Gunman opens fire at Texas church, killing at least 20

[dunroaming]

10 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Apart from that, having your home burglarized, even when you're not there, is very unsettling

Yes it is but to intentionally kill someone for stealing from you is far more unsettling don't you think?  Maybe you feel the death sentence for robbery is fair enough?

[connda]

Let's ban all law abiding citizen from having guns; then only criminals will have guns!  And then if criminals massacre people in mass shooting, well, then ban black market weapons and ban criminals too.  That should do it by golly.  And take sharp object away from civilians. No more silverware except for blunt spoons.  And civilian should only be allowed to ride bicycles.  No more motorized vehicles for the masses.  Too dangerous.  And it's time to insert tracking chips in all citizens with capacitor that will immobilized suspected offenders and potential dissents.  We must have safety above all else.  Liberty is too dangerous for the average citizens who all must all be under the watchful eye of our benevolent governments. Conform.  Obey.  Disarm!

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, connda said:

Let's ban all law abiding citizen from having guns; then only criminals will have guns!  And then if criminals massacre people in mass shooting, well, then ban black market weapons and ban criminals too.  That should do it by golly.  And take sharp object away from civilians. No more silverware except for blunt spoons.  And civilian should only be allowed to ride bicycles.  No more motorized vehicles for the masses.  Too dangerous.  And it's time to insert tracking chips in all citizens with capacitor that will immobilized suspected offenders and potential dissents.  We must have safety above all else.  Liberty is too dangerous for the average citizens who all must all be under the watchful eye of our benevolent governments. Conform.  Obey.  Disarm!

A great example of the EXTREMIST pro gun propaganda.

Sad. 

[DM07]

10 minutes ago, connda said:

Let's ban all law abiding citizen from having guns; then only criminals will have guns!  And then if criminals massacre people in mass shooting, well, then ban black market weapons and ban criminals too.  That should do it by golly.  And take sharp object away from civilians. No more silverware except for blunt spoons.  And civilian should only be allowed to ride bicycles.  No more motorized vehicles for the masses.  Too dangerous.  And it's time to insert tracking chips in all citizens with capacitor that will immobilized suspected offenders and potential dissents.  We must have safety above all else.  Liberty is too dangerous for the average citizens who all must all be under the watchful eye of our benevolent governments. Conform.  Obey.  Disarm!

God, I hope that was sarcasm!

Otherwise it may be some of the dumbest BS, I have written on this thread so far!

If it is not sarcasm: does connda stand for Alex Jones or something?

Grow up, please!

[connda]

34 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A great example of the EXTREMIST pro gun propaganda.

Sad. 

Disarm all citizen before it's too late and the nut-job right-wing, fascist, extremist, haters start a civil war with our good, patriotic American brethren.  God Bless Nancy Pelosi and her efforts to rid the streets of these vile instruments of death and destruction.  Congress and the Senate must act before it's too late.  Write to you congressmen and women and demand a nation-wide gun ban.  Stop the madness!!!

Edited November 6, 2017 by connda

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Very good point, but then again there are v few countries where a large (?) percentage of the population were armed, that had to defend against an obviously tyrannical govt.?

Philippines under Marcos. Guns were rampant. But it was peaceful people power, the church (and the withdrawal of American support) that finally brought him down.

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

ha! You figure a drug addled addict is going to try to figure that out before attempting a robbery?

You could always resort to thoughts and prayers, when you are getting robbed OR you will never get robbed because of your thoughts and prayers.

[wwest5829]

55 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And there you have it

 

As a Brit, I don't really care if someone goes to the trouble of breaking in while I'm not there and taking the TV. I'll get a new one on insurance.

 

As an American, you would rather kill.

 

Maybe in another couple of hundred years you'll think differently.

 

 

Verifies that Americans and Brits speak a singular language differently...or maybe not. Want to reread? You say if they take your TV and you are not there. I say if they break-in which threatens me or mine. Obviously, we would have to be at home for me to defend life and limb. Nowhere did I say or imply that if they broke in while no one was home, I also would not be filing with insurance. The handgun I own is only to defend my home and those who live there.

[rosst]

5 hours ago, mikebike said:

Another master of false equivalence... Do nothing, everything kills...

 

On another note I just got my concealed carry license for my F150. I like to have my truck on me in case someone attacks me in my office with a U-Haul rental... LOL!!!

Thanks for your comments, perhaps some workable solution would be nice. 

[farcanell]

8 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Verifies that Americans and Brits speak a singular language differently...or maybe not. Want to reread? You say if they take your TV and you are not there. I say if they break-in which threatens me or mine. Obviously, we would have to be at home for me to defend life and limb. Nowhere did I say or imply that if they broke in while no one was home, I also would not be filing with insurance. The handgun I own is only to defend my home and those who live there.

Is the gun locked in the safe that those dastardly burglars are trying to steal from?

