Nothing gained in hounding the Shinawatras

[jayboy]

6 hours ago, halloween said:

 

The reasons for prosecution are completely irrelevant when the case is proven.

 

Domestically perhaps and the independence of the Thai judicial system is a matter on which there are varied opinions.

 

Internationally the reasons for prosecution - in the context of extradition - are extremely relevant, and therefore you are wrong about this.I am speaking here only of Western democracies and Japan.In summary if there is evidence of the case being political or inspired by vendetta, extradition will never be agreed even if technically there is an extraditable offence involved.As an example the UK in the past has refused to extradite known terrorists (Tamil Tigers a good example).

 

You might argue there is no vendetta, the political tag being just an excuse to avoid justice.Others might point to the headline of this thread.If even a main English language newspaper in Thailand in an editorial piece argues against hounding the Shinawatras it is quite hard to suggest that no such vendetta exists.

[Srikcir]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

the Army was, briefly, the white knight riding to the rescue.

More a camouflaged knight of medieval times riding to rescue the power of its own extrajudicial and extra-consitutional privileges. A rescue that has lasted now 3+ years and counting - almost as long as the term of an elected PM.

[tifino]

37 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

More a camouflaged knight of medieval times riding to rescue the power of its own extrajudicial and extra-consitutional privileges. A rescue that has lasted now 3+ years and counting - almost as long as the term of an elected PM.

 

The Inquisition, in that it was used to suppress those on the out

[candide]

2 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Matters to me and my post was just my response to the 'why bother chasing him' article.

 

Mass murder is a valid reason for pursuing someone.

 

As to no one outside of Thailand being interested, plenty of international bodies have reported on this example of extra judicial murder. 

 

That would imply interest. 

I agree with you that any event involving significant deaths should be extensively investigated, the war on drugs, and the 1973, 1992 and 2010 killings too.

But in this particular case, you do know, as most of us, why there will never be any investigation.

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, candide said:

I agree with you that any event involving significant deaths should be extensively investigated, the war on drugs, and the 1973, 1992 and 2010 killings too.

But in this particular case, you do know, as most of us, why there will never be any investigation.

True, but there should be.

[Eric Loh]

14 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

True, but there should be.

There were altogether 3 investigations. We can ruled out the 2003 investigation by the police as they may be bias. Post 2006 coup government opened up the investigation and so did Ahbisit during his tenure. Nothing was heard of the commissions. Maybe they couldn't find a link to Thaksin. They sure will like that. Or maybe those police officers investigated have very powerful friends. 

[sjaak327]

7 hours ago, halloween said:

But who is displaying it? Thaksin's absence has prevented him being charged with most of his serious crimes, a situation now being remedied by new legislation. Were you not aware of that vfacet of Thai law which prevented criminals being charged in absentia?

Yet that new legislation (note the fact that applying this retroactive to cases a decade old is yet another definitive proof of what the article is alluding to) will not be used to persue the war on drugs case. And the reasons have been pointed out by the person to whom you responded. He quite clearly shows a much better understanding of how this country works than you. Maybe it is time to listen to clearer minds for once...

[Bluespunk]

10 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

There were altogether 3 investigations. We can ruled out the 2003 investigation by the police as they may be bias. Post 2006 coup government opened up the investigation and so did Ahbisit during his tenure. Nothing was heard of the commissions. Maybe they couldn't find a link to Thaksin. They sure will like that. Or maybe those police officers investigated have very powerful friends. 

Couldn't find a link to thaksin?

 

Funniest thing I've heard all week, cheers for that.

 

As to powerful friends preventing any investigation, because effects more than the puppet master, there I agree.

[stephen tracy]

13 hours ago, darksidedog said:

Prayut knows he will never get either of them back. The whole exercise in futility is simply smoke and mirrors to keep the peasants limited minds thinking that he is actually trying.

Total waste of everyones time and makes the country look stupid. Thailand has always been good at shooting itself in the foot though, so no big surprise there.

He doesn't want them back. 

[stephen tracy]

12 hours ago, halloween said:

There is a lot to be gained by letting politicians know that criminal abuse of their position will lead to lengthy incarceration or self-exile to escape it.  Let us agree that Yingluck’s rice-subsidy scheme cost the country billions of baht, let us agree that quite a lot of that ended up in the pockets of the Shinawatras and their cronies, should we just forget about it until the next crooked politician does the same or something similar?

The current "government" is doing the same thing now.  And they are doing at the behest of the elites they serve. 

