What is the law on TM - 30, Re overnight travel within Thailand ?

[tryasimight]

Ignore the law and pay the fine if you ever get busted.

[bazza73]

2 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Ignore the law and pay the fine if you ever get busted.

There's obviously a lot of debate about what the law actually is. IMHO the probability of getting busted is very low.

[zaZa9]

15 hours ago, BritTim said:

About 100 years out of date in my opinion. Worse than that, it is difficult to know what interpretation of the law and its enforcement will be used by the immigration office you next need to have contact with.  Indeed, there have been cases where you can only know your responsibilities if you know which immigration official you will next deal with, as interpretations can vary even inside the same office. Thais are somewhat used to dealing with things like this, but most Westerners find such ambiguities absolutely intolerable.

Totally agree !

On a more general note , I am currently questioning what I assumed were the true  "Rules" about Thai culture that I have been hearing for  over 10 years now..

 

In particular , the "Rules" about Individualism ... and also about Face.

We've been told forever that the Thai , in fact nearly all Asians , quite willingly sacrifice their individualism for the benefit of the group , and that conformity is one of their most practised values.

But if we just take even a cursory  a look at this one aspect of Thai society , Immigration ,  a government Department where we supposedly highly individualist farangs expect a great deal of uniformity and conformity , we constantly see individual officers  dictating the law as they see fit . We see individual IO's applying the Law differently ... obviously under the direction of individual 'bosse' ...even back in our own country we see individual Thai   Consuls dealing in Visa regulations with very different outcomes ... I remember as a newb being surprised to learn it was better I apply in Brisbane than Sydney , or Hull over London !

How could we not possibly conclude it is US and not the Thai  that has the herd mentality ??

 

( Re -'face'. If you were a high official  and you ordered all beach chairs off all beaches and you saw nobody comply would you consider yourself to have lost some face? What about if you ordered your staff to keep an eye on Yingluck ? Seems to me the term applied to such matters should be 'bare-faced' or ' thick-skinned'... In short these are 2 labels given to the Thai I simply no longer hold with.)

[tryasimight]

Just now, bazza73 said:

There's obviously a lot of debate about what the law actually is. IMHO the probability of getting busted is very low.

Agree...but why do so many people get so stressed about this? 

[zaZa9]

1 hour ago, phuketrichard said:

the person reporting paying 1,000 baht on FB did it at the PATONG immigration office where they charge and are sticklers for everything,

she did NOT get a receipt.

 

Phuket town immigration does not enforce this.

what other immigration offices require reporting before 24 hours after staying in a hotel??

 

Have traveled multiple times out  of the country an all over Thailand since my notification was issued and attached to my  passport in 2015.  Have had 2 1 year extensions and a few 90 day reports, never did report after returning home after  being away.

Was told at phuket immigration as long as you dont change homes no need to report and so far all has been good.

I concur.

Phuket residents should avoid Patong like the plague at the moment and use Phuket Immigration in PT.

[bazza73]

Just now, tryasimight said:

Agree...but why do so many people get so stressed about this? 

Possibly because some are here on a shoestring budget, and even a 1600 - 2000 baht fine is significant to them. Or they are just fussbudgets.

[tryasimight]

4 minutes ago, zaZa9 said:

Totally agree !

On a more general note , I am currently questioning what I assumed were the true  "Rules" about Thai culture that I have been hearing for  over 10 years now..

 

In particular , the "Rules" about Individualism ... and also about Face.

We've been told forever that the Thai , in fact nearly all Asians , quite willingly sacrifice their individualism for the benefit of the group , and that conformity is one of their most practised values.

But if we just take even a cursory  a look at this one aspect of Thai society , Immigration ,  a government Department where we supposedly highly individualist farangs expect a great deal of uniformity and conformity , we constantly see individual officers  dictating the law as they see fit . We see individual IO's applying the Law differently ... obviously under the direction of individual 'bosse' ...even back in our own country we see individual Thai   Consuls dealing in Visa regulations with very different outcomes ... I remember as a newb being surprised to learn it was better I apply in Brisbane than Sydney , or Hull over London !

