May seeks Florentine renaissance for deadlocked Brexit talks

[dunroaming]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

I am sorry to have to say this because I quite like Mrs May but yesterday  as a result of her concessions we lost control of the leave process when we desperately need to take control of it

We need a new, more aggressive, hit squad for negotiations.

.

 

You can only take a strong and more aggressive position if you are in a strong position to negotiate.  The UK isn't in a strong position hence Mays submissive speech to the EU. 

 

At the end of the transition period, then what?  Could be we have to ask for an extension of that or maybe we finally fall off of the cliff edge.  Just kicking the tin can further down the road at the moment.

[aright]

1 minute ago, dunroaming said:

You can only take a strong and more aggressive position if you are in a strong position to negotiate.  The UK isn't in a strong position hence Mays submissive speech to the EU. 

 

At the end of the transition period, then what?  Could be we have to ask for an extension of that or maybe we finally fall off of the cliff edge.  Just kicking the tin can further down the road at the moment.

My own personal opinion is we are perceived as being in a weak position because we haven't been loud enough. Their weakness is they export more to us than we export to them . We are the largest purchasers of Mercedes in Europe; I'm sure they wouldn't want that trade or any other exports jeopardized.

If what you say is true that our position is very weak because they are not prepared, in a shared manner, to accommodate both our needs   I agree we should leave the table immediately....pointless continuing.

 

[dunroaming]

15 minutes ago, aright said:

My own personal opinion is we are perceived as being in a weak position because we haven't been loud enough. Their weakness is they export more to us than we export to them . We are the largest purchasers of Mercedes in Europe; I'm sure they wouldn't want that trade or any other exports jeopardized.

If what you say is true that our position is very weak because they are not prepared, in a shared manner, to accommodate both our needs   I agree we should leave the table immediately....pointless continuing.

 

We can't leave the table immediately.  That is part of the problem.  As for the Mercedes sales, their rising markets are in Asia and after the economic hit we will take with a hard Brexit I suspect the sales in the UK will fall considerably anyway.  When you say they export more to us than we do to them remember that we are one small country importing from 27 countries so not a level playing field at all.  Between them (I know that Germany is the biggest exporter through the car sales) they can absorb the lost trade far easier than we can.

[aright]

Why can't we leave the table immediately? Why are we allowing the agenda to be driven by the EU? Why aren't we telling the EU no deal means no financial settlement. Why aren't we showing them some gonads.

In fairness the current negotiators maybe are saying these things but we are not aware of them.

We have goods and services that we currently sell worldwide. They sell because people want them .That's not going to change when we leave the UK The world isn't going to stop buying Rolls Royce engines because we aren't in the EU. If you have  goods and services the world wants you don't need trade deals. The sales are driven by  market needs.

[dunroaming]

23 minutes ago, aright said:

Why can't we leave the table immediately? Why are we allowing the agenda to be driven by the EU? Why aren't we telling the EU no deal means no financial settlement. Why aren't we showing them some gonads.

In fairness the current negotiators maybe are saying these things but we are not aware of them.

We have goods and services that we currently sell worldwide. They sell because people want them .That's not going to change when we leave the UK The world isn't going to stop buying Rolls Royce engines because we aren't in the EU. If you have  goods and services the world wants you don't need trade deals. The sales are driven by  market needs.

The sad truth is that if we walk away several things will happen.  The pound will fall through the floor making our imports  ludicrously expensive.  Secondly we would be shunned by all the EU countries and that would help to cripple our economy. Then we would lose our car manufacturing sector that is owned in part by the Germans.  We would be seen as cancerous and almost certainly lose the Japanese car business as well.  It would be economic suicide and it isn't going to happen.

 

If we could have just walked away we would have some time ago.  It is not an option and everyone in the cabinet knows it including Boris, Davis and Hamilton.  We are stuck and whichever way we jump is going to cost the UK very dearly indeed.  As a Brit living in the UK I am sick to the stomach over this disaster.  Not for me but for the young people.  We are screwing up their future and they don't deserve that.

[Khun Han]

Not putting your eggs in one basket is the golden rule of business. UK inc is in this mess because lazy/corrupt/freeloading/blackmailed (take your pick) politicians have been breaking this rule for over forty years. This problem is only going to become more acute the longer we stay in the huge scam that is the EU. We need to bite the bullet and get out now before it becomes impossible to do so.

