New roof advice

[simoh1490]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Got the smaller side, 4 of them will put 1 in each quadrant of the cross shaped beam

 

They are costly for what they are, agree. And they won't last as long as the thick wooden gable vents (mine 20 years on, are in great shape still). 10 years max, maybe less. But  serves the purpose and beats trying to construct my own.

 

The roof tiles & accessories (including eaves filler) will be delivered Wednesday, supplier was able to expedite things with the factory. Came to 39K inclusive of delivery.

How many square metres was that, do you know?

[carlyai]

Simoh would know more about this, but Sheryl, if you can, when you have that spare moment ho ho put a thermometer on the air intake side and air output side and lets know the readings?

In fact, you could wire up some electronics to your lounge room, with digital displays like a weather station, and you'de know how it's all going in the hot season.
Great talking point. [emoji3]

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[simoh1490]

12 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Simoh would know more about this, but Sheryl, if you can, when you have that spare moment ho ho put a thermometer on the air intake side and air output side and lets know the readings?

In fact, you could wire up some electronics to your lounge room, with digital displays like a weather station, and you'de know how it's all going in the hot season.
Great talking point.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

Oddly enough I did do similar! The air intake side is the same as the outside temperature which varies based on whether you read it from the sunny or shaded side of the house, the difference can be many degrees. The exhaust side reading depends on the type of roof, time of day, the direction the roof is facing and the outside air temperature.

 

I tried to get my hands on a USB temperature cable which has a thermo on the end and a long cable to attach to a lap top, no hab in Thailand! Since I have a very tall attic roof, it's about 14 feet or more from the attic floor to the ridge, it was difficult to get a reading at the ridge. But using the exhaust fan thermo. controls I registered 43 degrees C at 1 pm on a very hot day, six feet from the attic floor, that was the point at which the fan kicked in.

 

By FAR the more important point to note is that the air in the bottom one foot of the attic was about the same as the intake air from the soffits, which means the whole business of insulation and vented soffits does indeed work. What was happening was the cool air was being drawn in and it was pushing the hot air out but as the day wore on, the temperature in the attic started to overwhelm the cool air intake and kept on pushing downwards. By just before sundown the cool air barrier on the floor of the attic had reduced to almost zero, it was then down the foil-wrapped batt insulation to protect the ceilings and the living space below. By 10pm the steel in the roof, the roof tiles and the stonework in the top of the walls was still emitting stored heat and by that time the foil-wrapped fibreglass insulation had just about been defeated. At around 2 am it was noticeably hotter in the living space but this was a function of stored heat in the building being released. But by 2 am the heat had peaked and had started to dissipate quite quickly thereafter since the outside temperature had dropped substantially by then - by 3 am or so the house was cool once again.

 

Throughout the above, the living space remained cool during the day which is really when what you need. If the house does get hot during the evening or night it's easy enough to open windows to cool off. On that point, the cycle of opening and closing windows and doors is important, leave them closed during the day, open them in the evening and at night.

 

Lastly, you can negate the effects of the stored heat release after the sun goes down by using a steel roof since that doesn't store heat.

[carlyai]

Oddly enough I did do similar! The air intake side is the same as the outside temperature which varies based on whether you read it from the sunny or shaded side of the house, the difference can be many degrees. The exhaust side reading depends on the type of roof, time of day, the direction the roof is facing and the outside air temperature.
 
I tried to get my hands on a USB temperature cable which has a thermo on the end and a long cable to attach to a lap top, no hab in Thailand! Since I have a very tall attic roof, it's about 14 feet or more from the attic floor to the ridge, it was difficult to get a reading at the ridge. But using the exhaust fan thermo. controls I registered 43 degrees C at 1 pm on a very hot day, six feet from the attic floor, that was the point at which the fan kicked in.
 