How could we not possibly conclude it is US and not the Thai  that has the herd mentality ??

 

( Re -'face'. If you were a high official  and you ordered all beach chairs off all beaches and you saw nobody comply would you consider yourself to have lost some face? What about if you ordered your staff to keep an eye on Yingluck ? Seems to me the term applied to such matters should be 'bare-faced' or ' thick-skinned'... In short these are 2 labels given to the Thai I simply no longer hold with.)

Thanks for the rant.

Substitute embarass for face and it applies to all races.....nobody likes to be embarrassed or lose face.

[DavisH]

I wonder if any other country tries to track the movements of foreigners as religiously as Thailand? I'm sure every day, foreigners are going to other provinces for short holidays and their new place of residence are reporting their address to the police / immigration. 

[manchega]

19 hours ago, PhuketSarah said:

Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. 

 

Should read as relevant.. 

no, correct the first time.  Argue with judge over the competence of official.  Based on my experiences here, you could very easily get into that situation of arguing about the incompetance.  It does get me in trouble every time though.

[ianf]

I have recently been told by a competent official that although there is a requirement to fill out a TM30 it is not necessarily required in all cases. Our case is that we have a friend coming to stay for a couple of weeks. I inquired about a TM30 and was told that unless the person is here permanently don't bother. And the reason appears to be that if we all did as bid on every single occasion then the system would be so overwhelmed that it would completely crack.

[Goethe]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:18 PM, PhuketSarah said:

Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. 

 

Should read as relevant.. 

The cognate word "competent" in other languages (e.g. German, French -- and presumably Thai) means "responsible" (as in "having the authority"). 

[Skeptic7]

How's that old saying go? Clear as mud now...

 

Almost nothing is clear in this country...and certainly not with Immigration laws, rules, procedures. This is the place where whenever someone inquires as to what should be a consistent answer Kingdom-wide, the first response is...'to which Imm Office are you going?' 

[sandyf]

On 11/10/2017 at 3:10 PM, elviajero said:

 

They can insist that someone at the property a foreigner lives at makes a report every time they return from staying at another address in the country. Most offices don't enforce the law in full.

 

About three weeks ago when I did my extension, my wife specifically asked the IO if a new TM30 was required and the answer was " not if I return to the same address".

The fact that my extension was done on a brand new Non O visa it was fairly obvious that I had recently been to the UK.

The TM30  slip in my passport is dated July 2014 and this was the 3rd extension I had done since then.

 

It is about interpretation rather than enforcement, as is often the case.

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

It is about interpretation rather than enforcement, as is often the case.

IMO the law (section 38) on TM.30 reporting is crystal clear and not being misinterpreted. Every time you stay somewhere someone is responsible for reporting that stay. The uncertainty/frustration comes from varying enforcement of that law (section 38) between offices, and because immigration also use the TM.30 form as a form of proof of address when applying for an extension of stay.

 

[manchega]

for a change I did 90 day report instead of my preffered leave country at least every 90 days.  I had to get the homeowner to sign stuff, giving their id, photo, income all sorts of nonsense.

why oh why the immigration even care I don't know.  Went back again with the same info. and this time they were not interested in it.

???

[connda]

The TM 30 is not the responsiblity of the foreigner!  It is the responsiblity of the person, Thai or foreigner, whose home, hotel, or establishment you are residing in.

If immigration tried to shake me down for the fine, I'm retired, so I have nothing better to do with my time then to prove a point up to and including filing formal complaints to the offices of Thailand 4.0.  Now, when we were shaken down for the fine the first time, of course I paid the fine for my wife for living in her house.  That's only happening once.  

Regarding the TM28.  Sure.  Go to another province for 24 hours and try to file a TM28 -  99.99999% of the precincts wouldn't know what to do with your TM28 and they have no idea what you are talking about.  Just realize, Thai bureaucracy is flooded to overflowing with their own paperwork to the point where the dam is bursting.  They have no interest in you personally nor adding to their own paperwork.

Edited November 12, 2017 by connda

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, connda said:

The TM 30 is not the responsiblity of the foreigner!  It is the responsiblity of the person, Thai or foreigner, whose home, hotel, or establishment you are residing in.

