U.S. cities step up removal of Confederate statues, despite Virginia violence

[webfact]

U.S. cities step up removal of Confederate statues, despite Virginia violence

By Chris Kenning

 

Protesters gather below a monument dedicated to Confederate Major John B. Castleman while demanding that it be removed from the public square in Louisville, Kentucky. REUTERS/Bryan Woolston

 

(Reuters) - Undeterred by violence over the planned removal of a Confederate statue in Charlottesville, Virginia, state and city leaders across various U.S. southern states said this week they would step up efforts to pull such monuments from public spaces.

 

Maryland Governor Larry Hogan on Tuesday joined a growing list of officials seeking to remove statues as a national debate flared anew over whether monuments to the Confederacy are symbols of hate or heritage.

 

Hogan, a Republican, called for taking down a statehouse statue of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Roger B. Taney, who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision affirming slavery.

 

"While we cannot hide from our history – nor should we – the time has come to make clear the difference between properly acknowledging our past and glorifying the darkest chapters of our history," he said in a statement.

 

A rally by white nationalists protesting plans to remove a statue of General Robert E. Lee, commander of the pro-slavery Confederate army in the U.S. Civil War, sparked clashes with anti-racism demonstrators in Charlottesville on Saturday. The rally turned deadly when a car rammed into a crowd of counter-protesters, killing a woman and injuring 19 other people.

 

Saturday's violence appears to have accelerated the drive to remove memorials, flags and other reminders of the Confederate cause.

 

Since then, mayors of Baltimore and Lexington, Kentucky, said they would push ahead with plans to remove statues, while officials in Dallas; Memphis, Tennessee; and Jacksonville, Florida; announced initiatives aimed at taking down Confederate monuments.

 

Some opponents took matters into their own hands. Demonstrators stormed the site of a Confederate monument outside a courthouse in Durham, North Carolina, on Monday and toppled the bronze statue from its base.

 

Durham County Sheriff Mike Andrews said in a statement on Tuesday that his office would seek vandalism charges against those involved.

 

The Civil War involved 11 southern states that seceded from the Union, and most Confederate monuments are located in southern states.

 

The efforts by civil rights groups and others to do away with Confederate monuments gained momentum two years ago after avowed white supremacist Dylann Roof murdered nine African-Americans at a church in Charleston, South Carolina. The shooting rampage ultimately led to the removal of a Confederate flag from the statehouse in Columbia.

 

As of April, at least 60 symbols of the Confederacy had been removed or renamed since 2015, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups.

 

But such efforts have also made Confederate flags and memorials a rallying point for white supremacists and other extreme right groups, according to Ryan Lenz, a spokesman for the centre.

 

Opponents of Confederate memorials view them as an affront to African-Americans and ideals of racial diversity and equality.

Supporters argue they represent an important part of history, honouring those who fought and died for the rebellious Southern states in the Civil War.

 

Carl Jones, chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans, said he would continue to make the case that the monuments are items of historical value.

 

Across the country, 718 Confederate monuments and statues remain, with nearly 300 of them in Georgia, Virginia or North Carolina, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

 

White nationalist leaders plan to hold a rally in Lexington, Kentucky, to oppose the removal of the statues there and are considering a lawsuit, Matthew Heimbach, chairman of the Traditionalist Worker Party, told the Herald-Leader newspaper on Tuesday. The group said it has not set a date for the protest and did not respond to requests for further comment.

 

Some elected leaders pushed back against the trend of removing Confederate monuments.

 

Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin, a Republican, told a WVHU radio show on Tuesday: "I absolutely disagree with this sanitization of history."

 

(Reporting by Chris Kenning; Additional reporting by Steve Gorman; Editing by Colleen Jenkins and Leslie Adler)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-08-16

[canuckamuck]

Why is America still so obsessed with race? I guess the same reason they still use imperial measurements. They should really look out the window and see how the rest of the western nations have moved on.

Edited August 15, 2017 by canuckamuck

[Credo]

13 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Why is America still so obsessed with race? I guess the same reason they still use imperial measurements. They should really look out the window and see how the rest of the western nations have moved on.

There is a small and emboldened group that are obsessed with race.   I have lived in a small, rural, conservative area where the three main racial groups are white, Native American, Hispanic and Black.   Most everyone in the community is employed, although some are on the poorer end of the scale.   I have never seen any racial divide.

 

As for the imperial system, the US is a country based on it.   Counties are broken down by sections which are in squares, 1 mile each.   Intersections and roads in many cities are 1 mile apart.   Much of Canada is the same and the family that I have in Canada, mostly farmers, use the imperial system, not the metric one.   

