Too Many Non-Alcoholics in AA

[MrPatrickThai]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:31 PM, Neeranam said:

IMHO, the recovering alcoholic is still suffering from untreated alcoholism. The recovered alcoholic is not suffering anyone.

You got it in 1! 

 

I am a recovered alcoholic. 

 

 

http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/recovering-alcoholic-or-recovered-alcoholic/

Benefits of Using the Recovered Alcoholic Label

If people choose to consider themselves to be recovered alcoholics it may be beneficial in a number of ways:

* It reinforces the idea that the addiction is over and the individual is now ready to get on with their life.
* When people enter sobriety there problems are no longer related to alcohol but with daily living. The recovered label reinforces the idea that the current problems are due to life and not alcohol.
* Those people who have been addicted to alcohol for years will already have wasted too much time focused on their drug. They have no wish to be defined now by their previous addiction.
* The individual is no longer being controlled by alcohol so it is reasonable for them to claim to be recovered.
* The label of recovering alcoholic is mostly associated with the disease theory of alcoholism. There are many people who do not subscribe to this theory so prefer the word recovered.
* This label is more empowering for the individual. They have put the past behind them and can now concentrate on finding success in life.

 

Dangers of Using the Recovering Alcoholic Label

The disadvantages of the recovering alcoholic label include:

* The individual may be encouraged to blame all their problems on their alcoholism. They may fail to realize that every human has similar problems to deal with.
* It can mean that people begin to divide the world into us and them. They may start to believe that those outside the fellowship can’t understand them because they are not recovering alcoholics.
* Some would claim that by continuing to view themselves as alcoholic the individual is disempowering themselves.
* The fact that the individual still considers themselves to be an alcoholic might be used as justification to relapse. The individual can claim that it is normal for them to relapse because they are an alcoholic.

[superglue]

Pedantic.

[MuntyC0re]

luckily I don't need these meetings anymore

[MrPatrickThai]

8 minutes ago, MuntyC0re said:

luckily I don't need these meetings anymore

Why, what happened? 

[Dagnabbit]

On 10/9/2017 at 11:11 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Good points Wilson, thanks for sharing.

 

The message I'm trying to get across is not the message you think it is.I am not criticizing AA, as an entity but giving the reasons why it has a terrible 'success' rate these days and IMHO, we have to save it. 

We HAVE to tell the "my weedwhacker broke today" guys to shut up and talk about recovery.

AA has changed so much since those words were written. 80% or so success rate then compared to 5 % these days. 

If you want to know why AA has a low success rate - look in the mirror.

 

Self-righteous, judgmental members like you, looking down on people looking for help, thinking this is some sort of exclusive club.

 

Being a progressive condition, someone who goes to AA can be anywhere along that path. 

 

 

[ding]

got today!

[superglue]

You've got to to give it away to keep it.

[ding]

Anyone want my day???

[superglue]

Keep drinking & one day you may change your mind.

[superglue]

On 11/21/2017 at 5:03 PM, MrPatrickThai said:

Why, what happened? 

Miss meetings, pick up pots.

[superglue]

Lift a skirt, have a slip.

[Kim1950]

On 12/10/2017 at 10:42 AM, Dagnabbit said:

If you want to know why AA has a low success rate - look in the mirror.

 

Self-righteous, judgmental members like you, looking down on people looking for help, thinking this is some sort of exclusive club.

 

Being a progressive condition, someone who goes to AA can be anywhere along that path. 

 

 

There was a time when others and myself questioned my use of Alcohol or Substance Abuse. Not that it matters. I went to my first open meeting. I was not welcome. On Meds, leave. In professional therapy, leave. Each member, showing their coins of years of sobriety as medals. Nobody asked me anything, who I was. How am I feeling. It was a private club. Forget this.

 

I went to other meeting and some were more welcoming than others. So, there is no standard of clinical behavioral practice at AA. 1935 is long time ago without much change. It takes work to find the right group and they do have their own social-economic dynamics. At the time when person is fragile, vulnerable, and maybe seeing their life in free-fall. They are asking for help. Not a hard induction interview. The rejection does not help.

[Wilson Smith]

Love and tolerance of others is our code.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 12/10/2017 at 10:42 PM, Dagnabbit said:

If you want to know why AA has a low success rate - look in the mirror.

 

Self-righteous, judgmental members like you, looking down on people looking for help, thinking this is some sort of exclusive club.

 

Being a progressive condition, someone who goes to AA can be anywhere along that path. 

 

 

Are you not being self-righteous and judgmental here, as well as being insulting?

 

Alcoholism is not a "condition" it is a disease. 