 

Correct. When I, a foreigner, rent a house or an apartment, this house or apartment is my home. When you, a foreigner, comes to stay at my home it is the responsibility of me, a foreigner, not you, a foreigner, to notify immigration of your arrival at my home with the form TM.30. When I, a foreigner, arrive at my home it is the responsibility of me, a foreigner, to notify the arrival of myself, a foreigner, at my home.

 

Therefore, as you can see, there is a situation where a foreigner is responsible to submit the TM.30 for his own arrival at his own home. As many readers of this forum and this topic appear to be tenants I thought it was important to clarify this.

[Dumbastheycome]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:00 AM, tryasimight said:

Ignore the law and pay the fine if you ever get busted.

Busted  for  what? The  TM30  is  an issue  for  Thai  nationals in the  aquaintance  of  non  Thai stayers.

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The  TM30  is  an issue  for  Thai  nationals in the  aquaintance  of  non  Thai stayers.

 

The TM.30 can be an issue also for a foreigner if he is the house-master as defined in the Immigration Act or the possessor or the owner of a residence.

[thinkingman]

Pointless!

 

If you are on a lease or own a condo, make a TM  30  report each day you think about being somewhere else. Just drop by Jomtien immigration on the way to golf, or Soi 6, or wherever! Jomtien made it easy--they even have a separate line.

 

 A filing of a TM30 to immigration is like chicken soup: It can't hurt.  Maybe if they got 10,000 TM30s per day they could get consistent.  Maybe every tourist should file a TM30 every time they move, just in case the hotel doesn't file one. It seems they fine folks when they apply for an extension. Thus, file TM30s all the time or never apply for an extension. Always insist on a receipt or note that filing is unnecessary.

 

Mass civil compliance with a an inconsistently enforced law will result in change. Bury them with paper.

Edited November 13, 2017 by thinkingman
added

[LannaDave]

I asked a senior IO at Chiang Mai immigration a couple weeks ago when I filed my TM30 for a new residence if I needed to update or refile after traveling in Thailand and he assured me I do not that it is only necessary  to update my current TM30 on file within 24hrs after returning from international travel. He did go on to state there is a lot of confusion on the issue even within his own department so that does not mean there will not be future issues. Hope this helps!

What he was less clear on was when the 24hr countdown begins. If it begins at the time you enter through immigration that makes for an almost impossible window for me if I make entry in Bangkok and have poor connections for transit to Chiang Mai as I live outside the city.  If it's from the time you arrive at your residence (which would seem fair but...) how does one demonstrate that to avoid the 1600B nick for being late? I would much rather head straight  home then have to grab a hotel within 24hrs just for the paper trail. Any ideas from other  upcountry expats greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[BritTim]

8 minutes ago, LannaDave said:

What he was less clear on was when the 24hr countdown begins. If it begins at the time you enter through immigration that makes for an almost impossible window for me if I make entry in Bangkok and have poor connections for transit to Chiang Mai as I live outside the city.  If it's from the time you arrive at your residence (which would seem fair but...) how does one demonstrate that to avoid the 1600B nick for being late? I would much rather head straight  home then have to grab a hotel within 24hrs just for the paper trail. Any ideas from other  upcountry expats greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

It should, according to the letter of the law, be 24 hours from when you arrive in Chiang Mai province. It is obviously pretty difficult to prove when that was (unless, perhaps, you take a domestic flight to Chiang Mai). However, I think even the most bloody minded official is going to take your word for it if you file within 48 hours of arrival in Bangkok.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

IMO the law (section 38) on TM.30 reporting is crystal clear and not being misinterpreted. Every time you stay somewhere someone is responsible for reporting that stay. The uncertainty/frustration comes from varying enforcement of that law (section 38) between offices, and because immigration also use the TM.30 form as a form of proof of address when applying for an extension of stay.

 

You may think it is crystal clear but it is fairly obvious that it is not to many others.

"Every time you stay somewhere someone is responsible for reporting that stay."

For those that stay somewhere on a long term basis does that mean someone must report every time you leave the building and then return or does it mean someone must report the first time you arrive.

