About that 800K needed for retirement extension...

[attrayant]

I have a life/health insurance policy through Kasikorn, into which I am supposed to deposit about 180,000 baht every year for five years until the account reaches maturity at 1 million baht.  I also get a dividend (perhaps not the right term) every year for having this account.  The policy has real cash value, and I can cash it in at any time if I like.  Assuming the balance is at least 800K, could I use this to meet my financial deposit obligations for extending my retirement stay?

[YetAnother]

an excellent question; i am in the same boat, albeit a top thai insurance company, there are 'cash values(cashable to me)' associated with the payment schedule

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Assuming the balance is at least 800K, could I use this to meet my financial deposit obligations for extending my retirement stay?

No it would not.

Number 1 is that it is not in a bank which is written in the police order and it would not allow immediate withdrawal without any delay.

[elviajero]

33 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Assuming the balance is at least 800K, could I use this to meet my financial deposit obligations for extending my retirement stay?

No.

What UJ said plus, it is meant to be money you are using to live off of in lieu of an income.

[attrayant]

22 minutes ago, elviajero said:

it is meant to be money you are using to live off of in lieu of an income.

 

But the 800K has to be there every year, untouched, does it not?  If you draw on it as income, then it won't be 800K by the time renewal comes around.  I am presently maintaining an 800-ish thousand balance for my retirement extension but I never touch it for fear of having it drop below the 800K level.  For my actual income and daily expenses, I am drawing on different sources.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, attrayant said:

But the 800K has to be there every year, untouched, does it not? 

No it does not. It only has to be in the bank for 3 months on the date you apply for you apply for the extension.

If you have provable income you can use that to meet the 65 baht income requirement or together with with money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

[attrayant]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

No it does not. It only has to be in the bank for 3 months on the date you apply for you apply for the extension.

 

So I can draw on it, but then just have to put it all back a few months later?  Then there would probably be questions as to where the "topping-up" money came from.  Might as well just avoid the headache and leave it there.

 

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

If you have provable income you can use that to meet the 65 baht income requirement or together with with money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

 

It's not 65K.  I have a monthly income from several sources (all outside of Thailand) that is about 45K.  This is more than enough to live on since I stay rent-free with my Thai inlaws.  Since the cash insurance policy with K-Bank isn't useful, I'll just keep everything the way it is for now.

[KhunBENQ]

35 minutes ago, attrayant said:

So I can draw on it, but then just have to put it all back a few months later?

Yes. As soon as you have the stamp you can use the money and 3 months before your next application is has to reach 800k and stay above for 3 months.

 

35 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Then there would probably be questions as to where the "topping-up" money came from.

Personally I have never been asked about the source.

Anyway you sign a form explicitly acknowledging that you don't work (create income) in Thailand and that seems enough for them.

 

And how would you transfer the 45k equivalent income to Thailand?

Any form of bank transfer or ATM use would be sufficient proof just in case.

[JackThompson]

32 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Then there would probably be questions as to where the "topping-up" money came from. 

I believe that question only arises when doing a "conversion" from a tourist-entry.

 

32 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Might as well just avoid the headache and leave it there.

That does save having to remember to top-it-up in time, lest it be shy of the required seasoning.  Too many stories here of "... it won't be there long enough when my next extension is due to happen."

 

The bit with the income, is that it can be combined with money.  So your 45K * 12 = 540,000, and need only 260K in the bank.  But that requires getting an income document from your embassy every year.  I agree if you can just leave the 800K alone, it makes everything simpler.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

But the 800K has to be there every year, untouched, does it not?  If you draw on it as income, then it won't be 800K by the time renewal comes around.  I am presently maintaining an 800-ish thousand balance for my retirement extension but I never touch it for fear of having it drop below the 800K level.  For my actual income and daily expenses, I am drawing on different sources.

It has been known for offices to request more information if they see the money is untouched. So if you don't draw on the funds during the year it's possible that they will want proof of the "different sources". No big deal, but you should be aware of the possibility.

[StayinThailand2much]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

It has been known for offices to request more information if they see the money is untouched. So if you don't draw on the funds during the year it's possible that they will want proof of the "different sources". No big deal, but you should be aware of the possibility.

So, what does "draw on the funds" mean? If one had other income, and withdrew only, say, 10,000 baht every month from the balance; would that be 'enough' to avoid extra questions, or would they question your 'low living expenses'?

[ubonjoe]

6 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

So, what does "draw on the funds" mean? If one had other income, and withdrew only, say, 10,000 baht every month from the balance; would that be 'enough' to avoid extra questions, or would they question your 'low living expenses'?