 

I agree that newcomers should be ALL welcome but if they can't honestly do step one and are just there to stop drinking and stay for years by using the fellowship(and not the steps), talking about their day at meeting, not needing God, having no character defects, refusing to go on the 12th step list, etc, then tell them to not share at meetings. It IS an exclusive club, for ALCOHOLICS, not some poor guy who was abused as a kid(for example) and drank to escape the feelings, never had cravings for alcohol, withdrawals , etc and doesn't understand the alcoholic but is lonely and like to make friends with the nice people in AA. Kick him out that door as soon as he comes in -   he is dangerous - thinking he is qualified to give advice to alcoholics.  Heavy drinkers are welcome in AA but not welcome to speak at meetings. 

[Wilson Smith]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Are you not being self-righteous and judgmental here, as well as being insulting?

 

Alcoholism is not a "condition" it is a disease. 

 

I agree that newcomers should be ALL welcome but if they can't honestly do step one and are just there to stop drinking and stay for years by using the fellowship(and not the steps), talking about their day at meeting, not needing God, having no character defects, refusing to go on the 12th step list, etc, then tell them to not share at meetings. It IS an exclusive club, for ALCOHOLICS, not some poor guy who was abused as a kid(for example) and drank to escape the feelings, never had cravings for alcohol,

withdrawals , etc and doesn't understand the alcoholic but is lonely and like to make friends with the nice people in AA. Kick him out that door as soon as he comes in -   he is dangerous - thinking he is qualified to give advice to alcoholics.  Heavy drinkers are welcome in AA but not welcome to speak at meetings. 

 

[Neeranam]

I think in the sticks many guys drink more because of boredom(of the wife lol), regret they built that house, etc.they come to AA to meet people. Should they be allowed in? 

I think no, but they do through the tradition that says, three only requirement is a desire to stop drinking.

I've experienced guys coming to AA meetings that were certainly not alcoholics, but no big deal, I learnt tolerance from them.

In the Thai meetings, they come for all kind of reasons, but are accepted as the fellowship is still quite young, but that is a whole other topic.

[Kim1950]

7 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Are you not being self-righteous and judgmental here, as well as being insulting?

 

Alcoholism is not a "condition" it is a disease. 

 

I agree that newcomers should be ALL welcome but if they can't honestly do step one and are just there to stop drinking and stay for years by using the fellowship(and not the steps), talking about their day at meeting, not needing God, having no character defects, refusing to go on the 12th step list, etc, then tell them to not share at meetings. It IS an exclusive club, for ALCOHOLICS, not some poor guy who was abused as a kid(for example) and drank to escape the feelings, never had cravings for alcohol, withdrawals , etc and doesn't understand the alcoholic but is lonely and like to make friends with the nice people in AA. Kick him out that door as soon as he comes in -   he is dangerous - thinking he is qualified to give advice to alcoholics.  Heavy drinkers are welcome in AA but not welcome to speak at meetings. 

In medical terms, Alcoholism is an Alcohol use disorder. A person could be lonely, abused as a child, or have other mental health issues and still be your 'Alcoholic' and also have mental health issues. AA is not a clinically licensed or certified practice for an Alcohol use disorder. As a loosely organized fellowship, each group has every right to determine it's membership. You might consider therapy in addition to AA. You seem angry and make rash judgments about people 'at the door ', kick them out. You can have your club. No place of fellowship. I found other places for help. Be well.

[Wilson Smith]

12 hours ago, Kim1950 said:

In medical terms, Alcoholism is an Alcohol use disorder. A person could be lonely, abused as a child, or have other mental health issues and still be your 'Alcoholic' and also have mental health issues. AA is not a clinically licensed or certified practice for an Alcohol use disorder. As a loosely organized fellowship, each group has every right to determine it's membership. You might consider therapy in addition to AA. You seem angry and make rash judgments about people 'at the door ', kick them out. You can have your club. No place of fellowship. I found other places for help. Be well.

Luckily I just had to admit I was powerless over alcohol and not figure out about diseases, allergy, etc. Figuring that out does not solve the problem. I think our literature says we quit the debating society on which came first the chicken or the egg. Mr. Patrick is a classic 2 stepper that is described in the 12 x 12 hence he is a result of half measures.  

[gerryBScot]

I remain indebted to those people who said to me: keep coming back, you're better off in here thinking you are an alcoholic than out there thinking you are not. If I had been interrogated about whether I had experienced delirium tremens and dismissed because I wasn't sure, then in all likelihood I would be dead today. The DTs might be a clinical indicator of chronic  alcoholic dependency, similar to Korsakoff's Syndrome and other indicators of chronic alcoholism, and therefore of considerable use to the medical community in terms of diagnosis and prognosis, but these only are indicators of chronic alcoholism, ( ...and there are others), not requirements for membership of AA. I was advised to focus on my alcoholism and my character defects, not other peoples'.

[StreetCowboy]

On 12/14/2017 at 2:09 PM, Neeranam said:

I think in the sticks many guys drink more because of boredom(of the wife lol), regret they built that house, etc.they come to AA to meet people. Should they be allowed in? 