[stephen tracy]

11 hours ago, halloween said:

TYVM for your flame. I won't point out how puerile the "Little Johnny did it too!" argument is, because it is blatantly obvious. Some prosecution is a far larger deterrent than none, and there are few more blatantly corrupt than the Shinawatras, or more deserving of it. Their blatant corruption and wasteful vote-buying policies have cost my family dearly in infrastructure and improvement of this country.

While in office they avoid prosecution by buying bent police, appointing family members to high BIB positions and attempted bribery of judges. When they are finally booted, sycophants moan about unfair treatment.

The reasons for prosecution are completely irrelevant when the case is proven.

 

So corruption by one gang of criminals is ok but not ok for the other gang you have a pathological obsession with.  Basically, what you're saying is double standards is just fine.

[stephen tracy]

11 hours ago, halloween said:

No they don't get a pass, they are simply irrelevant to the criminals being discussed. If you choose to believe that the coup cost the country more than the rice scam, or that the Shinawatras didn't profit from that scam, up to you. Many others believe things that defy logic.

Any study of the rise and fall of Apichart, a favoured criminal given enormous levels of preferential treatment, involved in every level of the rice scam and G2G scam and now serving a very long sentence, would indicate otherwise.

No one really knows yet just how much the coup is going to cost this country in terms of money and/or blood yet.  But no one  - apart from the extremely naïve  few - does not know that the junta was installed to maintain the system of patronage so the elites can continue looting.  I repeat: Strap saddles to the backs of the poor and build jails for anyone that complains about it. It's ok for the elites to steal, this is merely "Thainess", but if anyone else does it, watch out.  And for the 100th time Halloween, when are you going to address my question on where Prayut acquired his wealth?  I don't expect an answer to that by the way, just a deflection involving grains. 

[stephen tracy]

11 hours ago, halloween said:

But who is displaying it? Thaksin's absence has prevented him being charged with most of his serious crimes, a situation now being remedied by new legislation. Were you not aware of that vfacet of Thai law which prevented criminals being charged in absentia?

Nothing is being remedied, it's being exacerbated. 

[stephen tracy]

11 hours ago, halloween said:

But who is displaying it? Thaksin's absence has prevented him being charged with most of his serious crimes, a situation now being remedied by new legislation. Were you not aware of that vfacet of Thai law which prevented criminals being charged in absentia?

 

11 hours ago, halloween said:

But who is displaying it? Thaksin's absence has prevented him being charged with most of his serious crimes, a situation now being remedied by new legislation. Were you not aware of that vfacet of Thai law which prevented criminals being charged in absentia?

It doesn't make sense to have criminals prosecuting criminals.  It's little more than a mafia turf war. You just happen to support one mafia over another for some strange reason.  

[stephen tracy]

5 hours ago, jayboy said:

Domestically perhaps and the independence of the Thai judicial system is a matter on which there are varied opinions.

 

Internationally the reasons for prosecution - in the context of extradition - are extremely relevant, and therefore you are wrong about this.I am speaking here only of Western democracies and Japan.In summary if there is evidence of the case being political or inspired by vendetta, extradition will never be agreed even if technically there is an extraditable offence involved.As an example the UK in the past has refused to extradite known terrorists (Tamil Tigers a good example).

 

You might argue there is no vendetta, the political tag being just an excuse to avoid justice.Others might point to the headline of this thread.If even a main English language newspaper in Thailand in an editorial piece argues against hounding the Shinawatras it is quite hard to suggest that no such vendetta exists.

Halloween suggests that "The reasons for prosecution are completely irrelevant..."  I think that says it all really.

[candide]

13 hours ago, halloween said:

No they don't get a pass, they are simply irrelevant to the criminals being discussed. If you choose to believe that the coup cost the country more than the rice scam, or that the Shinawatras didn't profit from that scam, up to you. Many others believe things that defy logic.

Any study of the rise and fall of Apichart, a favoured criminal given enormous levels of preferential treatment, involved in every level of the rice scam and G2G scam and now serving a very long sentence, would indicate otherwise.

There are figures showing well the cost of the coup.

 

According to different sources (BOT, IMF, World Bank, Thai Chamber of Commerce...), the intial forecast for 2014's GDP was between 4.0 and 5.2%, (made at the end of 2013). (After 7.2% growth rate in 2012)

http://www.mfa.go.th/business/contents/files/eco-factsheet-20131220-100445-235435.pdf

 

The GDP growth in 2014 was only .08%, so depending of the initial forecast chosen, it's a loss of between 3.2% and 4.4% of GDP.