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, aright said:

Unfortunately the UK has a deficit of £50billion which requires cuts not so much to bring it down significantly but just to keep it in control. Those who don't like fiscal responsibility can stop the cuts by voting for Jeremy Corbyn at the next election in that way you can pass a larger deficit  to your grand children.

£50billion, that would be nice.
The national debt (deficit) of the UK is 1800 Billion Pounds.
Or around 39.899,39 USD ‎(2016) per head.

[aright]

8 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

£50billion, that would be nice.
The national debt (deficit) of the UK is 1800 Billion Pounds.
Or around 39.899,39 USD ‎(2016) per head.

 

 

The National Debt  and Deficit are different

These are next years projections

 

 

What is the UK National Deficit?

For the fiscal year ending in March 2018:
The “current budget deficit*” is estimated to be £18.2 billion.
The difference between spending (including capital expenditure) and revenue is estimated to be £69.8 billion.
 

What is the UK National Debt?

At Budget time in March 2018:
The UK National Debt is estimated to be £1.83 trillion.

[dunroaming]

39 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

We need to bite the bullet and get out now before it becomes impossible to do so.

Too late.  The bullet would blow the whole country apart.  The Brits are not stupid enough to do that.

[Thongkorn]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

£50billion, that would be nice.
The national debt (deficit) of the UK is 1800 Billion Pounds.
Or around 39.899,39 USD ‎(2016) per head.

 I have never had credit, a part from a mortgage which was paid of 10 years ago, Don't have a credit card,  borrowed £500 back in 1971, Yet the government keep saying every household is in debit, 

Done everything the Government advised, Own your own House, have money in the Bank and have pensions, 

Like most people, the pensions have been devalued, Interest rates are non existent,

I should have just pisst it up the wall and gone on Benefits like  most 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Thongkorn

[tomacht8]

Is already a bad theatrical act.
Brexit is economically a lose-lose situation, in which each party tries to win at the expense of the other party.
The negotiations are all about damage limitation.
Brexit as dead birth.
Losers in the global world competition:Total Europe, including the UK with its independence sausage.
.
 

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

Too late.  The bullet would blow the whole country apart.  The Brits are not stupid enough to do that.

 

 

 

Oh?

 

i was hoping that we were..... a 

[dunroaming]

15 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

 I have never had credit, a part from a mortgage which was paid of 10 years ago, Don't have a credit card,  borrowed £500 back in 1971, Yet the government keep saying every household is in debit, 

Done everything the Government advised, Own your own House, have money in the Bank and have pensions, 

Like most people, the pensions have been devalued, Interest rates are non existent,

I should have just pisst it up the wall and gone on Benefits like  most 

Seems like you did all the right things and things turned out well for you.  I am sure the vast majority of people on benefits would give their right arm to have what you have.  No debt and not even a credit card shows you are very careful with your money.  However whereas you don't have any debts most people out there do.  Often for a car or mortgage (which you had until ten years ago) or school fees or holidays etc. etc.  We live in a world where people don't save up for things anymore because they are constantly being sold credit.

 

 

[dunroaming]

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

Oh?

 

i was hoping that we were..... a 

Not the Brits who live in the UK or have kids or relatives living there.  We are all stubborn but eventually you have to face reality.

[Thongkorn]

Just now, dunroaming said:

Seems like you did all the right things and things turned out well for you.  I am sure the vast majority of people on benefits would give their right arm to have what you have.  No debt and not even a credit card shows you are very careful with your money.  However whereas you don't have any debts most people out there do.  Often for a car or mortgage (which you had until ten years ago) or school fees or holidays etc. etc.  We live in a world where people don't save up for things anymore because they are constantly being sold credit.

 

 

I gave my right arm, I worked hard ,  Unlucky enough  or lucky enough to have a Father who was a con man , so i could never get any loans, so learned that you have to save up to pay for things and not just pay later, The |Government should stop Banks and credit card companies giving 5 times their yearly income. But the Government wants debit.

[tomacht8]

43 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

I gave my right arm, I worked hard ,  Unlucky enough  or lucky enough to have a Father who was a con man , so i could never get any loans, so learned that you have to save up to pay for things and not just pay later, The |Government should stop Banks and credit card companies giving 5 times their yearly income. But the Government wants debit.

It is unfortunately so, that people who make debts stay financially better, than the people who only spend what they have as income.
The politicians of nearly all countries in the world spend more than they get as income from taxes.
Without the low interest rates, many economies would no longer work.
"Who saves money is stupid."
Many states are living above their standards and spend more money than they get.
This are the only countries in the world  that had 2016 government budget surpluses in percent (from 185 countrys with data).

