Should the British Government be responsible for housing and feeding ex-pats returning from Thailand?

[colinneil]

51 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

"i never went running for help"

there was no pun intended right? or was there? sorry colin

You got me there mate, nice 1.

When i wrote that i wasnt thinking, i couldnt run if my life depended on it.

[473geo]

Step outside the example

Britain is a welfare state, if one has paid in one should be entitled to take out. It really is that simple.

Yes the process can be complex, but in general those in need are offered support.

 

[manchega]

there is the good and the bad in all these things.  I will tell you that a night on the streets of thailand with no money is a damn site more comfortable than the same in the uk.. two things 1. it is hot here, even at nnight, it is hot.  even if its snowing it is hot here.

2. there is always food, the free temple food, the food left at shrines for one of the many gods or budda but its always available.  would take the homeless here over there any day of the week

[Ulic]

Mark has been helped plenty back in the UK. Unfortunately he has not

helped himself at all. Always money for booze and cigarettes, never

any for accommodation and food.

[cheeryble]

2 hours ago, darksidedog said:

The individual in this story doesn't exactly cover himself in glory in his efforts, but it does raise the bigger question of those returning who have paid many, many years of Taxes and N.I. but for whom life overseas, for whatever reason has ended. As a UK citizen, you would like to think you would be offered at least the same benefits as recently arrived immigrants.

I suspect UK citizens do indeed get at least the same benefits as new immigrants, and probably have to go through a lot less hoops.

I think the idea is in a wealthy nation we make sure everyone at least has their very basic needs filled as a sign of civilisation.

With automation growing apace it won't be long before a universal basic income ......with no work required......is brought in. This is a sign of growing wealth aided partially by that automation.

Guess which country has led with a UBI.

Norway? Denmark? France? America?

 

No.....Iran.

 

[mommysboy]

22 minutes ago, scotchonrocks said:

Wrong choices have led to his demise. He is not the responsibility of anyone other than himself. He shifts the abuse of himself to others and they kick him out of their homes for relief. In the end he wants the whole population  to pay for his continuous spiral of decay by way of his citizenship. With citizenship comes responsibility and he has shown none so he is not the responsibility of anyone else, especially the taxpayer. Nothing is said about this man’s family other than his Thai wife who obviously saw the light and gave him the boot. The only hope for him is his family but chances are they worked him out and gave up too. Can you blame them?

 

Now he probably cannot afford a ticket back to Thailand which is probably just as well if he will give other expats a bad name.

 

This is the story of a loser. Let others who may fall into this trap take heed.

 

Harsh, but true, words.  So we've decided he's a loser- What now, let him rot?  I'd rather have a welfare system based on need.

[leither69]

My sympathy knows no bounds,  NOT!!

[tigermoth]

2 hours ago, Jeremy50 said:

Mark goes to Thailand and makes one bad decision after another.  Opens a bar. Drinks like a fish. Marries a bar-girl. Buys her land. It's a train wreck. He then leeches off friends, and eventually has to go home with his tail between his legs. Some generous person gives him a job, but he blows that by drink driving, and is shocked to find that drink driving is illegal in the UK! So, in Thailand he was drink-driving, and risking the lives of all around him? He thinks he is entitled to be looked after by Britain, just because he is British? What a good-for-nothing scumbag. It's a pity we still don't have a penal colony we can just ship this kind of trash off to. 

He is lying through his teeth. Drink driving is not legal in Thailand and everyone knows that every country in the world has drink driving laws. He is just a person who has no self control and expects if's his right that people should aid and assist him. Unless he shows he has some form of spine he may as well jump off the nearest bridge, better for him and everyone else.

[Kadilo]

18 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

WOW, certainly a lot of angry old men on this forum in my opinion, without empathy we cannot forgive, and I not only forgive this poor old chappy, I feel so sorry for his condition, "alcoholism" which is a disease, and if you have had first hand experience watching your father and brother being overtaken by it, until death does them a favour, only then will you really understand the decease.

 

Yes this guy tried to live the dream here from an early age, you have to give him credit for that, after all, who wants to work till their OAP age, unfortunately, he made a few mistakes on the way and is now paying the awful price for it as everybody washes their hands of him, he made his bed, he lay in it, as the saying goes, but I am appualed by some of the comments here on TVF.