That is a loss of GDP between 419 billion baht and 576 billion baht. So it's in the same range as the loss from the rice scheme.

 

The difference is that the rice scheme money went into the Thai economy (even if it was not the best way to do it), while the evaporated GDP growth is completely lost for everyone.

 

If you cumukate the GDP losses in following years, the coup cost far more than the rice scheme.

[stephen tracy]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

There are figures showing well the cost of the coup.

 

According to different sources (BOT, IMF, World Bank, Thai Chamber of Commerce...), the intial forecast for 2014's GDP was between 4.0 and 5.2%, (made at the end of 2013). (After 7.2% growth rate in 2012)

http://www.mfa.go.th/business/contents/files/eco-factsheet-20131220-100445-235435.pdf

 

The GDP growth in 2014 was only .08%, so depending of the initial forecast chosen, it's a loss of between 3.2% and 4.4% of GDP.

That is a loss of GDP between 419 billion baht and 576 billion baht. So it's in the same range as the loss from the rice scheme.

 

The difference is that the rice scheme money went into the Thai economy (even if it was not the best way to do it), while the evaporated GDP growth is completely lost for everyone.

 

If you cumukate the GDP losses in following years, the coup cost far more than the rice scheme.

Indeed Candide, I concur. Also, we really don't know what the coup will cost Thailand (not just financially) in the future.  Society seems more divided than ever.... and more fearful. 

[Chris Lawrence]

Still unable to talk about the elephant in the room. To do this would land u straight in goal for a few years, but the discussion need to be had.

 

The current Prime Minister main aim is to shame and blame, mostly on his words and that of the Kangaroo Judges. What is happening now is on par with what has happened before.

 

The circus has been in operation for years. A gentleman I spoke to in the early 1970's told me of a Malaysian party he went too. He was an ex-navy Commander and all the top Malaysian brass were there. The brass couldn't help but boast on the backhanders they were getting for service to the country.

 

The shins are the paupers to what is happening now in Thailand. The number of new developments, defence contracts, maintaining a hold over most industries in particular the banking sector. Has anyone been able to get hold of these new contracts? Where is the money coming from or who arranges the finance? Jobs for the boys is not right in a Government frame work. The lack of transparency?

 

If you have the answers too what is going on in the government, not the rhetoric that this journalist is trying to baffle you with, then let us all know, and most will put their tail between their legs and move on.

 

The shame game is happening, and propaganda is the weapon of choice. You cant believe everything you read

 

 

[halloween]

2 hours ago, candide said:

There are figures showing well the cost of the coup.

 

According to different sources (BOT, IMF, World Bank, Thai Chamber of Commerce...), the intial forecast for 2014's GDP was between 4.0 and 5.2%, (made at the end of 2013). (After 7.2% growth rate in 2012)

http://www.mfa.go.th/business/contents/files/eco-factsheet-20131220-100445-235435.pdf

 

The GDP growth in 2014 was only .08%, so depending of the initial forecast chosen, it's a loss of between 3.2% and 4.4% of GDP.

That is a loss of GDP between 419 billion baht and 576 billion baht. So it's in the same range as the loss from the rice scheme.

 

The difference is that the rice scheme money went into the Thai economy (even if it was not the best way to do it), while the evaporated GDP growth is completely lost for everyone.

 

If you cumukate the GDP losses in following years, the coup cost far more than the rice scheme.

So it would have been better to allow PTP to borrow their proposed B2.2 trillion to allow their scam to continue? Just how big a loss/theft is necessary before taking action?

[sjaak327]

5 minutes ago, halloween said:

So it would have been better to allow PTP to borrow their proposed B2.2 trillion to allow their scam to continue? Just how big a loss/theft is necessary before taking action?

The scam was actually a policy that PT used in their campaign and that resulted in a landslide election victory. That policy was carried out by a 300/500 mandate in the lower house. Action could and should have been taken by the Thai electorate, not by a few nutty generals without a mandate and without any relevant knowledge to run this country, as the post you responded too underlines once more.

[Dave67]

Stick that up your Junta, things are changing faster than expected

Edited November 1, 2017 by Dave67

[halloween]

24 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

The scam was actually a policy that PT used in their campaign and that resulted in a landslide election victory. That policy was carried out by a 300/500 mandate in the lower house. Action could and should have been taken by the Thai electorate, not by a few nutty generals without a mandate and without any relevant knowledge to run this country, as the post you responded too underlines once more.