By FAR the more important point to note is that the air in the bottom one foot of the attic was about the same as the intake air from the soffits, which means the whole business of insulation and vented soffits does indeed work. What was happening was the cool air was being drawn in and it was pushing the hot air out but as the day wore on, the temperature in the attic started to overwhelm the cool air intake and kept on pushing downwards. By just before sundown the cool air barrier on the floor of the attic had reduced to almost zero, it was then down the foil-wrapped batt insulation to protect the ceilings and the living space below. By 10pm the steel in the roof, the roof tiles and the stonework in the top of the walls was still emitting stored heat and by that time the foil-wrapped fibreglass insulation had just about been defeated. At around 2 am it was noticeably hotter in the living space but this was a function of stored heat in the building being released. But by 2 am the heat had peaked and had started to dissipate quite quickly thereafter since the outside temperature had dropped substantially by then - by 3 am or so the house was cool once again.
 
Throughout the above, the living space remained cool during the day which is really when what you need. If the house does get hot during the evening or night it's easy enough to open windows to cool off. On that point, the cycle of opening and closing windows and doors is important, leave them closed during the day, open them in the evening and at night.
 
Lastly, you can negate the effects of the stored heat release after the sun goes down by using a steel roof since that doesn't store heat.

Well done mate. I'm now pretty sure I've read some of your posts before in other threads. You certainly know what you're doing.
I hope you keep me in mind when I start a thread next year to clean up my house heat. Mostly done, but a revisit is needed.

With all the work Sheryl is doing, it would be nice to have some gauges somewhere.

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[simoh1490]

17 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Well done mate. I'm now pretty sure I've read some of your posts before in other threads. You certainly know what you're doing.
I hope you keep me in mind when I start a thread next year to clean up my house heat. Mostly done, but a revisit is needed.

With all the work Sheryl is doing, it would be nice to have some gauges somewhere.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

I'll be happy to help, just give me a shout.

 

The biggest single thing I think you can do beforehand is to see if you can prevent the heat transfer from the steel in the roof to the stonework in the walls. What I had wanted to do but haven't is to put some insulation between the steel and the walls, either that or replacing the top two layers of brick with Thermalite insulating block, two layers of the stuff would help stop heat transfer later in the evening.

[Kwasaki]

On 11/13/2017 at 8:38 AM, simoh1490 said:

As I recall wayne I went looking for similar here couldn't find them, it wouldn't be the first time I tried to find a simple building product like that in Thailand and failed!

You can get someone to make em well i can where i live out in the north.

[Kwasaki]

22 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Sorry if not clear, I'll try again:

 

The gables at either side of the house DO connect directly to the roof cavity, unimpeded. Beneath them are the two bedrooms, and between them, is the cavity created by the back middle roof, beneath which is a sort of living area. This whole roof cavity, a sort of U shape , is open. This is the original house design with the open area in front having no roof.

 

What does not connect are the overhangs below the gables. These have nothing under them, they just jut out from the house. So I will not be putting RB beneath them and there is nothing to insulate there.

 

The middle front area (with the small gable) has its own attic space which connects to the rest of the attic only by a rather small space. This is what I thought you were saying to insulate and was where I was going to put vented soffit into the ceiling. HOWEVER, I finally stuck my head up into that space and it turns out that this ceiling is lower than the others and does connect to the overhang, so the front middle overhand can have vented soffits. See pix

Any idea as to how I can construct evae vents around that wooden "T" beam most welcome.

Just vent the roof ridge in this area, install a vent in the gable and seal eave with eave fillers pieces or vented eave filler pieces.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, carlyai said:

Well done mate. I'm now pretty sure I've read some of your posts before in other threads. You certainly know what you're doing.
I hope you keep me in mind when I start a thread next year to clean up my house heat. Mostly done, but a revisit is needed.

With all the work Sheryl is doing, it would be nice to have some gauges somewhere.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

 

By FAR the more important point to note is that the air in the bottom one foot of the attic was about the same as the intake air from the soffits, which means the whole business of insulation and vented soffits does indeed work. What was happening was the cool air was being drawn in and it was pushing the hot air out but as the day wore on, the temperature in the attic started to overwhelm the cool air intake and kept on pushing downwards. By just before sundown the cool air barrier on the floor of the attic had reduced to almost zero, it was then down the foil-wrapped batt insulation to protect the ceilings and the living space below. By 10pm the steel in the roof, the roof tiles and the stonework in the top of the walls was still emitting stored heat and by that time the foil-wrapped fibreglass insulation had just about been defeated. At around 2 am it was noticeably hotter in the living space but this was a function of stored heat in the building being released. But by 2 am the heat had peaked and had started to dissipate quite quickly thereafter since the outside temperature had dropped substantially by then - by 3 am or so the house was cool once again.