 

He purchased a bar, a very very very risky venture which we all know, I believe you poms have an old saying, i.e. "if you want to make a $1,000,000 in Thailand, buy a bar for $1.9 and sell it 6 months later for $1,000,000.

 

Someone made an uneducated comment, i.e. that he married a bar girl, shame on you, but I can understand that coming from an uneducated person, although I would assume if he was willing, once he was out of the bar scene with his (bar girl) wife and moved to the provinces of Thailand, away from the bar scene, and tried raising a family, for him would have been difficult as the alcoholism would have already taken over him, with much sadness to his wife and children, like I said before, this is a decease which very few survive from due to the lack of government support, yes of all the tax dollars they make from alcohol sales, they only invest a fraction into helping those who fall off the bandwagon, and many do fall off. As for buying land in Thailand, well at least his (bar girl) wife has something to fall back on for the kids, as it would have been in her name, hopefully he didn't get her to sell it and pee it up the wall as they say.

 

His friends did what they could for him lending him money, putting him up, and trying to assist, but all got burnt by his alcoholism in the end, this decease is something this poor chap cannot control, like a junky to heroin.

 

Regardless of what happened in his life, he is still a human being, and his mates helping him after all those years attribute to that, a British citizen, who lived abroad, regardless of whether he paid taxes in the last 15 years or not, he should be provided special help to get him back on his feet, i.e. put into an institution against his will, even in an induced coma 

 

I agree with a lot of your points but our NHS is already in crisis so talking about putting in him and people like him in institutions and inducing this type of medical care is never gonna happen as much as it's well intended. 

[tingtongtourist]

 

I think this story is probably an example why the farang jump off buildings in Thailand.

There no doubt many of him and they could end up exactly like him.

 

If you want to stay long time-

Dont get involve with greedy batgirl

No buying property you cant own

No buying business/farm land etc in another of company name or girl

 

If this guy had of kept wally in trousers and kept/save what money he had and stayed single hd probably could have stayed longer in thailand with no trouble.but they never learn.

 

After i read this, i think if i was forced in this situation i would prefer go checkout early but something better than a balcony dive.

 

[anon789561]

30 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

WOW, certainly a lot of angry old men on this forum in my opinion, without empathy we cannot forgive, and I not only forgive this poor old chappy, I feel so sorry for his condition, "alcoholism" which is a disease, and if you have had first hand experience watching your father and brother being overtaken by it, until death does them a favour, only then will you really understand the decease.

 

Yes this guy tried to live the dream here from an early age, you have to give him credit for that, after all, who wants to work till their OAP age, unfortunately, he made a few mistakes on the way and is now paying the awful price for it as everybody washes their hands of him, he made his bed, he lay in it, as the saying goes, but I am appualed by some of the comments here on TVF.

 

He purchased a bar, a very very very risky venture which we all know, I believe you poms have an old saying, i.e. "if you want to make a $1,000,000 in Thailand, buy a bar for $1.9 and sell it 6 months later for $1,000,000.

 

Someone made an uneducated comment, i.e. that he married a bar girl, shame on you, but I can understand that coming from an uneducated person, although I would assume if he was willing, once he was out of the bar scene with his (bar girl) wife and moved to the provinces of Thailand, away from the bar scene, and tried raising a family, for him would have been difficult as the alcoholism would have already taken over him, with much sadness to his wife and children, like I said before, this is a decease which very few survive from due to the lack of government support, yes of all the tax dollars they make from alcohol sales, they only invest a fraction into helping those who fall off the bandwagon, and many do fall off. As for buying land in Thailand, well at least his (bar girl) wife has something to fall back on for the kids, as it would have been in her name, hopefully he didn't get her to sell it and pee it up the wall as they say.

 

His friends did what they could for him lending him money, putting him up, and trying to assist, but all got burnt by his alcoholism in the end, this decease is something this poor chap cannot control, like a junky to heroin.

