Engagement and sin sod

[Eddie664]

Hallo.

 

Trying to post this here as I didn't find a better place.

I have found a girl here in Thaland and want to get engaged to her.

For reasons of mother in law we have decided to do this cos of different things (not important).

A couple of days later my girlfriend came to me and asked for sin sod. I have heard that this is for marriage only and not for engagement.

I said I am not willing to pay any sin sod when we get engaged, but will pay sin sod when we get married. I have the money and I'm willing to do it if/when we get married.

It was ok for my girlfriend that i didn't pay anything when we get engaged. I only have to buy 2 rings, 1 for her and 1 for me.

The question then was if I could show 100k for her mother (father is dead) in the engagement ceremony. Then I would get the money back when the ceremony was over.

I should not pay anything now.

My girlfriend is a 37 years old middleclass girl from Isaan working as a nurse without mastersdegree. She is working on her master now.

She has never been married and don't have any kids. If/when we get married she wants me to move in with her and her mum and her niese. Her mum is not working, but taking care of the house at home.

 

I don't know how much she will ask in sin sod, but said that 100k is part of it.

She wants me to show the money for all present during the ceremony.

 

Should I show them the money or not?

[swissie]

If the lady was not married before and has no kids, theoretically "sin sod" would have to come into play. (not so, if the Lady was married before with kids).

"Sin sod" is only due upon marriage. Not before.

- As you descibe it, the required "sin sod" appears to be symbolic (the funds to be returned to you after the ceremony=marriage). It would be a traditional ritual, very much practised in modern day Thailand (upholding tradition).

How to go about it? Tell the Lady that you know about Thai-Customs and are absolutely willing to go along with it and don't forget to mention that the "sin-sod" returned to you, will eventually (after marriage) find it's way back to her/you/family one way or the other.

"Mum" probably just wants to see if you have 100K beforehand. Show her your suit case full of bank notes or show her your latests bank-statement.
Cheers.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Don't be a cheap Charlie. She seems to be a nice girl.

 

 

[Kadilo]

What's an engagement ceremony? Personally I wouldn't show anything until the wedding and even then only if it's returned.


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[Eddie664]

9 hours ago, swissie said:

If the lady was not married before and has no kids, theoretically "sin sod" would have to come into play. (not so, if the Lady was married before with kids).

"Sin sod" is only due upon marriage. Not before.

- As you descibe it, the required "sin sod" appears to be symbolic (the funds to be returned to you after the ceremony=marriage). It would be a traditional ritual, very much practised in modern day Thailand (upholding tradition).

How to go about it? Tell the Lady that you know about Thai-Customs and are absolutely willing to go along with it and don't forget to mention that the "sin-sod" returned to you, will eventually (after marriage) find it's way back to her/you/family one way or the other.

"Mum" probably just wants to see if you have 100K beforehand. Show her your suit case full of bank notes or show her your latests bank-statement.
Cheers.

Thx for reply :) 

This is what I needed to know :)

Only thing I learned here was that it is given back to you in one way or the other.

She is sort of suspicious of me since I am farang, but beeing with her, my gf and my gf's niese she more and more accepts me for who I am and see that I will be able to take care of her daughter in the future.

My gf has also said that showing 100k now is just for showing her mother and the people living around them. They are living in a larger city in Isaan and not a small village. Her mother does not work though as far as I know.

[Eddie664]

9 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Don't be a cheap Charlie. She seems to be a nice girl.

 

 

Not going to be a cheap Charlie, but want to know how this works because it might take a while before we get married.

Someone said to me that don't pay anything now as there are other things from my gf's mum that seems like she is out for money and not me.

 

She is a really nice girl :)

[wildewillie89]

More and more families today are happy to bypass sin sord all together (or at the very least, return it). This sometimes results from the newer generation daughter reading about sin sord as a cause of conflict or a deal breaker for other Thai/Western couples, and explaining this to her family. Thai women have their various forums to talk about farang, just like we do on ThaiVisa. 

It is easy to get around sin sord in terms of the actual wedding and pleasing those who care about it. Just have the morning ceremony in a church (whether religious or not) and spread a rumour about a sin sord amount that was 'supposedly' paid. We did it, and other Thai friends have done the same to avoid sin sord as they too see it as ridiculous in modern society.

It is also a good start to learning how to make compromises on the two cultures/thinking. For example, our first child had a baby ceremony. I saw how ridiculous it was having dirty money put all over her and 100s of people breathing all over her at a young age and now the family have agreed with me and said our second child will not have one. If you just give, give, give and never stand up for your own beliefs then you will end up another bitter member on ThaiVisa lol. 