 

 

This thread is just amazing and well deserved, Sheryl has contributed a lot to the expat community in both relevant and important knowledge and also in providing balance, and so nice to see some recognition of her kindness in the contributions and knowledge shared in this thread.

 

And of course the thread has enlightened hundreds of us in regard to roofs and heat and cooling, insulation etc. 

 

I also have heat problems and the hottest room in the (2 level) house is my bedroom which is on the corner which gets the biggest concentration of direct sun from about 10.00 am to sundown.

 

Our village is just 5 years old and the overall engineering seems to be recognized as well planned and well executed. We have black cement tile roofs on steel framing with cement block walls, and aluminium sheeting directly under the cement tiles.

 

From this thread I've learned so much about getting the hot air out.

 

In our eaves, at each corner we have one panel as shown in the photo attached below (photo taken looking up at the eaves). The 'slits' are about 60 cm long and the slit opening is less than 1 cm.  I'm wondering whether that's enough overall opening to really let much hot air hot?

 

Some comments would be greatly appreciated.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

 

By FAR the more important point to note is that the air in the bottom one foot of the attic was about the same as the intake air from the soffits, which means the whole business of insulation and vented soffits does indeed work. What was happening was the cool air was being drawn in and it was pushing the hot air out but as the day wore on, the temperature in the attic started to overwhelm the cool air intake and kept on pushing downwards. By just before sundown the cool air barrier on the floor of the attic had reduced to almost zero, it was then down the foil-wrapped batt insulation to protect the ceilings and the living space below. By 10pm the steel in the roof, the roof tiles and the stonework in the top of the walls was still emitting stored heat and by that time the foil-wrapped fibreglass insulation had just about been defeated. At around 2 am it was noticeably hotter in the living space but this was a function of stored heat in the building being released. But by 2 am the heat had peaked and had started to dissipate quite quickly thereafter since the outside temperature had dropped substantially by then - by 3 am or so the house was cool once again.

 

 

This thread is just amazing and well deserved, Sheryl has contributed a lot to the expat community in both relevant and important knowledge and also in providing balance, and so nice to see some recognition of her kindness in the contributions and knowledge shared in this thread.

 

And of course the thread has enlightened hundreds of us in regard to roofs and heat and cooling, insulation etc. 

 

I also have heat problems and the hottest room in the (2 level) house is my bedroom which is on the corner which gets the biggest concentration of direct sun from about 10.00 am to sundown.

 

Our village is just 5 years old and the overall engineering seems to be recognized as well planned and well executed. We have black cement tile roofs on steel framing with cement block walls, and aluminium sheeting directly under the cement tiles.

 

From this thread I've learned so much about getting the hot air out.

 

In our eaves, at each corner we have one panel as shown in the photo attached below (photo taken looking up at the eaves). The 'slits' are about 60 cm long and the slit opening is less than 1 cm.  I'm wondering whether that's enough overall opening to really let much hot air hot?

 

Some comments would be greatly appreciated.

That's exactly the type of ventilation I was trying to describe earlier when I wrote that newer houses have vented soffits on the corners of the eaves only. They rely on the fact that hot air in the roof void expands and because the rest of the roof is sealed, the hot air is forced out of those slits in the eaves that you've shown. The biggest problem with that type of ventilation is that the ceiling of the upstairs rooms is most often higher than the height of those corner vents hence the upstairs ceilings heat up and the heat transfers into those rooms, long before expansion can force it out of the soffit.