[canuckamuck]

10 minutes ago, Credo said:

There is a small and emboldened group that are obsessed with race.   I have lived in a small, rural, conservative area where the three main racial groups are white, Native American, Hispanic and Black.   Most everyone in the community is employed, although some are on the poorer end of the scale.   I have never seen any racial divide.

 

As for the imperial system, the US is a country based on it.   Counties are broken down by sections which are in squares, 1 mile each.   Intersections and roads in many cities are 1 mile apart.   Much of Canada is the same and the family that I have in Canada, mostly farmers, use the imperial system, not the metric one.   

I would suggest that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are two of the most racially obsessed people on the planet. Part of the emboldened group you mention, I assume.

I am Canadian, come from a farm, so I know what you say. A lot of farm talk is imperial, But at the same time, those farmers are quite fluent in metric and can usually do quick conversions in their head. Canada switched over to metric 40 years ago.  The main reason we are bilingual in measures is because our giant neighbor makes us to trade in imperial.

[heybuz]

not american but i think the removal of these statues is bullshi---t .the founding fathers of the u.s were slave owners are they next,washington jefferson and such, political correctness gone mad. thousands of these men died for their beliefs on both sides some in the south were against slavery as some in the north were for it but the fought for their side good or bad. a lot of these men had no choice as they were conscripted straight of the boat as my friends great grandfather now buried in australia with a headstone supplied by the us government " soldier of the american civil war" is the inscription.are all who fought for the southern states to have these headstones removed?. how far can it go.

Edited August 16, 2017 by heybuz

[mtls2005]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

Why is America still so obsessed with race?

 

A very complicated subject given the long, long, often bloody history. Not sure "obsession" is the right word though? More like a wound which never really heals and we ignore it and hope it goes away on its own.

 

From the original 3/5ths compromise, to Abolition, Dredd Scott, 13th Amendment, the Civil War, Reconstruction, the KKK, Jim Crow, Separate but Equal, Poll Tax, Civil Rights, Voting Rights, it's been a long and torturous path.

 

Not sure we've ever acknowledged and reconciled this, or our treatment of Native Americans, in a way that allows us to move forward?

 

Trump's use of "birtherism" certainly illustrates that we may have a ways to go yet?

 

For a country founded and based on ideas like Freedom and Equality, we probably should be a bit more ashamed as our lack of progress, and our ability to repeat mistakes of the past?

 

 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

I would suggest that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are two of the most racially obsessed people on the planet. Part of the emboldened group you mention, I assume.

I am Canadian, come from a farm, so I know what you say. A lot of farm talk is imperial, But at the same time, those farmers are quite fluent in metric and can usually do quick conversions in their head. Canada switched over to metric 40 years ago.  The main reason we are bilingual in measures is because our giant neighbor makes us to trade in imperial.

 

Jackson and Sharpton would both become irrelevant if they didn't stir up racial discord.  While I'm sure there is a tinge of authenticity in their tirades, I'd follow the money and put them in the same basket as people who rant on YouTube to garner hits to feed their money spinning blogs.  No controversy, no power and no money rolling in.  But you can't judge the masses by the nature of a couple of muck rakers.

 

[kamahele]

48 minutes ago, heybuz said:

not american but i think the removal of these statues is bullshi---t .the founding fathers of the u.s were slave owners are they next,washington jefferson and such, political correctness gone mad. thousands of these men died for their beliefs on both sides some in the south were against slavery as some in the north were for it but the fought for their side good or bad. a lot of these men had no choice as they were conscripted straight of the boat as my friends great grandfather now buried in australia with a headstone supplied by the us government " soldier of the american civil war" is the inscription.are all who fought for the southern states to have these headstones removed?. how far can it go.

The great majority of monuments to the confederacy were put in place for the sole purpose to try and  keep blacks in their place and promote white supremacy. Most were installed during the 20th century and not right after the war. These monuments also glorify traitors who made war against their own country in order to keep humans enslaved. Why would we have statues commemorating them? 

[kamahele]

31 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Jackson and Sharpton would both become irrelevant if they didn't stir up racial discord.  While I'm sure there is a tinge of authenticity in their tirades, I'd follow the money and put them in the same basket as people who rant on YouTube to garner hits to feed their money spinning blogs.  No controversy, no power and no money rolling in.  But you can't judge the masses by the nature of a couple of muck rakers.

