices located within your Town or Amphoe (District)
Level 1 are the main Thesaban offices located within your City or Town (Always Mueang or Nai Muang Districts)
 
Depending on the administration level you apply greatly depends on the individual experience you may have.
Level 3 will usually have little knowledge of issuing foreigners with Tabien Baan's, let alone stock them, be familiar with the procedures, or likely have the equipment to take your Biometric information,  and will usually give you the run around because of their lack of experience. Complain about your rubbish collection and they can deal with it.
Level 2 will be more familiar with the process, better qualified, trained and should have the equipment to take your Biometrics.
Level 1 is the Thesaban to visit if you have problems at level 3 or 2 administration levels. They should have English speaking management, definitely have the equipment and stock, and are used to dealing with foreigners.
 
This is not about anyone's opinion, it's based on my experience.
Had a number of local expats and members of the forum, who I gave the same advice to and those who followed that advise received their TB without the issues that were being presented with at a lower level of Thesaban.
 
It worked for members from Phetchabun, Phichit and Nong Khai, why not in Ayutthaya.

Yes, I meant you and UJ discussed this in a different thread .

I just read through the whole yellow house book registration report thread again and tomorrow I'll go back to the Amphur for my docs and seek out the Provincial office, thanks.

[Monomial]

27 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Jo 

UJ didn't reply in that topic.

This is what I generally stated;

 

There is no definitive answer to your question, unless someone applied at the same municipal office.

Thailand's Provinces are like autonomous regions.

The local government of Bangkok dictates the laws, as in the Civil Registration Act which allows  'aliens' to register and obtain a House book and subsequently a Thai ID card for foreigners. Aliens are issued a Yellow book as opposed to the Blue book issued to Thais.

Foreign Condo or House owners can be issued Blue books, but cannot be named in them.

Foreigners with PR status can be named as a 'dweller' in the blue house book of their wife/husband.

 

Each province has it's own local administrative local government.

They dictate the administrative process required to comply with the law.

 

Thais refer to these municipal government complexes as Thesaban's.

There are 3 levels of administration within each Province.  City, town and sub district.

Level 3 are Thesaban offices located within your Tambon (sub district).

Level 2 are Thesaban offices located within your Town or Amphoe (District)

Level 1 are the main Thesaban offices located within your City or Town (Always Mueang or Nai Muang Districts)

 

Depending on the administration level you apply greatly depends on the individual experience you may have.

Level 3 will usually have little knowledge of issuing foreigners with Tabien Baan's, let alone stock them, be familiar with the procedures, or likely have the equipment to take your Biometric information,  and will usually give you the run around because of their lack of experience. Complain about your rubbish collection and they can deal with it.

Level 2 will be more familiar with the process, better qualified, trained and should have the equipment to take your Biometrics.

Level 1 is the Thesaban to visit if you have problems at level 3 or 2 administration levels. They should have English speaking management, definitely have the equipment and stock, and are used to dealing with foreigners.

 

This is not about anyone's opinion, it's based on my experience.

Had a number of local expats and members of the forum, who I gave the same advice to and those who followed that advise received their TB without the issues that were being presented with at a lower level of Thesaban.

 

It worked for members from Phetchabun, Phichit and Nong Khai, why not in Ayutthaya.

 

It definitely does NOT work for Pathumthani. They will tell you go apply at your local office. That is the procedure and the only procedure. I know, because I tried going to the Ampur.  They just sent me back. In my case, it had absolutely nothing to do with the official not knowing the rules or not having the equipment. She had a binder full of yellow book applications with hundreds of foreigners. She was very aware of the process. She was simply one of those people who decided to make life difficult. And she was the only gateway to the yellow book.

 

With regard to getting the Portuguese decree translated, the MFA will only certify from English to Thai, so if your country's native language is not English, you must ask your embassy their procedure for certifying an English translation. You then take the certified English translation stamped by the local embassy to the MFA to get the certified Thai translation.

 

I wish the OP luck, but there is not a single answer here. I found out there was no other solution that to give the officer what she wanted, and simply accept it was going to be expensive and time consuming.

 

[Peterw42]

OP, here is the requirements for Pattaya. You could maybe show the guy whats required in the city where they do 1000s of yellow books. 

I presume the decree doc you mention is something to do with divorce, not sure what that has to do with yellow book as you can be single, married, divorced etc, maybe tell the guy that the GF is in fact you landlord, not GF.. Maybe get hold of the Alien registration Act and quote some paragraphs out of that.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Peterw42

[Tanoshi]

31 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

It definitely does NOT work for Pathumthani. They will tell you go apply at your local office. That is the procedure and the only procedure. I know, because I tried going to the Ampur.  They just sent me back. In my case, it had absolutely nothing to do with the official not knowing the rules or not having the equipment. She had a binder full of yellow book applications with hundreds of foreigners. She was very aware of the process. She was simply one of those people who decided to make life difficult. And she was the only gateway to the yellow book.

 

With regard to getting the Portuguese decree translated, the MFA will only certify from English to Thai, so if your country's native language is not English, you must ask your embassy their procedure for certifying an English translation. You then take the certified English translation stamped by the local embassy to the MFA to get the certified Thai translation.