 

It's difficult to retrofit that type of ventilation and turn it into something more practical, a combination of foil encased fibreglass insulation above the upstairs ceilings, in the roof void, and, a whirlybird on the roof are probably the two easiest ways, although many people don't like the appearance of whirlybirds on their roof.

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I also have heat problems and the hottest room in the (2 level) house is my bedroom which is on the corner which gets the biggest concentration of direct sun from about 10.00 am to sundown.

 

My bedroom upstairs is the same with windows all around I cannot grow trees one side and the soi side the trees haven't grown enough yet.

The large roof overhang works to a point but or the glass areas are the main source of heat, double glazing with sun reflective glass is on the cards.

To counteract heat at the mo is the turning the large air-con unit on 10 mins  before entering the room for stay. 

 

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

My bedroom upstairs is the same with windows all around I cannot grow trees one side and the soi side the trees haven't grown enough yet.

The large roof overhang works to a point but or the glass areas are the main source of heat, double glazing with sun reflective glass is on the cards.

To counteract heat at the mo is the turning the large air-con unit on 10 mins  before entering the room for stay. 

 

I used to have a condo on the 16th floor that was that way. I was able to have double glazed units made up using Thai Asahi "E" glass which is low emissivity glass and the installer was able to trim the channel in the existing frames to make them fit. That meant I didn't have to replace the entire window plus they looked the same from the outside as the rest of the windows in the building (a requirement). They worked very well but it didn't solve the problem of heat transfer through the walls which is the bigger problem and almost impossible to solve. BTW green glass is optimal for that purpose.

[scorecard]

27 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

That's exactly the type of ventilation I was trying to describe earlier when I wrote that newer houses have vented soffits on the corners of the eaves only. They rely on the fact that hot air in the roof void expands and because the rest of the roof is sealed, the hot air is forced out of those slits in the eaves that you've shown. The biggest problem with that type of ventilation is that the ceiling of the upstairs rooms is most often higher than the height of those corner vents hence the upstairs ceilings heat up and the heat transfers into those rooms, long before expansion can force it out of the soffit.

 

It's difficult to retrofit that type of ventilation and turn it into something more practical, a combination of foil encased fibreglass insulation above the upstairs ceilings, in the roof void, and, a whirlybird on the roof are probably the two easiest ways, although many people don't like the appearance of whirlybirds on their roof.

Thanks for your comments and suggestion.

 

Yes the ceilings in the actual rooms is higher then the eaves. And yes I suggested a 'whirlybird' on the roof but got a negative response with comments about 'ugly'.

 

In regard to encased insulation can you please recommend a brand name / type of encased insulation. My earlier naive research (with no action) seemed to indicate 'Rockwool' as a better product, would you agree?

 

Also how thick? Another thread I found recommended 8 to 10 inches thick. Is that good advice and does it even comes in such large thickness? 

[simoh1490]

30 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Thanks for your comments and suggestion.

 

Yes the ceilings in the actual rooms is higher then the eaves. And yes I suggested a 'whirlybird' on the roof but got a negative response with comments about 'ugly'.

 

In regard to encased insulation can you please recommend a brand name / type of encased insulation. My earlier naive research (with no action) seemed to indicate 'Rockwool' as a better product, would you agree?

 

Also how thick? Another thread I found recommended 8 to 10 inches thick. Is that good advice and does it even comes in such large thickness? 

I've been using a Homepro product by Sunshield and it seems to work very well. It's fibreglass insulation encased in (very flimsy) aluminium foil, designed to stop vermin from nesting in it and to prevent it from absorbing moisture. SCG makes a similar product although the Sunshield is cheaper. They come in 3 inch and 6 inch thicknesses, 3 inch provides about R19 insulation value so two layers will give you about double. One roll is 0.6 metres by 4 metres and it's easy to handle and lay. I don't know is rockwool is better, in Thailand, it's more likely to be a question of what is available! https://www.homepro.co.th/category/11798

 

SCG Monier makes roof tiles that have vents in them, I've seen them advertised but I've never actually seen one for sale anywhere, every time I've asked after them I've been given odd looks! If you take some time and ask around you might be able to locate something that works from their range, if you do find any, please let me know.