 

I'm not quite sure why after a white nationalist mowed down a group of people with a car, killing one, you would mention your views of two black civil rights leaders who quite frankly saw better days in the 80's. How can one associate two black men who you may believe have big mouths and may be controversial with the KKK, an organization created to terrorize and kill black Americans.  Maybe I'm missing your point?

[mtls2005]

2 minutes ago, kamahele said:

Maybe I'm missing your point?

 

How can you miss it? It's right their at the peak of his hood.

 

 

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, kamahele said:

I'm not quite sure why after a white nationalist mowed down a group of people with a car, killing one, you would mention your views of two black civil rights leaders who quite frankly saw better days in the 80's. How can one associate two black men who you may believe have big mouths and may be controversial with the KKK, an organization created to terrorize and kill black Americans.  Maybe I'm missing your point?

 

You're missing the content of the post I was responding to, which specifically mentioned those 2 men on a path in the thread about Americans being race obsessed.  My point is that they aren't representative of all Americans, or even the majority.  They have agendas which are their own, and publicity apparatuses for the purposes of getting them out in front of the public.

 

Edit:  And I would also point out that high profile white supremacists play the same game- sensationalizing their message to get the press coverage- but that's not the post I was responding to.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by impulse

[canuckamuck]

45 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

A very complicated subject given the long, long, often bloody history. Not sure "obsession" is the right word though? More like a wound which never really heals and we ignore it and hope it goes away on its own.

 

From the original 3/5ths compromise, to Abolition, Dredd Scott, 13th Amendment, the Civil War, Reconstruction, the KKK, Jim Crow, Separate but Equal, Poll Tax, Civil Rights, Voting Rights, it's been a long and torturous path.

 

Not sure we've ever acknowledged and reconciled this, or our treatment of Native Americans, in a way that allows us to move forward?

 

Trump's use of "birtherism" certainly illustrates that we may have a ways to go yet?

 

For a country founded and based on ideas like Freedom and Equality, we probably should be a bit more ashamed as our lack of progress, and our ability to repeat mistakes of the past?

 

 

Yes but I have news for you. Every other country in the world had slaves too. 

[impulse]

3 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Yes but I have news for you. Every other country in the world had slaves too. 

 

I'd also point out that the settlers didn't do much to the Native American tribes that they hadn't been doing to each other for thousands of years.  They were just better at it, having better technology, superior numbers and some resistant to imported diseases.  Just like almost every patch of ground in the entire world has changed hands by force.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was despicable.  But no more despicable than what the Lakota did to drive their enemies out of the Black Hills- and hundreds of other examples across the continent and the centuries.

 

[StrandedBusinessPerson]

I was a teenager during the civil rights movement, living in NYC when my parents decided to move upstate to Poughkeepsie. On my  first day of high school, there a race riot in the parking lot. People of color on one side, whites on another - with a row of police in the middle and lots of bottles, rocks and slurs being hurled in the air. 

 

The simmering (and sometimes boiling over) of American racism was omnipresent throughout my college days and work career. From the Black Panthers to Timothy McVeigh, and all shades in-between, the unrest was always just below the surface. And with all of that, worrying about the symbolism of statues or the confederate flag was the least of anyone's worries. If you were black or gay or even jewish, you had to worry more about being strung up in a tree on a back country road, and "the south" was always considered another country until it was finally paved over and they put up (COSCO) parking lots. 

 

In 2000, I left the USA for S. Asia, and I never looked back - I retired early from American racism, corporate corruption and insane political policies - only to move to another version of the same programme. Only here in Asia, no one is bothered by figurines of century-old rulers, even if they were despots. Political statues are park decorations, and not much more. 

 

However, history and current events makes me wonder if any statues are now safe. From Hatra to these here in Thailand,  statues seem to have become pinnacles of hostility.

 

As I watched misguided millennials pull this one down, I am reminded of just how fracked up the human race really is - obsessed with minutia as everything else is falling apart. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[heybuz]

14 minutes ago, kamahele said:

The great majority of monuments to the confederacy were put in place for the sole purpose to try and  keep blacks in their place and promote white supremacy. Most were installed during the 20th century and not right after the war. These monuments also glorify traitors who made war against their own country in order to keep humans enslaved. Why would we have statues commemorating them? 

thanks for info i thought they would have been there for some time,as for being traitors i reserve my judgement as the union is an amalgamation of sovereign states who have rights and were exercising those rights as they saw fit at the time. i am not on the right of the political scene,far from it my political leanings are to the far left of the american democratic party.

 

[StrandedBusinessPerson]

27 minutes ago, kamahele said:

The great majority of monuments to the confederacy were put in place for the sole purpose to try and  keep blacks in their place and promote white supremacy. Most were installed during the 20th century and not right after the war. These monuments also glorify traitors who made war against their own country in order to keep humans enslaved. Why would we have statues commemorating them? 