I think 10k would be a little on the low side.

But there would be no need to take funds from the account that the 800k baht is kept in if you could show a bank book showing the funds coming into another account or for example a non Thai bank statement showing ATM withdrawals here.

[JackThompson]

 

10 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

So, what does "draw on the funds" mean?

Here is one report from Buriram of this - "They  don't want to see money sat in the bank doing nothing (say, 800k).  They want an active account that shows income but also that the money is being spent":
https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/975432-monthly-income-for-ret-visa/

 

Note that only some offices invent non-existent laws/rules for the financial requirements, so you may not have to worry about this.  The rules say "have X in the bank" - not "you have X in the bank and also prove you spend Y out of the account every month."  But, in lawless situations (dealing with Immigration in some contexts and locations), if the person at the desk says, "I demand to see (something)" - it doesn't really matter what the law says - you either comply, or move to avoid dealing with that office.

 

Since this demand doesn't have a legal-basis, the amount by which this account must be drawn-down each month, would be arbitrary.  Perhaps, even for "money in the bank" qualifiers, they will want to see an amount equal to that needed for the "qualify by income" folks. 

 

This is similar to cases, reported over the years, where applicants using income to meet the financial qualifications of Non-O visas were asked for proof that the entire required-to-qualify amount was being transferred to Thailand.  The rules say "have X income" - not "transfer and spend X income in Thailand," but ... one example from Nong Khai 2015 for retirement - "... 65,000 baht by foreign transfer MONTHLY into a Thai bank account ...":

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/842481-income-statements-from-the-embassy-no-longer-accepted-as-poi/

 

I can see people having to run money around bank to bank / country to country, in circles, to create the "proper" paper-trails - especially those on retirement, given one can live comfortably in Thailand with expenses well under 65K/mo. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by JackThompson

[Tony125]

15 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

So I can draw on it, but then just have to put it all back a few months later?  Then there would probably be questions as to where the "topping-up" money came from.  Might as well just avoid the headache and leave it there.

 

 

It's not 65K.  I have a monthly income from several sources (all outside of Thailand) that is about 45K.  This is more than enough to live on since I stay rent-free with my Thai inlaws.  Since the cash insurance policy with K-Bank isn't useful, I'll just keep everything the way it is for now.

As others have mentioned you can use the combo method to qualify for the retirement visa.  The money coming in from overseas can be from any source such as pension, property rentals, ect.  Your embassy will give you a letter declaring that your income is say 45,000 baht per month, that's 540,000 baht a year. You would only need to keep 260,000 baht in the bank which brings the total to 800,000 baht a year for retirement extension.  I receive a pension from US Gov office and have a printout every year from them but the US Embassy has told me  "we don't need to see that" and just take my declaration of income. Same with Changwatena Immigration they have said don't need that. The letter from the embassy is good for 6 months so you will have to get a new one every year.

[attrayant]

Part of my overseas income if from renting out my condo back in DC.  That technically makes me a landlord.  By any interpretation of the laws here, does that mean I'm working in Thailand?

 

I don't get anything official certifying the income from my renter, but I suppose I could print out a copy of my US checking account showing the monthly deposit in case anyone asks.

 

9 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by attrayant
can't figure out how to get rid of that quote box ↑

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Part of my overseas income if from renting out my condo back in DC.  That technically makes me a landlord.  By any interpretation of the laws here, does that mean I'm working in Thailand?

I don't get anything official certifying the income from my renter, but I suppose I could print out a copy of my US checking account showing the monthly deposit in case anyone asks.

You would not need proof of your income to do a income affidavit at the US embassy. You swear an oath in front of the consular officer it is true and correct.

If immigration wanted back up proof you could show a Thai book showing the funds coming in or a statement from a US bank.

[xylophone]

9 minutes ago, attrayant said:

Part of my overseas income if from renting out my condo back in DC.  That technically makes me a landlord.  By any interpretation of the laws here, does that mean I'm working in Thailand?

 

I don't get anything official certifying the income from my renter, but I suppose I could print out a copy of my US checking account showing the monthly deposit in case anyone asks.

 

I have been in a similar situation previously, so I may be able to help on this: –

 

First of all you don't need to have the 800,000 baht in an account for any longer than three months in order to get the extension based on retirement, and as soon as you get it you can start drawing down on that 800,000 baht and just ensure that three months prior to your next visa extension date it is topped up to that amount.

 

I did this for many years and then decided to try the joint method whereby I would have some funds in the bank for three months and also have a letter from my embassy stating how much I was receiving from overseas, provided the total was 800,000 baht minimum.

