What is the law on TM - 30, Re overnight travel within Thailand ?

[elviajero]

On 11/13/2017 at 2:33 AM, BritTim said:

It should, according to the letter of the law, be 24 hours from when you arrive in Chiang Mai province. It is obviously pretty difficult to prove when that was (unless, perhaps, you take a domestic flight to Chiang Mai). However, I think even the most bloody minded official is going to take your word for it if you file within 48 hours of arrival in Bangkok.

It is 24 hours of arriving at the property you're staying at, not the province.

[elviajero]

On 11/13/2017 at 2:40 AM, sandyf said:

You may think it is crystal clear but it is fairly obvious that it is not to many others.

"Every time you stay somewhere someone is responsible for reporting that stay."

For those that stay somewhere on a long term basis does that mean someone must report every time you leave the building and then return or does it mean someone must report the first time you arrive.

The act does not differentiate between staying at a private residence or a hotel. If someone stayed in 10 different hotels, over 10 consecutive nights, each of the hotels are legally bound to make 10 separate reports. If you agree with that fact then you must agree that the exact same principle applies if the foreigner stayed in 10 different private residences. Fortunately immigration do not enforce this law to the letter of the law. Unfortunately, at offices where enforcement exists it varies.

 

On 11/13/2017 at 2:40 AM, sandyf said:

It is an unfortunate fact of this forum that there is a tendency to focus on literal text rather than context. There are under 30,000 words in the Thai language and nearly 200,000 in the the English language. Any written translation is always going to be open to interpretation and certainly never "crystal clear".

The "context" of Section 38 is to track the whereabouts of all foreigners as they move around Thailand, which is very simple to understand. 

[berybert]

Some people worry far to much. I came into the country 4 months ago and spent the first night in a hotel before moving into my condo the following day. When I did my 90 day report the lady behind the desk shook her head a few times and scrunched her face a bit. She then gave me my passport back and off I went. 

Why follow the law in a country that doesn't understand the laws they write. 

Its not possible. Just smile and be nice. 

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, elviajero said:

The act does not differentiate between staying at a private residence or a hotel. If someone stayed in 10 different hotels, over 10 consecutive nights, each of the hotels are legally bound to make 10 separate reports. If you agree with that fact then you must agree that the exact same principle applies if the foreigner stayed in 10 different private residences. Fortunately immigration do not enforce this law to the letter of the law. Unfortunately, at offices where enforcement exists it varies.

 

The "context" of Section 38 is to track the whereabouts of all foreigners as they move around Thailand, which is very simple to understand. 

And under that same context a foreigner that leaves Thailand and returns to the same address in Thailand is not moving around Thailand.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

And under that same context a foreigner that leaves Thailand and returns to the same address in Thailand is not moving around Thailand.

When they leave the country their permission to stay ends, as does their stay in the last registered property. It would be pretty difficult to stay continuously in a property in Thailand having left the country. The immigration record would show them as leaving.

 

When they return they are issued with a new temporary permit to stay and the process of reporting starts again. The fact that the person returns to the same address is irrelevant, because the law says that someone should report their arrival/stay.

 

Every time someone enters the country they receive a new permit to stay and the law says that someone must report their arrival/stay at the property they are staying at. If they subsequently move around in Thailand someone at each place they stay should report. It's that simple and expats aren't excluded from the law.

[sandyf]

On 11/14/2017 at 8:52 PM, elviajero said:

The "context" of Section 38 is to track the whereabouts of all foreigners as they move around Thailand, which is very simple to understand. 

My last reply was interrupted so I will finish.

I have had a yellow book for the same address since May 2010 so it would be out of context to consider that I move around Thailand.

Do you you really think that it is in the context of the police order to try and track foreigners that remain at the same address for years on end.

As I said previously, too much emphasis on literal text.

[Maestro]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As I said previously, too much emphasis on literal text.

 

The topic title asks "What is the law...?" and consequently this topic is par force a discussion of the literal text of the law.