This is utter nonsense and fake news. Most monuments were put up after the war, and were put there to commemorate those who died during the civil war - on both sides. Just like this one, statues were put up by surviving relatives and communities who knew those that died in service to their country, whatever that was at the moment. Should we tear down a Gen. Custer monument in an effort to make ourselves feel better about ourselves hundreds of years later? 

[Rancid]

Not sure every Confederate soldier was fighting to preserve slavery, more likely just defending their homeland. Seems USA is on the latest PC authoritarian push to now erase history, didn't the Nazis do something similar with book burning, or the Khmer Rouge also for that matter. Both were nasty totalitarian fanatics, funny how the PC brigade are so ignorant of history that they don't recognize themselves for the oppressors and dictators of thought that they are?

[LannaGuy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

 

18 Presidents owned slaves

[halloween]

Save us all from the politically correct. Once they adopt a POV, no matter how one-sided or illogical, any body who opposes them will be branded a bigot, racist, fascist, nazi or similar perjorative label.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

Yes but I have news for you. Every other country in the world had slaves too. 

But they don't celebrate the people who fought to preserve it.

[Pdaz]

2 hours ago, heybuz said:

not american but i think the removal of these statues is bullshi---t .the founding fathers of the u.s were slave owners are they next,washington jefferson and such, political correctness gone mad. thousands of these men died for their beliefs on both sides some in the south were against slavery as some in the north were for it but the fought for their side good or bad. a lot of these men had no choice as they were conscripted straight of the boat as my friends great grandfather now buried in australia with a headstone supplied by the us government " soldier of the american civil war" is the inscription.are all who fought for the southern states to have these headstones removed?. how far can it go.

Yes. And  even if times and values have changed the statues are there to remind us of the past. They aren't there to glorify it but to ensure we don't make similar mistakes in the future. If we whitewash the past how can we learn from it ? 

PC Liberal BS gone mad. 

[LannaGuy]

42 minutes ago, halloween said:

Save us all from the politically correct. Once they adopt a POV, no matter how one-sided or illogical, any body who opposes them will be branded a bigot, racist, fascist, nazi or similar perjorative label.

 

 

At last we agree. PC is a scourge on the modern world.

[LannaGuy]

11 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

But they don't celebrate the people who fought to preserve it.

Washington had 317 slaves and Jefferson 600 are they not 'celebrated'? and don't say "yes but not for slavery" as that's disingenuous. 

[ilostmypassword]

35 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Washington had 317 slaves and Jefferson 600 are they not 'celebrated'? and don't say "yes but not for slavery" as that's disingenuous. 

Just because you say it's disingenuous doesn't make it so. If Lee had not been the commander of the Confederate forces, what grounds would there be to celebrate him? Washington and Jefferson are celebrated for their other achievement that had nothing to do with slavery. Lee is commemorated because he defended it.

Edited August 16, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[mtls2005]

The Charlottesville City council voted to remove the statue, in February (2017). That decision is being challenged in the courts.

 

 

My vote would be to create a "theme park", maybe in Alabama, where all these statues could be re-located and admired by those who wish to do so.

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[iReason]

2 hours ago, StrandedBusinessPerson said:

Just like this one, statues were put up by surviving relatives and communities who knew those that died in service to their country,

whatever that was at the moment.

 

This one was erected in 1924.

[canuckamuck]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

But they don't celebrate the people who fought to preserve it.

I am certain there are numerous statues in the world of leaders who were monsters, I am not going to do the research though.

The point is, why can't America move forward on this issue?

[LannaGuy]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Just because you say it's disingenuous doesn't make it so. If Lee had not been the commander of the Confederate forces, what grounds would there be to celebrate him? Washington and Jefferson are celebrated for their other achievement that had nothing to do with slavery. Lee is commemorated because he defended it.

My point was purely about statues and history is history. If they wish to tear down statues than there is not a good argument for not tearing down Washington's and Jefferson's or put up a plague?  'this statue only honors part of their lives and ignores they owned slaves'

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

My point was purely about statues and history is history. If they wish to tear down statues than there is not a good argument for not tearing down Washington's and Jefferson's or put up a plague?  'this statue only honors part of their lives and ignores they owned slaves'

As I will point out again, Washington and Jefferson are not honored for ther possession of slaves. They are honored for their many other achievements.. The only reason Robert E. Lee had statues erected in his honor is because he was the commander of the confederate forces.