 

Finally, there'a an Australian roof ventilation company that sells brilliant roof vent products and they are not expensive.  Their universal tile ventilator is excellent and I have spoken to them about trying to get some shipped here. Unfortunately, it's a matter of size and fit of tiles in Thailand vs those in Aus. and they are not the same. You might want to pursue to see if you can make it work somehow. https://universaltileventilators.com.au/

Edited November 14, 2017 by simoh1490

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

That meant I didn't have to replace the entire window plus they looked the same from the outside as the rest of the windows in the building (a requirement).

I don't have to abide to requirements,  doubling with secondary glazing in the existing timber frame will give a good result.

 

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

They worked very well but it didn't solve the problem of heat transfer through the walls which is the bigger problem and almost impossible to solve.

That's not true nothing is impossible except paying taxes and death.

 

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

BTW green glass is optimal for that purpose.

Again no, insignificant differences.

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't have to abide to requirements,  doubling with secondary glazing in the existing timber frame will give a good result.

 

That's not true nothing is impossible except paying taxes and death.

 

Again no, insignificant differences.

The green glass part comes from Thai Asahi Glass (TAG) who sent somebody round to specify and cost the work, they were very very helpful.

[Kwasaki]

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

The green glass part comes from Thai Asahi Glass (TAG) who sent somebody round to specify and cost the work, they were very very helpful.

Well as they say in Thailand  " it's up to you " and so very true wherever you are in the world and also applies to doing an existing renovation re-roof.

[wayned]

42 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

except paying taxes

Do you really pay taxes?

[carlyai]

Do you really pay taxes?

I do.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[grollies]

19 minutes ago, carlyai said:

I do.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

I don't earn enough to pay tax

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I've been using a Homepro product by Sunshield and it seems to work very well. It's fibreglass insulation encased in (very flimsy) aluminium foil, designed to stop vermin from nesting in it and to prevent it from absorbing moisture. SCG makes a similar product although the Sunshield is cheaper. They come in 3 inch and 6 inch thicknesses, 3 inch provides about R19 insulation value so two layers will give you about double. One roll is 0.6 metres by 4 metres and it's easy to handle and lay. I don't know is rockwool is better, in Thailand, it's more likely to be a question of what is available! https://www.homepro.co.th/category/11798

 

SCG Monier makes roof tiles that have vents in them, I've seen them advertised but I've never actually seen one for sale anywhere, every time I've asked after them I've been given odd looks! If you take some time and ask around you might be able to locate something that works from their range, if you do find any, please let me know.

 

Finally, there'a an Australian roof ventilation company that sells brilliant roof vent products and they are not expensive.  Their universal tile ventilator is excellent and I have spoken to them about trying to get some shipped here. Unfortunately, it's a matter of size and fit of tiles in Thailand vs those in Aus. and they are not the same. You might want to pursue to see if you can make it work somehow. https://universaltileventilators.com.au/

 

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Posted 5 hours ago (edited)

  5 hours ago, scorecard said:

Thanks for your comments and suggestion.

 

Yes the ceilings in the actual rooms is higher then the eaves. And yes I suggested a 'whirlybird' on the roof but got a negative response with comments about 'ugly'.

 

In regard to encased insulation can you please recommend a brand name / type of encased insulation. My earlier naive research (with no action) seemed to indicate 'Rockwool' as a better product, would you agree?

 

Also how thick? Another thread I found recommended 8 to 10 inches thick. Is that good advice and does it even comes in such large thickness? 

"I've been using a Homepro product by Sunshield and it seems to work very well. It's fibreglass insulation encased in (very flimsy) aluminium foil,..."

 

In my unprofessional searching for insulation i've been avoiding fibreglass because decades back (in my home country) fibreglass insulation was seen as a nasty, causing serious health issues etc.

 

It that perhaps not really true, and also perhaps it's now a better product? 

 

Appreciate your comment, thanks.  

[Sheryl]

Well the scaffolding is complete and this morning the tiles and accessories all arrived and have been unloaded...and, as expected this provoked a serious rainstorm!