[55Jay]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

Yes it is but to intentionally kill someone for stealing from you is far more unsettling don't you think?  Maybe you feel the death sentence for robbery is fair enough?

Oh dear, the old making shit up, false attribution put 'em on the defense guilt trip, eh?

 

First off, I didn't say that.  I was merely pointing out the likely intent of WWEST 5829, which Grouse surely knew, but decided to ignore in order to perform the same act of mental gymnastics you did.

 

Secondly, I'm a multiple gun owner (in the US) but I haven't lived there for 20 years.  Time, distance and an unsettling change in the socio-economic and political landscape, has cause me to shift in support of more gun control, up to and including a total ban - at least for a period of time.  Easy for me to say being way over here but IMO, there's no way in hell a few more gun control band-aid measures will have any meaningful impact at this point.  You gotta wipe the slate clean on this one, get your arms around it, and start again.  Pie in the sky. 

 

Finally, and to your point, yes..... if I was in the US and had a gun at hand when 1 or more thugs broke in to my house, I would warn them, if they gave me that opportunity, but the line between that and use of deadly force is very narrow, but totally up to them.    I have been in this situation before.  Thankfully he made the right decision and ran off into the night.   I consider that a win, and an ideal home-defense scenario.

Edited November 6, 2017 by 55Jay

[wwest5829]

3 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Is the gun locked in the safe that those dastardly burglars are trying to steal from?

Defeats the purpose, does it not? The other six firearms (Father's shotgun and pistol - inherited, my shotgun for small game hunting, 30-30 for Deer, another pistol, ah, yes, a fold down 22 rifle - that was your fault! James Bond had one!) were locked in the gun cabinet. Does that count? What safe? You seem to want me to be defending property or goods when I have emphasized ...for protection of life and limb. May I observe that Bobbies have taken to "packin", its a different world than what we might prefer.

[mikebike]

25 minutes ago, rosst said:

Thanks for your comments, perhaps some workable solution would be nice. 

Aaaw, isn't that cute. You think TVF is for finding solutions. Hahahaha!!

 

Years of debate and lightyears of copy given over to this by much better minds than we have here have found no solution yet.

 

If you concentrated on my post(s) rather than your gotcha you would clearly see my ideology and and the solutions I would support.

[Skywalker69]

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Absolutely serious.  Pandora's box is already open.  How would you go about getting the 300 million guns away from the bad guys along with the good guys?  Maybe the good guys will turn theirs in...  But that leaves them defenseless against the bad guys who can declare open season to burglarize all the undefended homes.

 

And thus the popular myth about how precarious the balance is between the good guys with guns 'holding the fort' and the bad guys with guns 'open season' is perpetuated.

 

This while ignoring the obvious fact that it's the mentally disturbed, sick and psychotic gun owners that cause the overwhelming majority of these daily atrocities. All because some want see gun ownership as the primary enabler of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" and think that ANY gun ownership restrictions is the thin edge of some government wedge to totally deprive you of any rights.

 

But go ahead and block mid-easterners of a certain religion from getting anywhere near the country and dismantle and hide the statues of long-dead southern generals if it makes you feel more secure.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, 55Jay said:

I think he meant when he's home and somebody breaks in.  Not being at home is, obviously, a different scenario.

 

Apart from that, having your home burglarized, even when you're not there, is very unsettling. 

Certainly, no need to keep an arsenal of weapons on the off chance though

[55Jay]

 

16 minutes ago, Skywalker69 said:

Key diff is your average god fearing rifle toting American's intent is to defend status quo and retain existing rights.  The Jihad types want to impose their brand of change.  Subtle nuance but right, you can't help but giggle at the correlation when you start going down the list.  There's an amusing DarkMatter vid on this.   

[dunroaming]

And this thread has just become another pro versus anti gun rant.  Nothing will change.  The USA is a violent country and people just don't want to move on from their ridiculous cowboy and indian roots.  For a forward looking creative people there sure are a lot of dinosaurs out there.

[William T]

Quote;- " And, it is "too soon" to talk about gun control. "

 

Yes how dare people talk about gun control now when people are grieving, so say the NRA controlled spokespersons on Fox News.

 

I seem to remember they said the same thing after the Las Vegas massacre (and others).  Yes  wait a bit till people have forgotten about it and there are new things to think about, like NFL players kneeling and Harvey Weinstein.

 

Just as all teachers should be armed to prevent school massacres, all pastors should be armed so that they can take-out any would be assassins. A machine gun mounted on the pulpit will make any terrorist think twice before attacking a church.

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

Oh dear, the old making shit up, false attribution put 'em on the defense guilt trip, eh?

 

First off, I didn't say that.  I was merely pointing out the likely intent of WWEST 5829, which Grouse surely knew, but decided to ignore in order to perform the same act of mental gymnastics you did.