 

Regardless of what happened in his life, he is still a human being, and his mates helping him after all those years attribute to that, a British citizen, who lived abroad, regardless of whether he paid taxes in the last 15 years or not, he should be provided special help to get him back on his feet, i.e. put into an institution against his will, even in an induced coma at the start, then care until he is well enough to have go back into the community under supervision, and work to earn money to pay taxes to go back into the services that just put him back into the community, but unfortunately help is something that governments will only provide to those they feel will contribute back to the tax system and it would appear that they have weighed up the chances that an alcoholic has, i.e. limited chances to beat the decease which they, the government contributed to by way of collecting taxes from the sales of it, but contribute a fraction back into helping those who fall off the band wagon, perhaps a joint venture should be established by the government with its alcohol making partners, just a suggestion.

 

Personally I feel for this lost soul, he needs special care to get him back on the road to recovery, but I fear his life is worthless, because its easier to discard him and his decease, because society has become inhumane over the years, with most stopping to offer a stray dog a bite to eat rather than a drunken bum.

 

Irregardless of both my fathers and brothers passing to this decease, I have not allowed my anger to take over my empathy as is lacking by a lot here on TVF for this guy, but then again, each to their own, you can own it for as long as you want.

"this is what is hardest, the close the open hand because one loves" Nietzsche

[mommysboy]

30 minutes ago, gmac said:

Agree wholeheartedly with all your points.  The subject of this article deserves no help at all given his history and yet the Government has tried it's best.  

 

Long term expats in Thailand have seen their savings whittled away by low interest rates and a falling exchange rate, no increases to pensions exacerbates the problem so it is little wonder that some will eventually have to return to the Uk as they no longer meet the financial requirements to remain in Thailand.

 

It is these people that will genuinely deserve assistance and I hope when the time comes the UK Government will provide it.

 

Hmm.  It is a bit of an arcane law. The problem is by living abroad money is seeping out from the UK economy, as opposed to sloshing about within it where it is subject to more taxes.  I am astonished that the golden generation complain so much.  The current crop never had it so good, and have enjoyed a standard of life that will not be seen again, and certainly not by their grand children.  As you say, when you return to UK, you will likely need help.  Sadly, for all of us, that could involve end of life care that could run in to hundreds of thousands of pounds of treatment.  And, unless you have property, the Government will be picking up the tab, along with the local authority who will pay your accomodation costs, and for your social care.  So you have no complaint, and some would say you do not deserve it because you decided to leave the UK.  So issues that apply to the guy in the story apply to you also.

 

In effect, you are arguing for 2 classifications of people- those that deserve it and those that don't, and you are putting yourself in the former category. I would rather have benefits for all UK citizens, especially those that need it.

[Kadilo]

7 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

 

I think this story is probably an example why the farang jump off buildings in Thailand.

There no doubt many of him and they could end up exactly like him.

 

If you want to stay long time-

Dont get involve with greedy batgirl

No buying property you cant own

No buying business/farm land etc in another of company name or girl

 

If this guy had of kept wally in trousers and kept/save what money he had and stayed single hd probably could have stayed longer in thailand with no trouble.but they never learn.

 

After i read this, i think if i was forced in this situation i would prefer go checkout early but something better than a balcony dive.

 

He is only 41. He can turn his life around very quickly if he starts making the right choices. Many have and do. There is a lot of help available if he wants to take the first step and admit he has hit the bottom. 

 

[retarius]

Yes they should. The British government should also take better care of their citizens abroad and in Thailand via their embassy.

[tryasimight]

37 minutes ago, gmac said:

Agree wholeheartedly with all your points.  The subject of this article deserves no help at all given his history and yet the Government has tried it's best.  

 

Long term expats in Thailand have seen their savings whittled away by low interest rates and a falling exchange rate, no increases to pensions exacerbates the problem so it is little wonder that some will eventually have to return to the Uk as they no longer meet the financial requirements to remain in Thailand.

 

It is these people that will genuinely deserve assistance and I hope when the time comes the UK Government will provide it.

Why would they genuinely deserve assistance?

If their lack of planning leads to this outcome then are they really any different to 'Mark' in the OP.

They may not have pissed it all away but they have been living the high life relatively speaking, and, no doubt, bragging to their mates back in Blighty.