And there you have the problem. A majority of the Thai voters would have very likely accepted the bribe, even though it was ruinous for their nation, and again voted for PTP, allowing the losses and theft to continue. What price do we pay for democracy?

[sjaak327]

18 minutes ago, halloween said:

And there you have the problem. A majority of the Thai voters would have very likely accepted the bribe, even though it was ruinous for their nation, and again voted for PTP, allowing the losses and theft to continue. What price do we pay for democracy?

The highest price. As already pointed out to you, the costs of the coup is quite a bit higher and no end in sight.

 

And that only touches on the financial/economical aspects. 

 

And make no illusions, this isn't typical Thai either, happens all around the world. Politicians that only do what is in their country's best interest tend to not gain all that many votes anywhere on the planet.

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

The highest price. As already pointed out to you, the costs of the coup is quite a bit higher and no end in sight.

 

And that only touches on the financial/economical aspects. 

 

And make no illusions, this isn't typical Thai either, happens all around the world. Politicians that only do what is in their country's best interest tend to not gain all that many votes anywhere on the planet.

But you won't consider the cost of allowing PTP to govern, right? Because that doesn't fit your agenda.

Thai democracy was a demonstrable failure that required modification, a process now under way. You would have it that the coup is too expensive, but the cost of improving democracy is not considered.

[stephen tracy]

4 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

The highest price. As already pointed out to you, the costs of the coup is quite a bit higher and no end in sight.

 

And that only touches on the financial/economical aspects. 

 

And make no illusions, this isn't typical Thai either, happens all around the world. Politicians that only do what is in their country's best interest tend to not gain all that many votes anywhere on the planet.

It's not worth replying to halloween's infantile commentary (I use the term loosely).  His obsession with the Shins is pathological.  I think he actually blocked seeing my responses to him because I kept asking him how he supposed Prayut and Co. amassed such wealth on military salaries, and he consistently dodged the question.  Because he knows, just as everyone else knows, how they got so rich, he just can't bear to admit that his man-child hero is nothing but a delusional, narcissistic thief who runs the country like a mafia boss. Even worse than the Taksin. 

[sjaak327]

Just now, halloween said:

But you won't consider the cost of allowing PTP to govern, right? Because that doesn't fit your agenda.

Thai democracy was a demonstrable failure that required modification, a process now under way. You would have it that the coup is too expensive, but the cost of improving democracy is not considered.

I did consider it. The democracy in Thailand was fine, especially the version under the 1997 constitution. The only problem is the inability of very few but powerfull citizens to accept the results. 

 

These very same citizens are not improving the democracy, they are ensuring they have continued influence without having to seek a mandate. Read the approved constitution to understand what I am referring to. Even your buddy Abhisit called it "a retreat from democracy. Even he could not approve, that says it all.

[candide]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

So it would have been better to allow PTP to borrow their proposed B2.2 trillion to allow their scam to continue? Just how big a loss/theft is necessary before taking action?

Apparently, it has stimulated ideas......

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/ncpos-economic-board-approves-3-trillion-baht-infrastructure-projects/

[steven100]

Thailand continues to move forward with economic stability and continued growth through the work of Khun Prayuth Chan O Cha and the Junta in government. New projects have been fast tracked which include the HSRP Thai-China high speed rail project, Nth Thailand highway expansion, Thailand flood mitigation project and many more.

This government continues to work with the Thai people to ensure an open and transparent government and it's focus now is on assisting the poor in rural Thailand with the government subsidies and health programs being implemented.

[halloween]

20 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

I did consider it. The democracy in Thailand was fine, especially the version under the 1997 constitution. The only problem is the inability of very few but powerfull citizens to accept the results. 

 

These very same citizens are not improving the democracy, they are ensuring they have continued influence without having to seek a mandate. Read the approved constitution to understand what I am referring to. Even your buddy Abhisit called it "a retreat from democracy. Even he could not approve, that says it all.

It was fine? Worthless vote-buying populism, government by proxy from a criminal, MPs paid to vote to order, criminals appointed by party list, police suborned - how is that fine?

[stephen tracy]

5 minutes ago, steven100 said:

Thailand continues to move forward with economic stability and continued growth through the work of Khun Prayuth Chan O Cha and the Junta in government. New projects have been fast tracked which include the HSRP Thai-China high speed rail project, Nth Thailand highway expansion, Thailand flood mitigation project and many more.

This government continues to work with the Thai people to ensure an open and transparent government and it's focus now is on assisting the poor in rural Thailand with the government subsidies and health programs being implemented.

This post made laugh so much my stomach hurts. Until I realized you weren't kidding.