 

Since 2 of the 3 workers have to make a visa run on Saturday we will probably do all the soffits and the additional gable vents first and start the serious roof work Sunday, hoping that allows enough time for the storms to dissipate.

[carlyai]

Well the scaffolding is complete and this morning the tiles and accessories all arrived and have been unloaded...and, as expected this provoked a serious rainstorm!
 
Since 2 of the 3 workers have to make a visa run on Saturday we will probably do all the soffits and the additional gable vents first and start the serious roof work Sunday, hoping that allows enough time for the storms to dissipate.

Got your rain in this morning. Now all the rice is wet.
It's all your fault for taking the roof off. [emoji3]

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[Kwasaki]

On 11/14/2017 at 7:56 PM, grollies said:

I don't earn enough to pay tax

People pay taxes when you buy roofing materials to stay on subject. 

[Kwasaki]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:12 PM, scorecard said:

 

 

"I've been using a Homepro product by Sunshield and it seems to work very well. It's fibreglass insulation encased in (very flimsy) aluminium foil,..."

 

In my unprofessional searching for insulation i've been avoiding fibreglass because decades back (in my home country) fibreglass insulation was seen as a nasty, causing serious health issues etc.

 

It that perhaps not really true, and also perhaps it's now a better product? 

 

Appreciate your comment, thanks.  

There's no improvement in fibreglass itself only in products that encase it.

 

When using uncovered fibreglass protection is best using overalls, gloves, eyeglasses & a mask.

 

The fibreglass I laid on my upstairs ceiling was from Homemart, the foil covering was very strong.

[Sheryl]

Some baselines pre-roof work. I don't have a weather thermometer so using regular one, no readings below 35 C

 

Outside temperature = <35 (reported to be 33 in the ampur 20 km away)

 

Main attic area (with gable vents) = 39.5 C

 

Attic are in the middle gable (no vents) = 41.0 C

 

Inside house downstairs =  <35

 

Inside house, upstairs = 35.4 C

 

In both attic sections only air intake is via unclosed eaves and RB not yet installed

[grollies]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

People pay taxes when you buy roofing materials to stay on subject. 

Fair enough

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

There's no improvement in fibreglass itself only in products that encase it.

 

When using uncovered fibreglass protection is best using overalls, gloves, eyeglasses & a mask.

 

The fibreglass I laid on my upstairs ceiling was from Homemart, the foil covering was very strong.

 

Thanks for that.

Were you able to buy any type of canopy, or whatever the right term is to put over the downlights so that the insulation (the plastic bag) isn't in contact with the lights? 

[wayned]

On 11/15/2017 at 1:01 PM, Sheryl said:

storms to dissipate

When you are ready to remove the old roof, PM me.  I will do some laundry and wash the truck.  That way all of the rain in SEA will be centered over my house in Nakhon Sawan Province!

[carlyai]

Some baselines pre-roof work. I don't have a weather thermometer so using regular one, no readings below 35 C
 
Outside temperature =  
Main attic area (with gable vents) = 39.5 C
 
Attic are in the middle gable (no vents) = 41.0 C
 
Inside house downstairs =  35
 
Inside house, upstairs = 35.4 C
 
In both attic sections only air intake is via unclosed eaves and RB not yet installed

Great baseline data. Be interesting to see how this changes as you progress.
With that shower, did you find out if the un-foiled outside section is waterproof?

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[simoh1490]

14 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Some baselines pre-roof work. I don't have a weather thermometer so using regular one, no readings below 35 C

 

Outside temperature = <35 (reported to be 33 in the ampur 20 km away)

 

Main attic area (with gable vents) = 39.5 C

 

Attic are in the middle gable (no vents) = 41.0 C

 

Inside house downstairs =  <35

 

Inside house, upstairs = 35.4 C

 

In both attic sections only air intake is via unclosed eaves and RB not yet installed

What time of day?

Windows/doors open or closed?

 

Also, if you have a chance, how many square metres is your roof, useful to confirm ventilation sizes later.