Is it acceptable to go on extended tax payer funded holiday (forget the NI nonsense -  that was paid to support people already receiving the benefit while you were working) but when it all turns to shit to go crawling back and try and blame someone else on the poor choices they made?

And then further complain that they can't take their wife and toddlers with them!

The Government governs and supposedly make decisions for the greater good of all - not for individuals. If the health care and social costs are rising then taxes go up or people get excluded for one reason or another. There is not an endless supply of money.

 

Don't get me wrong I do feel sorry for the people affected but does anyone in their right mind think they can live the good life for any extended period in Thailand on the UK aged pension alone?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Kadilo said:

He is probably not the best example

to highlight the argument as to whether ex pats should get helped more when they return because as many have said he has not only abused and refused help, he has made many bad  choices. 

Were he a sober, older person who had contributed most of his life to the UK system and then needed to return, and was refused help for 3 months you start to see a potential two tier system compared with new immigrants and that's when the resentment kicks in. 

 

"He is probably not the best example"

 

He's probably the worst example it was possible to find!

[alwaysrainsinUK]

Well the UK is taking care plenty of people coming in from N,Africa an middle east who never contributed 1p ever and their giving away £Blns in foreign aid so who cares its all going kaput soon anyway.

[tryasimight]

35 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

No, tax doesn't come in to it, although I agree that it probably should.

 

It's about residency.  As soon as an expat returns with the intention of settling, then he is classed as resident.

 

It's all very well you resenting what another does, but what about when another taxpayer resents what you do?

What about my mate who emigrated with his family to Oz at ten years old?

He is British by birth but never stepped foot in the place for 50 years.

Can he bugger off to England and claim he is an expat with the intention of settling?

Or are you comments only about 'proper' expats and 'proper 'British?

[tonray]

54 minutes ago, Grusa said:

It's a pity we no longer have a penal colony ........

Pattaya is more of a penile colony...does that count ?

[petedk]

This is a story of one man who squandered his money and was unfortunate to land in this situation.

 

I don't think the government should be responsible for housing and feeding him.

 

On the other hand I may find myself in a similar situation. I am a British citizen and  worked 25 years in another  EU country and paid taxes and expected to retire there with a decent living pension. I decided to come and work in Thailand for a few years before retiring in that EU country (where my grown up children live.)

 

Before I left Europe I checked that everything was ok and that I would receive a pension (or part pension) and was told that I would, if I returned to live there.

I don't know when, but a few years ago I saw that the law had changed and that I have to live the last 5 working years of my life in that country in order to be eligible for pension. I asked at the pension office and they said I wasn't entitled to anything. I feel a little bitter that  they can change the law after I had checked the conditions.

 

It is too late for me to get 5 years working life in that country and now with Brexit I don't even know if I can live there again. I have no ties in the UK. but maybe I will have to go back there.

 

I don't expect the UK government to rehouse me. I do have enough savings to start my life there, but I was planning on getting at least a small pension to help me live a reasonable life there.

 

In fact, if I can't get any pension I might as well stay here, where I have a condo and my savings. My biggest fear though is having a major illness that will cost a fortune to treat.

 

I have worked hard in Europe and Thailand for my future and I am not really complaining, although I feel that having paid over 50% in taxes for 25 years I should be entitled to something. 

 

Others who squander their savings or have never worked in UK and return shouldn't really be given help.

 

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

What about my mate who emigrated with his family to Oz at ten years old?

He is British by birth but never stepped foot in the place for 50 years.

Can he bugger off to England and claim he is an expat with the intention of settling?

Or are you comments only about 'proper' expats and 'proper 'British?

 

British is British. We are talking mainly about expats who have lived mostly in the UK and then return to UK out of need.   If your friend is British by birth, as you say, then yes he can return to UK, precisely because he is British.  I'm not sure I used the word 'proper' in the context presented.

[tonray]

2 minutes ago, petedk said:

My biggest fear though is having a major illness that will cost a fortune to treat.

Why not buy insurance ? I know Brits are not accustomed to this but reality necessitates it here.

[worgeordie]

Who gives a monkey's about Mark,we all have problems of one sort of

another,and have to solve them ourselves,you take what life gives you

and try and make the best from it,drinking to excess ,gambling,and hard

drugs are a very bad choice for anyone,but its their choice.