 

That implementation and enforcement of this particular section of the law varies widely from one immigration office to the next is another story and a discussion of the relevant details at a specific office would have to be the subject of a new topic.

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

The topic title asks "What is the law...?" and consequently this topic is par force a discussion of the literal text of the law.

 

You are making an assumption on the literal text in question.

There are under 30,000 words in the Thai language and nearly 200,000 in the the English language. Any written translation is always going to be open to interpretation.

If an office interprets the law.any law, differently, who is to say they have got it wrong, certainly no one on this forum. It is fairly obvious that the forum members have interpretations, on various laws, that they prefer and wish to acknowledge as fact.

[Maestro]

Ask three different lawyers and you get five different opinions, I like to say, and I mean this not based on an English translation but on the original Thai text.

[Mac98]

On 11/10/2017 at 1:10 AM, elviajero said:

Yes, they could charge up to 2,000 baht under the law. TM.30 reporting is supposed to track the whereabouts of each foreigner. When you arrive at a hotel/residence someone is supposed to report you've arrived, but they don't report that you have left. It's the responsibility of someone at the next address to report you've arrived (moved on), and so on.

 

They can insist that someone at the property a foreigner lives at makes a report every time they return from staying at another address in the country. Most offices don't enforce the law in full.

 

Here is the law concerning address reporting:

Immigration Act

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with the law concerned.

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival.

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division.

Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General.

 

 

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for each day which passes until the law is complied with.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht to 10,000 Baht.

 

 

 

Can I have that in English?

[elviajero]

17 hours ago, sandyf said:

My last reply was interrupted so I will finish.

I have had a yellow book for the same address since May 2010 so it would be out of context to consider that I move around Thailand.

Do you you really think that it is in the context of the police order to try and track foreigners that remain at the same address for years on end.

As I said previously, too much emphasis on literal text.

Your yellow book is irrelevant. That's simply a record of your registration at the local Amphoe, and does not exempt you from any immigration reporting laws being enforced.

 

If you permanently change your address (move) you have to inform immigration. If you temporarily change your address (move around) you are not required, as a general rule, to report to the police/immigration. That law isn't, as a general rule, enforced. However, if you 'move around' someone at the properties you stay at is responsible for reporting that you're staying at their address. That would include when you return to your 'permanent address' otherwise the TM.30 reporting system would still show you as staying at the last address reported. The law (out of date and not fit for purpose) is there to 'LITERALLY track your whereabouts'.

Edited November 16, 2017 by elviajero

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, Maestro said:

Ask three different lawyers and you get five different opinions, I like to say, and I mean this not based on an English translation but on the original Thai text.

Ambiguity is the curse of every language and English is no exception, hence the need for 'legalese' . If people were forced to read the T&C's very little would ever be sold.

Until the Thais adopt a more formal writing standard it will always be open to interpretation.

[toots]

Hi everybody i have just found out my landlady has never submitted a tm30 for me. I have lived here 2 years have a retirement extension and do my 90 days with this address. Is this a problem for my landlady or me. Cheers

[InMyShadow]

A question. my last 90 day was done in bangkok. I'm currently staying in a Pattaya condotel one month.

I assume the hotel reported but do I need to fill out any forms when I report to Pattaya immigration?

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, toots said:

Hi everybody i have just found out my landlady has never submitted a tm30 for me. I have lived here 2 years have a retirement extension and do my 90 days with this address. Is this a problem for my landlady or me. Cheers

It depends on your local immigration office. If you are in Bangkok, it is not (at the current time) an issue.

[InMyShadow]

It depends on your local immigration office. If you are in Bangkok, it is not (at the current time) an issue.

Im in Pattaya.

[gzu88bv]

Provided my immi office is happy with reporting back international travels only and I spend the very first day in a hotel after return does that relieve my house master to report me back at my local immi office in another province?

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

A question. my last 90 day was done in bangkok. I'm currently staying in a Pattaya condotel one month.

I assume the hotel reported but do I need to fill out any forms when I report to Pattaya immigration?

If you have an extension of stay issued in Bangkok you probably won't be able to report in Pattaya unless you complete a change of address first.