44        Hongkong Hongkong                           0,0 %            2016

40        Neuseeland Neuseeland                   +0,9 %            2016

17        Schweiz Schweiz                                 +1,2 %            2016

62        Luxemburg Luxemburg                     +1,3 %            2016

67        Weißrussland Weißrussland           +1,4 %            2016

4          Deutschland Deutschland                  +1,7 %            2016

53        Singapur Singapur                               +4,5 %            2016

19        Norwegen Norwegen                           +5,8 %            2016

173      Seychellen Seychellen                        +6,6 %            2016

160      Liechtenstein Liechtenstein             +11,8 %          2011

83        Island Island                                            +30,8 %          2016

77        Macau Macau                                         +73,0 %          2016

In percentage the UK is even behind Greece!
29 Greece                                                            -8,6 %     2016

6  UK                                                                      -9,2 %     2016

The amount largest government budget deficits have (from 1-5 in Millionen US-Dollar):

1          USA               -530.000         -13,6 %               2016

2          China             -409.000         -14,7 %              2016

3          Japan               -235.000         -12,2 %           2016

28        Venezuela       -133.180         -58,2 %          2016

6          UK                  -101.000           -9,2 %                2016

F.ck the incompetent politicians.

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by tomacht8

[citybiker]

Is already a bad theatrical act.
Brexit is economically a lose-lose situation, in which each party tries to win at the expense of the other party.
The negotiations are all about damage limitation.
Brexit as dead birth.
Losers in the global world competition:Total Europe, including the UK with its independence sausage.
.
 

There is no tangible evidence to support your argument that Brexit is a lose-lose situation, that’s simply rerun of project fear, which blatantly failed.

Yet again to emphasise the point that Brexit is unknown territory to all, HMG, Businesses and the electorate alike.

The EU is acting like a gold digging ex wife, it’s losing it’s 2nd highest net contributor & simply attempting to recoup its loses as they know the other MS, some more than others will start paying more for the privilege of being part of ponzu scheme otherwise named as the EU.

Part 4 of the talks & still no concrete progress, UK wants trade talks & the EU only want fiscal clarity of how much they’re trying to screw the UK for what they can legally obtain, which is once the UK has left is nowt, zero, nada SFA.



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[mfd101]

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

There is no tangible evidence to support your argument that Brexit is a lose-lose situation, that’s simply rerun of project fear, which blatantly failed.

Yet again to emphasise the point that Brexit is unknown territory to all, HMG, Businesses and the electorate alike.

The EU is acting like a gold digging ex wife, it’s losing it’s 2nd highest net contributor & simply attempting to recoup its loses as they know the other MS, some more than others will start paying more for the privilege of being part of ponzu scheme otherwise named as the EU.

Part 4 of the talks & still no concrete progress, UK wants trade talks & the EU only want fiscal clarity of how much they’re trying to screw the UK for what they can legally obtain, which is once the UK has left is nowt, zero, nada SFA.



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This is scarcely an accurate picture or understanding of reality.

 

The fact that 51% of those fearless Brits who bothered to vote did so on behalf of British 'independence' [whatever that could possibly mean in today's multicultural & globalized world] does not mean that the reality of Brexit will not be a lose-lose outcome for all parties - strategically, economically, financially, culturally, militarily. A world-changing disaster all round, and whistling in the dark won't change that.  How it pans out 20 or 30 years down the track is anyone's guess but there won't be too many winners in the meantime.

 

As to the EU screwing the UK for what it's worth, the latter has already recognized that it will have residual obligations to pay for some years after its departure from membership of the club. What is being negotiated is precisely what those obligations are & how much they amount to.

[dick dasterdly]

May's speech indicated that she was prepared to pay a substantial 'leaving fee' (with no reasons given as to how this amount had been calculated) and that she wanted to further drag out the process (or as she phrased it 'transitional period')....

 

I would have thought EU politicians would be v happy with this as a great place to start negotiating (from their POV) - but no, Tusk has declared that it's not enough for negotiations to proceed.....

 

The ever receding hope of amicable and genuine negotiations has pretty much disappeared IMO.

Edited September 27, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[citybiker]

@mfd

 

A world changing disaster all round? What utter tosh & yet another fine example of project fear.

 

A possible world changing disaster is North Korea & Trump situation, hopefully that'll just remain as political tit for tat.

 

As for 20-30 years time? The UK like other developed countries is more than capable of adapting to changes.

 

 

 

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