 

I wish the OP luck, but there is not a single answer here. I found out there was no other solution that to give the officer what she wanted, and simply accept it was going to be expensive and time consuming.

 

My definition of an Ampur is District, so not sure where you went.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Tanoshi

[Tanoshi]

15 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, here is the requirements for Pattaya. You could maybe show the guy whats required in the city where they do 1000s of yellow books. 

I presume the decree doc you mention is something to do with divorce, not sure what that has to do with yellow book as you can be single, married, divorced etc, maybe tell the guy that the GF is in fact you landlord, not GF.. Maybe get hold of the Alien registration Act and quote some paragraphs out of that.

Very different than my Province, but at least the requirements are clearly set out.

 

As for the relevant section from the Civil Registration Act (not Alien Registration Act)

“Section 38. The district or local registrar shall issue a household registration
for persons without Thai nationality having been permitted to stay temporarily and
those having been giving leniency for temporary residence in the Thai Kingdom as a
special case in accordance with law on immigration and the declaration of the Cabinet
and their children born within the Thai Kingdom.
Civil Registration Act (2008).pdf

 

Absolutely no requirements for home ownership or marriage, just Immigrations permission to stay.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Tanoshi

[Andrew Dwyer]

OP, here is the requirements for Pattaya. You could maybe show the guy whats required in the city where they do 1000s of yellow books. 
I presume the decree doc you mention is something to do with divorce, not sure what that has to do with yellow book as you can be single, married, divorced etc, maybe tell the guy that the GF is in fact you landlord, not GF.. Maybe get hold of the Alien registration Act and quote some paragraphs out of that.
 

Yes Peter, Decree Nisi is the document of my divorce to a Brazilian.
Exactly, it doesn't really have anything to do with yellow book except in this case the guy maybe seemed a lack of face in my obtaining the documents he first requested without any real difficulties and after having me wait 2 weeks decided to request the decree nisi as surely this would cause me some problems in obtaining a translated, certification !!

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Yes Peter, Decree Nisi is the document of my divorce to a Brazilian.
Exactly, it doesn't really have anything to do with yellow book except in this case the guy maybe seemed a lack of face in my obtaining the documents he first requested without any real difficulties and after having me wait 2 weeks decided to request the decree nisi as surely this would cause me some problems in obtaining a translated, certification !!

You should not have a problem getting the translation certified by the consular affairs department of the MFA. They certify translations for all languages. Take it to a reputable translation service and let them handle the certification for you. They will likely translate it to English first and then to Thai.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Yes Peter, Decree Nisi is the document of my divorce to a Brazilian.
Exactly, it doesn't really have anything to do with yellow book except in this case the guy maybe seemed a lack of face in my obtaining the documents he first requested without any real difficulties and after having me wait 2 weeks decided to request the decree nisi as surely this would cause me some problems in obtaining a translated, certification !!
 

I can feel your frustration. In Pattaya I used my Thai marriage docs as they contained an MFA translation of my name (saved me getting passport translation), but nothing to do with being married as a requirement for yellow book. Maybe the guy at the ampher is confused in that regard.

[roo860]

Bloody hell, decree nisi, that's well out of order, you know sometimes it's better say nothing, even at the British Embassy if you tell them you've never been married, they don't check via the UK before they issue the Affirmation to Marry Certificate.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[NanLaew]

15 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I can feel your frustration. In Pattaya I used my Thai marriage docs as they contained an MFA translation of my name (saved me getting passport translation), but nothing to do with being married as a requirement for yellow book. Maybe the guy at the ampher is confused in that regard.

No, the Amphur guy that's hassling the OP is just being a dick. The fact that the OP was married before has bugger all to do with the application and the Yellow book isn't a fast track to stealing his Thai girlfriends property either. Jobsworths...., they're everywhere.

[observer90210]

Obviously the rules change from one area to another, but in general, is it compulsory to have a 1 year retirement visa to obtain a yellow book,

 

or will a 90 day "O" non immigrant, retirement  visa be enough?

Edited August 1, 2017 by observer90210

[Peterw42]

11 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Obviously the rules change from one area to another, but in general, is it compulsory to have a 1 year retirement visa to obtain a yellow book,

 

or will a 90 day "O" non immigrant, retirement  visa be enough?

The wording of the act is anyone "permitted to stay temporarily" , nothing about length of visa. It would come down to the individual Ampher. One of the documents usually required is a cert of residence from immigration and that may be hard to get on a short stay visa.

Besides all the other paperwork, I cant actually recall the Ampher checking Visa or extension in passport.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Peterw42

[roo860]

 

I had the 90 day one year multi entry when I got mine in Chiang Mai.

 

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[Minnehaha]

I got one and it was a hassle. The wife and I got all the docs incl work permit and they needed a witness. Witness tonsay what? I dont recall. We were married for years by then. 

 

I cant remember last time I used it or rather ... it was useful in that it served a purpose. For drivers license i needed passport. Maybe I had yellow book too but I could prob nust as easily produced another document in my name with address.

I used it at the bank. They got excited. But now all my banking is online.