 

regards worgeordie

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, petedk said:

This is a story of one man who squandered his money and was unfortunate to land in this situation.

 

I don't think the government should be responsible for housing and feeding him.

 

On the other hand I may find myself in a similar situation. I am a British citizen and  worked 25 years in another  EU country and paid taxes and expected to retire there with a decent living pension. I decided to come and work in Thailand for a few years before retiring in that EU country (where my grown up children live.)

 

Before I left Europe I checked that everything was ok and that I would receive a pension (or part pension) and was told that I would, if I returned to live there.

I don't know when, but a few years ago I saw that the law had changed and that I have to live the last 5 working years of my life in that country in order to be eligible for pension. I asked at the pension office and they said I wasn't entitled to anything. I feel a little bitter that  they can change the law after I had checked the conditions.

 

It is too late for me to get 5 years working life in that country and now with Brexit I don't even know if I can live there again. I have no ties in the UK. but maybe I will have to go back there.

 

I don't expect the UK government to rehouse me. I do have enough savings to start my life there, but I was planning on getting at least a small pension to help me live a reasonable life there.

 

In fact, if I can't get any pension I might as well stay here, where I have a condo and my savings. My biggest fear though is having a major illness that will cost a fortune to treat.

 

I have worked hard in Europe and Thailand for my future and I am not really complaining, although I feel that having paid over 50% in taxes for 25 years I should be entitled to something. 

 

Others who squander their savings or have never worked in UK and return shouldn't really be given help.

 

 

To an extent, you have also presented a story in which you have been the victim of harsh circumstances.  I'm sure we can all identify with it, perhaps the guy in the story also.

 

I suppose it comes down to whether we let the guy waste away on the street or not.  Of course he doesn't deserve it, but...

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, tonray said:

Why not buy insurance ? I know Brits are not accustomed to this but reality necessitates it here.

 

You have rather too much faith in insurance as it applies to the elderly.

[losername]

1 minute ago, tonray said:

Why not buy insurance ? I know Brits are not accustomed to this but reality necessitates it here.

Pre-existing conditions!!  I have insurance and was confident when I came to Thailand that I could always go back to UK if something had to be dealt with that exceeded my insurance cover and I could not afford to pay for myself.  That safety net has now been removed.

[edwardflory]

I am a Yank, feel sorrow that he can not get his life under control, but do not fell sorry for him; he continued to "make the bed he slept in".

 

I worked 54 years to have the life I live now, NO bar girls, very little drinking, but no wife - as yet.  ( I date women who have a work history of at least 15 years, and in management positions if possible )  I always keep money off shore for a emergency trip ( and 3 months NOW ESTIMATED living expenses ) back to home, as well as a credit card that I use once monthly, $10.00 charge to keep the card current - charges paid thru my off shore account.

 

If, as a young man, he had chosen a different "scene - see below", quite possible he could have been successful in Th, or in any country.

 

Party with bar ladies, drinking all the time, buying land you get NO title to, buying a bar business, a great formula for disaster in almost ANY country the past 10 or so years.

 

May God watch over you my man.

[Xaos]

British gov and its ppl dont have problem to welcome and house extremist muslims, paid them benefits and that. Not so much for thier own or for fellow christians from europe.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, johnray said:

There are no jobs in the UK because they outsource everything by choice.  So we have reached a point where government support is the only option for a lot of people in society.  This is simple mathematics.  If you have 10 people and 10 jobs. And than you give your company to China and loose 8 jobs.  You now have 8 people that need government support.  I don't really see the difference if he has been to a bar in Thailand or not.

 

It doesn't really matter if he's paid taxes because social security comes from general taxation.

 

No jobs? It appears from the story that Mark had plenty of job opportunities in this story. In fact, in this regard, he received excellent support. The one thing that went wrong after his return was the booze. (As for the nonsense mathematics, we'll save that one for another time)

[theguyfromanotherforum]

No sympathy for this guy whatsoever. I'm neither angry or "old", but if I went back to Canada after spending my best years in Thailand doing nothing, I wouldn't bash the country because they tried to help me. This privileged first world country snowflake doesn't know how good he has it.