 

It is an unfortunate fact of this forum that there is a tendency to focus on literal text rather than context. There are under 30,000 words in the Thai language and nearly 200,000 in the the English language. Any written translation is always going to be open to interpretation and certainly never "crystal clear".

[sandyf]

22 minutes ago, LannaDave said:

I asked a senior IO at Chiang Mai immigration a couple weeks ago when I filed my TM30 for a new residence if I needed to update or refile after traveling in Thailand and he assured me I do not that it is only necessary  to update my current TM30 on file within 24hrs after returning from international travel. He did go on to state there is a lot of confusion on the issue even within his own department so that does not mean there will not be future issues. Hope this helps!

What he was less clear on was when the 24hr countdown begins. If it begins at the time you enter through immigration that makes for an almost impossible window for me if I make entry in Bangkok and have poor connections for transit to Chiang Mai as I live outside the city.  If it's from the time you arrive at your residence (which would seem fair but...) how does one demonstrate that to avoid the 1600B nick for being late? I would much rather head straight  home then have to grab a hotel within 24hrs just for the paper trail. Any ideas from other  upcountry expats greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

The TM30 is to report an alien in residence so the report does not become applicable until you are in residence. If you were to take the overnight train to CM you would not be in residence.

[JAS21]

I think that hotels have slackened' their policy on reporting.

 

Having traved quite a lot recently ...always with my wife ... I get her to book in and show her ID ... Have never had to show my passport number.

 

Quite often I say my wife will check in as if I do I have to go to immigration and say I'm back home, isn't that stupid!  Worked so far in 3,4and 5* places

[BritTim]

22 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

I think that hotels have slackened' their policy on reporting.

 

Having traved quite a lot recently ...always with my wife ... I get her to book in and show her ID ... Have never had to show my passport number.

 

Quite often I say my wife will check in as if I do I have to go to immigration and say I'm back home, isn't that stupid!  Worked so far in 3,4and 5* places

Glad it is working for you, and it is an approach unlikely to get you into trouble. However, the hotel is supposed to note all guests staying overnight, not just those doing the initial check in. Do not be surprised if a hotel insists on this in the future.

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, LannaDave said:

What he was less clear on was when the 24hr countdown begins.

 

If even an immigration official, reading  the original Thai text, does not understand it clearly, we have a real problem.

[Maestro]

8 hours ago, BritTim said:

Glad it is working for you, and it is an approach unlikely to get you into trouble. However, the hotel is supposed to note all guests staying overnight, not just those doing the initial check in. Do not be surprised if a hotel insists on this in the future.

 

Indeed. Every once in a while, when a higher-up publicly chides immigration for their inability to provide a current address for an elusive foreign criminal, immigration proclaims that it will enforce the notification requirement by the managers of hotels and guesthouses and the house-masters, owners or possessors of residences, one case or two of somebody being fined is made public, then everything returns back to where it was before. But on the whole, posts by Thaivisa members indicate a gradually stricter enforcement by a rising number of immigration offices.

[Dumbastheycome]

14 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The TM.30 can be an issue also for a foreigner if he is the house-master as defined in the Immigration Act or the possessor or the owner of a residence.

TRue.  But most   such are  or  should  be  aware  of  it  which  reduces  the  "issue"  of  the  issue. Unlike  trying  to  explain  to  Thai   nationals of  the  requirement if  it  seems  prudent to  accomodate  it !

[Dumbastheycome]

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

It should, according to the letter of the law, be 24 hours from when you arrive in Chiang Mai province. It is obviously pretty difficult to prove when that was (unless, perhaps, you take a domestic flight to Chiang Mai). However, I think even the most bloody minded official is going to take your word for it if you file within 48 hours of arrival in Bangkok.

Or  if   you  were  to  do a  Forrest   Gump  act  and  walk/run   from BKK  to  Chiang  Mai this  gem  of a  regulation becomes  pointless because  in  effect  you  are   not  in  any fixed  location for  more  than  24  hours.

It  has  been  my  experience  that  Immigration is  satisfied  with  being  informed  of " usual" fixed  location within a  timely period..