Edited November 21, 2017 by elviajero

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, toots said:

Hi everybody i have just found out my landlady has never submitted a tm30 for me. I have lived here 2 years have a retirement extension and do my 90 days with this address. Is this a problem for my landlady or me. Cheers

There's no straightforward answer. If you've lived in the same place for two years, and received extensions of stay without any problems, then the lack of TM.30 doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

In most cases, at most offices, they want the owner (landlady) to make the report, or at least have their ID attached to the report. Some offices consider a foreign tenant to be a "possessor" of the property, in which case the foreigner, and their landlord, can be considered equally responsible to ensure a report is done. If you are considered the possessor, and a report isn't done, you (or the landlady) could be fined up to 2,000 baht (typically 800 baht) for not reporting. Some offices insist on a TM.30 report being made as part of the extension of stay process and won't issue one without it. In those instances they may fine someone for not reporting.

 

If you want a definitive answer you need to ask your local office.

[InMyShadow]

If you have an extension of stay issued in Bangkok you probably won't be able to report in Pattaya unless you complete a change of address first.

yes thanks and that would be a tm 30 or another form?

[BuddyDean]

7 hours ago, toots said:

Hi everybody i have just found out my landlady has never submitted a tm30 for me. I have lived here 2 years have a retirement extension and do my 90 days with this address. Is this a problem for my landlady or me. Cheers

Possibly both, but the landlady isn't going to need an extension.  Better read your lease, too, as it could open up the unpaid tax can of worms.  I would get her I'd with signature, take the lease, visit the IO, and expect a fine of 1600, but varies widely.  Or simply move, but might even need to change provinces.  Take the lump, many of us got screwed, after jumping through every hoop thrown at us for years.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

If you have an extension of stay issued in Bangkok you probably won't be able to report in Pattaya unless you complete a change of address first.

yes thanks and that would be a tm 30 or another form?

TM.28 is for change of address. They might also want a TM.30 from the owner of the property.

[InMyShadow]

TM.28 is for change of address. They might also want a TM.30 from the owner of the property.

thanks mate

[The manic]

On 10/11/2017 at 4:20 PM, ubonjoe said:

The one I posted a link to was sourced from the immigration website years ago.

Edit: It and other can be found in this topic.

 

I asked a similar question about returning to Thailand from a foreign trip but to my permanent address which i supplied on my arrival card. I did not report to my local IO and will not untill the 90 day approaches. I tour around thailand constantly as do hundreds of thousands of people. If we all returned to our local IO every time we travelled it would be ludicrous and impractical. If I changed my permanent address i would inform the IO within 24 hours.. or pay and agent or juristic person to do it for me. 

[JackThompson]

28 minutes ago, The manic said:

I asked a similar question about returning to Thailand from a foreign trip but to my permanent address which i supplied on my arrival card. I did not report to my local IO and will not untill the 90 day approaches. I tour around thailand constantly as do hundreds of thousands of people. If we all returned to our local IO every time we travelled it would be ludicrous and impractical. If I changed my permanent address i would inform the IO within 24 hours.. or pay and agent or juristic person to do it for me. 

You'd think putting an address on a TM-6 would be counted as reporting your address.  Unfortunately, all the TM-6 form does is prove you "should have" filed a TM-30 (at some immigration offices under changing-conditions).   The "out of province for 24 hours" rule seems to be more flexibly enforced than the out-of-country rule - though some are now saying they were told short trips out of the country don't require reporting. 

 

It would be nice if a static rule-set was published, but that would require admitting they are not enforcing the "laws on the books" - and have mixed the TM-30 and TM-28 rules into some sort of lumpy rule-stew.  The actual laws are, as you say, impractical.

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post meant to deflect the topic has been removed.

[Pilotman]

I obtained advice from Immigration here in Chon Buri.  It was that any time outside the country less than 3 days, don't  need to report back.  In country a weekend away is okay, any more than 3 days report.  of course, this was only from one mitigation officer, but I follow it.