 

With my embassy, I had to provide a letter from my government stating how much my income from my pension was, however I do believe that this is not necessary if you are a US citizen, because your embassy will issue a letter stating an income, based on what information you provide them and swearing that it is true (others may wish to verify this).

 

Don't worry about where the money comes from for the topping up because they are not really interested in that, or never have been since I have been doing it for around 11 years now, and as for your worry about being a landlord, I don't think this concerns them either.

 

Just as a rider, when I first did the joint funds in the bank/income method, I was a bit wary about encountering some difficulties with immigration officials, however it was smooth as silk and no questions asked.

[portroyal]

The problem with the embassy’s affidavit is that thais know it is given proofless

They will probabily ask in the future for the proof of foreign income really put monthly in the account

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, portroyal said:

The problem with the embassy’s affidavit is that thais know it is given proofless

They will probabily ask in the future for the proof of foreign income really put monthly in the account

Correct that one can swear falsely on this, depending on nationality.  But the "proof" part is tricky, because the law does not state that the full-amount must be transferred to Thailand - only that you have at least that amount of "income" in total.  If they begin demanding all the money be deposited into Thailand every month, many would either:

• Move all their money out and use the "O-A" visas, available from their home-consulates, which do not require any of the funds be in or transferred-to Thailand
• Use agents, which bypasses the financials entirely (would make corrupt immigration officials happy)
• "Circulate" money into their account, then out to somewhere, then back, to create "deposits" into the account being used to prove the income.

I live comfortably now on about 40K, which works for a marriage-extension.  But if we moved to my wife's property - where most costs are lower (she laughs at the costs of fruits/veggies here), and rent was non-existent - I could live well on far less. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by JackThompson

[bbbb1952]

19 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

But the 800K has to be there every year, untouched, does it not?  If you draw on it as income, then it won't be 800K by the time renewal comes around.  I am presently maintaining an 800-ish thousand balance for my retirement extension but I never touch it for fear of having it drop below the 800K level.  For my actual income and daily expenses, I am drawing on different sources.

Does any one get a good interest on there 800k yearly

[laislica]

23 hours ago, elviajero said:

On 28/10/2017 at 2:08 PM, attrayant said:

But the 800K has to be there every year, untouched, does it not?  If you draw on it as income, then it won't be 800K by the time renewal comes around.  I am presently maintaining an 800-ish thousand balance for my retirement extension but I never touch it for fear of having it drop below the 800K level.  For my actual income and daily expenses, I am drawing on different sources.

It has been known for offices to request more information if they see the money is untouched. So if you don't draw on the funds during the year it's possible that they will want proof of the "different sources". No big deal, but you should be aware of the possibility.

 

 

Spot on!
 

I keep 1 million in a savings account that gets reinvested automatically every 6 months. I get slightly better interest that way.

I do not touch it.

I too have an other account for our living expenses.

It shows money being brought into the country from overseas.

For the retirement extension, I always take both books with me - just in case.

So far, they have never asked to see the other book, but that probably depends on the area where we each live and how suspicious I act......

 

I could have a marriage ext, but that is more hassle than the retirement job so I stick with that.

EDIT

 

One question:

 

Does the 800K have to be in a single account?

I would guess they prefer it that way because it is easier for them to see if it ever dipped too low.

But, as long as it is clear that the total in various accounts stayed above the minimum, would that also be satisfactory?

We always have to have a letter from the Bank to say that my account held the correct level of funds for the 90 days.

With Kasikorn, I pay 100 BHT for the letter.

If I use the UK Embassy, I must also show them proof and pay in the region of 3,000 BHT for their letter, which is kept by Immigration.....

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by laislica

[ajarntingtong]

I am 69 y.o. on a marriage visa and have an Australian age pension. We have been together for eight years, and I am bringing money in a bit at a time to build a house on our land. I am sure that, marriage wise, we are rock solid. My wife is 15 years younger than me, and her family and I are 100%. I have been wondering about two issues:

1. If unfortunately she died before I did, what is required for a retirement visa? It seems that money in the bank would have to be THB 800K less annual Oz pension income. Am I correct?

2. In the preferred scenario, if I live to a ripe old age but in later years I am too infirm to travel 550 kms to the Oz Embassy to make the annual declaration, are there any arrangements in place to cover this situation? Or, for that matter, if I am unable to go to local Immigration for the annual renewal?

Edited October 29, 2017 by ajarntingtong

[serpent32]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:16 PM, ubonjoe said:

No it would not.

Number 1 is that it is not in a bank which is written in the police order and it would not allow immediate withdrawal without any delay.