I think no, but they do through the tradition that says, three only requirement is a desire to stop drinking.

I've experienced guys coming to AA meetings that were certainly not alcoholics, but no big deal, I learnt tolerance from them.

In the Thai meetings, they come for all kind of reasons, but are accepted as the fellowship is still quite young, but that is a whole other topic.

It's really not for you or I to label someone an alcoholic or not an alcoholic.  

Although the only 'official' requirement is 'a desire to stop drinking', implicitly there is also "....and a difficulty in doing so'.

 

AA is not supposed to be nice, its not supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be hard and challenging; but hopefully better than drinking.

 

I dropped out when my desire to stop drinking was not enough.  I understand enough that when I REALLY want to stop drinking, I'll know where to go, but until that time, I would be wasting my time, and everyone else's, and not helping their sobriety

 

SC

[impulse]

6 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

It's really not for you or I to label someone an alcoholic or not an alcoholic.  

Although the only 'official' requirement is 'a desire to stop drinking', implicitly there is also "....and a difficulty in doing so'.

 

AA is not supposed to be nice, its not supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be hard and challenging; but hopefully better than drinking.

 

If you're not having fun after a few months, you're not doing it right.  Or you're not going to the right meetings.  Yeah, it's hard work and it can be challenging.  But I've had more fun with AA people than I ever had in a bar.   It does take effort above and beyond doing the steps to keep that kind of camaraderie going.  But that's another topic for a different thread...

 

Sadly, in locations where the AA meetings are few and far between, they can all take on the same personality of a few dominant members.  That may be a good thing, or maybe not, depending way too much on personalities instead of principles. 

 

In a city like Los Angeles, there are thousands of meetings each week to choose from.  Those old codgers (and young ones, too) can't get around to keep their thumb on all of them.  So anyone who doesn't like the flavor of one meeting can try out different meetings until they find one that fits.  Not so much in Thailand...  Not to say that it's bad.  It is what it is- a small community that suits some very well.

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

I have never been in AA but I was in Al Anon many years back, which as you may know is for friends and families for alcoholics,, specifically those whose lives are affected by someone else's alcoholism or drug use.

 

Quite a few people came to it with only the faintest of excuses e.g. a distant relative who was an alkie or used drugs, a former friend who drank etc.

 

It was quiet clear that they were nto currently affected by anyone's addiction, they simply wanted the program ...because it is a great program, for anyone, whether alcoholic/ drug user /friend or relative of one or none of the above.

 

While it has some specific applications to the process of stopping drinking or coming off another addiction, it is also applicable to the human condition in general. In fact, I think it is the best and arguably the first genuine spiritual movement to develop in the West in the past 2000 years.
 

 

Al-Anon was quite tolerant of these folks and their presence was not, IMO, ever a problem for those who were genuinely struggling with the effects of someone else's addiction -- because their underlying issues. and challenges  were really not all that different. 

 

I personally practice Buddhism but found that the 12 steps not only did nto conflict but greatly augmented my Buddhist practice and indeed, helped fill in some gaps/areas which the Buddhist teachings , oriented as they are to Asian cultures, did not fully address, at least not in a way that worked for me as a Westerner steeped in an ethos of individualism and excessive emphasis on self will.

 

I can understand why AA, with its specific focus on helping people stop drinking, might be less accommodating. But I do hope that someone sets up a 12 step program for the general public, sooner rather than later, as the need and demand is there.

 

I would suggest that those non-alcoholics coming to AA are doing so for reasons that may be much deeper than loneliness etc. They may be in spiritual pain (or more accurately, aware of their spiritual pain - because we are all in it, even those of use who deny the existence of matters spiritual) and seeking a path.

[Kim1950]

On 12/14/2017 at 8:47 PM, Wilson Smith said:

Which came first the chicken or the egg.

Neither, it was evolution to where we are today. I am all in for admission to Alcoholism and AA. However, we are all not the same, different genetics, experiences, or social economic demographics. For example, in the U.S. the Veterans Admistration would in severe cases, use involuntary hospitalization, a medical and psychological evaluation, use of cognitive therapy and maybe prescribed drugs. They would also recommend AA or Rational Recovery,  Mindfullness Meditation which they sponsor.  Even maybe use all these paths to recovery. They initially help you, then you own your life. We have evolved. Also, like I did, they would recommended to try different AA groups at different locations. You can't claim they are all the same. They are not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wilson Smith]

On 12/30/2017 at 7:13 PM, Kim1950 said:

Neither, it was evolution to where we are today. I am all in for admission to Alcoholism and AA. However, we are all not the same, different genetics, experiences, or social economic demographics. For example, in the U.S. the Veterans Admistration would in severe cases, use involuntary hospitalization, a medical and psychological evaluation, use of cognitive therapy and maybe prescribed drugs. They would also recommend AA or Rational Recovery,  Mindfullness Meditation which they sponsor.  Even maybe use all these paths to recovery. They initially help you, then you own your life. We have evolved. Also, like I did, they would recommended to try different AA groups at different locations. You can't claim they are all the same. They are not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the point is it does not matter why you are an alcoholic, it an is just that you are an alcoholic. Knowing about the problem does not solve the problem. 