 

Secondly, I'm a multiple gun owner (in the US) but I haven't lived there for 20 years.  Time, distance and an unsettling change in the socio-economic and political landscape, has cause me to shift in support of more gun control, up to and including a total ban - at least for a period of time.  Easy for me to say being way over here but IMO, there's no way in hell a few more gun control band-aid measures will have any meaningful impact at this point.  You gotta wipe the slate clean on this one, get your arms around it, and start again.  Pie in the sky. 

 

Finally, and to your point, yes..... if I was in the US and had a gun at hand when 1 or more thugs broke in to my house, I would warn them, if they gave me that opportunity, but the line between that and use of deadly force is very narrow, but totally up to them.    I have been in this situation before.  Thankfully he made the right decision and ran off into the night.   I consider that a win, and an ideal home-defense scenario.

I was disturbed in the night with my wife and kids upstairs. I charged downstairs yelling blue murder and two youths cleared off with me running naked down the garden. It must have been horrible for them! ( they were attempting to steal a VHS video recorder) ?

[JCauto]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Thoughts and prayers are 100 percent USELESS!

Now IS the time yet AGAIN to talk about gun control.

And again and again and again and again and again ..

Dude, people are wise now to the right wing B.S. about the timing of talking about gun control.

These mass shootings are a constant!

The gun nuts game is that there is NO TIME ever to talk about it.

 

I guess my sarcasm was lost on you. 

I would only note that it took the Orange One less than an hour or so after my post to use the "mental illness" excuse.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

And this thread has just become another pro versus anti gun rant.  Nothing will change.  The USA is a violent country and people just don't want to move on from their ridiculous cowboy and indian roots.  For a forward looking creative people there sure are a lot of dinosaurs out there.

Yes. On the three occasions I lived there, I always felt American civilisation was a very thin veneer.

[tweedledee2]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

Not being an arse... but is there any country in the world where armed citizens defended themselves from a tyrannical government successfully?

To answer your assinine question I will give you two, The United States of America and Scotland. The rest you can find with Google.

[JCauto]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Switzerland has very high gun possession. Yet we don't hear of mass shootings and killings there.

 

It's isn't the guns per se. It's far greater than that. Drugs, films and computer games glorifying violence, guns and murder, and lack of mental health care. The world is changing at an ever increasing rate. Not all humans can deal well with that complexity and uncertainty. 

Banning guns, knives and any weapons will be as effective as banning drugs. Seek new solutions.

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

 

This is a good summary of the difference between Switzerland and the USA in terms of guns. Note though that they ban concealed weapons and people with criminal records and mental health problems are not allowed to own guns. There's a limit of 3 per person. You have to get a permit from the government to own one. 

 

If those rules were in place, I think it would be a step in the right direction. Would you be opposed to any of those measures?

[55Jay]

Just now, Grouse said:

I was disturbed in the night with my wife and kids upstairs. I charged downstairs yelling blue murder and two youths cleared off with me running naked down the garden. It must have been horrible for them! ( they were attempting to steal a VHS video recorder) ?

Yeah, well, I lived on a nice street, but it was on the edge of the Grape Street Crips' territory.   Older areas of San Diego are funny like that.   Never had any problems other than that one time though, the gangstas usually sailed through on their way elsewhere.   Sadly, I was always in a state of mental/physical readiness due to my line of work at the time.  Fair odds an unwelcome guest wasn't interested in my VCR.  

[Grouse]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_SR-556

 

Here's a picture of the type of semEYE used

 

Isnt it great! I'll bet it makes a terrific noise! I wonder if he had a genuine Ruger strap? Now that would impress the ladies!!

 

Probably was a total softy. Needed his manhood supported one suspects

[mikebike]

41 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

 

Key diff is your average god fearing rifle toting American's intent is to defend status quo and retain existing rights.  The Jihad types want to impose their brand of change.  Subtle nuance but right, you can't help but giggle at the correlation when you start going down the list.  There's an amusing DarkMatter vid on this.   

Strangely though the status quo the gun toting christian right wishes to defend looks a lot like the theocracy the jihadist's wish to impose!! LOL!!

[55Jay]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Certainly, no need to keep an arsenal of weapons on the off chance though

Meh, you like to chuck around emotive terms like arsenal to make the contrast sound more dramatic and put people in 1 of  2 boxes. 

 

But I agree in practice, you don't need an ARSENAL, unless you're an octopus. 1, max 2, if home defense is the motivation.

 

[55Jay]

7 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Strangely though the status quo the gun toting christian right wishes to defend looks a lot like the theocracy the jihadist's wish to impose!! LOL!!

I know, some of them do.  Didn't I say that?  LOL. 

[55Jay]

It's a mess.  Need an independent, trusted referee between the two factions to blow the whistle and get everyone to shut up, sit down and listen.

 

  TIME THE <deleted> OUT, PEOPLE!  

 

That used to be the President of the United States, in theory, but we've not had one who could pull it off.  The division and derision just gets worse.  At times, I'm thankful to be living in a relatively calm, Junta led country.