I thought it was either 40,000 Baht a month Income or 400,000 Baht in the bank.  Have the rules changed?   I've never heard of an 800,000 K requirement.  

[BritTim]

54 minutes ago, serpent32 said:

On 10/28/2017 at 6:16 PM, ubonjoe said:

No it would not.

Number 1 is that it is not in a bank which is written in the police order and it would not allow immediate withdrawal without any delay.

I thought it was either 40,000 Baht a month Income or 400,000 Baht in the bank.  Have the rules changed?   I've never heard of an 800,000 K requirement.  

This thread is about retirement extensions. The rules are different for marriage extensions. However, in both cases, if using the money in the bank option, you can expect immigration to insist that it really is an account in a bank.

Edited October 29, 2017 by BritTim

[serpent32]

35 minutes ago, BritTim said:

This thread is about retirement extensions. The rules are different for marriage extensions. However, in both cases, if using the money in the bank option, you can expect immigration to insist that it really is an account in a bank.

Okay but isn't the minimum required amount 400,000 for either one?  

[BritTim]

43 minutes ago, serpent32 said:

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

This thread is about retirement extensions. The rules are different for marriage extensions. However, in both cases, if using the money in the bank option, you can expect immigration to insist that it really is an account in a bank.

Okay but isn't the minimum required amount 400,000 for either one?

No. For retirement, the requirement is 800,000 in a Thai bank, or income of 65,000 baht per month, or a combination where the bank balance plus income annualized is at least 800,000 baht.

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, ajarntingtong said:

I am 69 y.o. on a marriage visa and have an Australian age pension. We have been together for eight years, and I am bringing money in a bit at a time to build a house on our land. I am sure that, marriage wise, we are rock solid. My wife is 15 years younger than me, and her family and I are 100%. I have been wondering about two issues:

1. If unfortunately she died before I did, what is required for a retirement visa? It seems that money in the bank would have to be THB 800K less annual Oz pension income. Am I correct?

2. In the preferred scenario, if I live to a ripe old age but in later years I am too infirm to travel 550 kms to the Oz Embassy to make the annual declaration, are there any arrangements in place to cover this situation? Or, for that matter, if I am unable to go to local Immigration for the annual renewal?

 1. You would have until your current extension ends if she died to apply for an extension on a different basis. If you had a child from the marriage you could apply on that basis and the financial requirements would be the same. For retirement you would need a combination of money in a Thai bank and annual income totaling 800k baht.

2. For the statutory declaration at the embassy that is a difficult question to answer. The only people that a can answer that question is the consular section of the embassy. I think there would be some way to do it. For one embassy I am aware of you can make arrangements for a consular officer to visit you to do it by paying an hourly fee and their transportation for the trip.

For immigration it is not a problem for somebody to do it for you if you have a statement from a doctor that you cannot travel to do the extension.

[serpent32]

19 hours ago, BritTim said:

No. For retirement, the requirement is 800,000 in a Thai bank, or income of 65,000 baht per month, or a combination where the bank balance plus income annualized is at least 800,000 baht.

I've never heard that rule before ever.  It doesn't really matter to me regardless because if I ever decide to switch to a retirement visa which I'll probably never do my monthly pension income is over 132,777 Baht a month well over the minimum for both my marriage visa and a retirement visa.  

 

So it really doesn't matter to me it's just that I've read the rules on the Thai Embassy Websites and the posted rules are VERY CLEAR, 40,000 Baht a month income or 400,000 Baht in the bank minimum from what I read applies to the Non-Immigrant O Visa for both marriage and retirement.  And Thai Immigration just simply requires a Proof of Income Affidavit to verify whatever your income is, which is normally retirement income for most of us.  Like I said the posted rules on the Thai Embassy and Immigration Websites are very clear and simple but then I read a lot of contradictory information on this website except from a few people.  So I don't know maybe there are rules for other situations that I'm unaware of but I've also read a lot of misinformation on Thaivisas.  I subscribe to this website because I have gotten some good information from a few people but I've also read a lot of misinformation about a lot of different subjects and not just immigration rules.  So I've learned to take what I read on here with a grain of salt and just be glad that I don't have to worry about most of these things.  

Edited October 30, 2017 by serpent32

[serpent32]

OP if I were you I'd ask Thai immigration or just read the rules on the immigration or one of the Thai Embassy Websites because I've read SEVERAL different versions of what the rules are on this website over the years.  

[Jingthing]

Answer to the OP's question which has already been definitely and authoritatively answered by Ubonjoe.

NO! NO! NO!
It would not qualify. 

Don't bother researching that further.

You've got your answer.

Some issues are ambiguous. This one is not.

 

Next ...