[MrPatrickThai]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:47 AM, Wilson Smith said:

Luckily I just had to admit I was powerless over alcohol and not figure out about diseases, allergy, etc. Figuring that out does not solve the problem. I think our literature says we quit the debating society on which came first the chicken or the egg. Mr. Patrick is a classic 2 stepper that is described in the 12 x 12 hence he is a result of half measures.  

Please explain why you think I am a classic 2 stepper?

 

I thought that was someone who did only step 1 and went to meetings.

 

 

 

 

[gerryBScot]

25 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Please explain why you think I am a classic 2 stepper?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happy New Year Mr P T I know your question is not addressed to me but for what it's worth ... I would never challenge anyone's assertion that they are an alcoholic simply because I don't want to feel any sense of responsibility if they carry on drinking and die.  I might disagree with your approach but I have no doubt I am an alcoholic and that you are one too. Hope you have a great year of sober days. See you out there.

[Wilson Smith]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Please explain why you think I am a classic 2 stepper?

 

I thought that was someone who did only step 1 and went to meetings.

 

 

 

 

"First Step and that part of the Twelfth where we “carry the message.” In A.A. slang, that blissful state is known as “two-stepping" (page 113 in the 12x12)

 

Hence a man with such a resentment about AA or AA meetings goes on a rant and months later has still refused to sit down and write an inventory about. Refuses to see his part. Skimming step 3, your will, step 4 no inventory, step 5 (have a sponsor?) Step 6 admit our defects, step 7 willing to ask for the defect to be removed, step 8 for the harm your post may have caused someone, step 9 making right for your wrongs, Step 10 (see 3-9), Step 11 do you have conscience contact or just running on self will determined to save AA from all the not "real" alcoholics in AA meeting (check step 3 again). Have you trying the 11 step prayer? That would be a great place to start.

 

FYI the meetings are not the program and the spiritual awakening comes as a result of going the steps (all 12). Meetings are step 12. Looks like you are carrying the wrong message! 

[MrPatrickThai]

4 hours ago, Wilson Smith said:

"First Step and that part of the Twelfth where we “carry the message.” In A.A. slang, that blissful state is known as “two-stepping" (page 113 in the 12x12)

 

Hence a man with such a resentment about AA or AA meetings goes on a rant and months later has still refused to sit down and write an inventory about. Refuses to see his part. Skimming step 3, your will, step 4 no inventory, step 5 (have a sponsor?) Step 6 admit our defects, step 7 willing to ask for the defect to be removed, step 8 for the harm your post may have caused someone, step 9 making right for your wrongs, Step 10 (see 3-9), Step 11 do you have conscience contact or just running on self will determined to save AA from all the not "real" alcoholics in AA meeting (check step 3 again). Have you trying the 11 step prayer? That would be a great place to start.

 

FYI the meetings are not the program and the spiritual awakening comes as a result of going the steps (all 12). Meetings are step 12. Looks like you are carrying the wrong message! 

lol -  talk about taking someone's inventory - lol

 

You are assuming  a lot! I don't have resentments these days for long. 

 

A disco drunk telling a real drunk how to work the program.

 

To answer question re 11th step prayer - every morning for years, it's the first prayer I read. So please, just save your rant.

 

Lol  - I just noticed you live in the spiritual Mecca of Pattaya. There for the beaches - hypocrite.

[Kadilo]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

lol -  talk about taking someone's inventory - lol

 

You are assuming  a lot! I don't have resentments these days for long. 

 

A disco drunk telling a real drunk how to work the program.

 

To answer question re 11th step prayer - every morning for years, it's the first prayer I read. So please, just save your rant.

 

Lol  - I just noticed you live in the spiritual Mecca of Pattaya. There for the beaches - hypocrite.

You have just proved his points imo

“A disco drunk telling a real drunk how to work the program.”

“Lol  - I just noticed you live in the spiritual Mecca of Pattaya. There for the beaches - hypocrite.”

 

Disgraceful. 

[gerryBScot]

I'm not going to get involved in slanging other people here. But I need to thank Mr PT for the reference to the Eleventh Step prayer which had me googling it. I always knew it is as the prayer of St Francis. However what a truly beautiful prayer and timely mention of it because my prayer life needs something new. And I love that term  'disco drunk' -  wonderful, truly wonderful. The power of words!