Has nothing to do with being cheap. Plus, gives a pretty clear message that the farang will never be an ATM machine for the family members who may not be so naturally loving. She seems like a good sort with a good job/education so have a very open/calm discussion about it.  Of course, others are 'completely happy' to be ATM machines and that is completely okay also.

[F4UCorsair]

She didn't ask for 'introduction sin sod'??

 

You've been lucky.

 

This is 2017, the 21st century, and Thais are still trying on this antiquated 'custom'.

 

Tell her your culture requires that the woman pays sin sod and watch her run.

 

 

[akirasan]

So my 'sid sod' engagement was 50,000 I think.  I didn't have to pay when we got engaged, just added it to the wedding cash.  

I got half of the total amount back because I wasn't bothered about having an argument, it was really my wifes dream day and her family and all their cousins are really nice and never asked me for anything, just to fix the occasional door or light around their house.  No problem.

If you're serious about this girl and you trust your instincts then yes you should go along with it and show them the money they have requested.  Be clear about what will happen to it after the ceremony.

On a side note, as far as your living situation is concerned, start making plans about the future now.  Whether you want to build a house or rent some place nearby.  We tried the whole 'living with the MIL' thing as I'd only just arrived and it didn't work for us.  Got our own place and life is great.  

 

[Deli]

Run man, run as long and as far as you can.

Moving in with a mother in law... think twice or even more often.

And paying a sin sod in 2017 ?

 

[steven100]

If your happy with being engaged and future wife then whats 100k   ?   peanuts.  $4k  AUD.

If you renig and don't provide the 100k then if I was the gf I wouldn't want you as a husband ....

[Ahab]

Sin sod is a Thai custom and would be expected in many parts of Rural Thailand.

 

Being able to take care of the wife's parents is very important to many Thai women. Showing that you have the capacity to do this might be helpful (as others have stated). I have been married 25 years and my wife was in the USA for most of that time (we are living in Thailand now), and we would send 100-200 USD per month back to the parents each month to make sure they were OK. That works out to 30K-60K USD over that time (or 1-2 million Thai baht).

 

In the end it is up to you, but the wedding party, and a gold necklace is normally paid for by the groom. Some sin sot for display that is partially or fully given back is not out of the ordinary for a first marriage, even among Thais in the part of Thailand where we live (Buriram). If it is all about money, I would think hard about the path you are embarking on.

[Ahab]

30 minutes ago, F4UCorsair said:

She didn't ask for 'introduction sin sod'??

 

You've been lucky.

 

This is 2017, the 21st century, and Thais are still trying on this antiquated 'custom'.

 

Tell her your culture requires that the woman pays sin sod and watch her run.

 

 

She will run (and rightfully so) because if someone did as you suggest they are being an ass. Concur that many requests for sin sod are a scam and just for the money. Especially if she has been previously married one or more times, has one or several children from previous marriages, or likes to get drunk or gamble.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it, but don't insult the girl you are thinking is a candidate for marriage by asking her to pay you sin sod.

[Pilotman]

On 20/11/2017 at 3:35 AM, Kadilo said:

What's an engagement ceremony? Personally I wouldn't show anything until the wedding and even then only if it's returned.


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Several points here.  Yes, there are engagement ceremonies in LOS, especially important in the North east, where bride and groom may well live together before the wedding. It is in effect a religeous blessing and a party, low key ish. I had one. The sin sot is negotiated with the parents , the girl takes no official part in deciding the amount.  The payment can be made at any time, but sybolically, it is made on the wedding day.  In practical  terms, it may well be paid before hand if that is agreed by all parties.  The couple will normally get some of it back, plus other cash at the wedding, but the wedding party normally takes care of that cash sum and more.   100K sounds about right to me. One final bit of advice, if the family are traditional and so is the lady, pay up and suck it up .

[Pilotman]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

She will run (and rightfully so) because if someone did as you suggest they are being an ass. Concur that many requests for sin sod are a scam and just for the money. Especially if she has been previously married one or more times, has one or several children from previous marriages, or likes to get drunk or gamble.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it, but don't insult the girl you are thinking is a candidate for marriage by asking her to pay you sin sod.

quite right .  If you love her, pay up and be done with it.

[koolkarl]

From what you wrote, your sweetheart seems to have money on her mind, a lot.

Should you marry her, she wants her mother and niece in the same house and you will be

footing the bills for schools, medical, orthodontist, etc.  An old saying, "no house is big enough

for two families."  

And as far as I am concerned, dowry should be paid from bride's parents to the groom as done years ago.

She will probably ask for a new Fortuner and house and lot too before she jumps into bed with you. 

Think about it..... 

[steven100]

It's quite simple really  .....  if your happy with this girl and she seems a good responsible type of person then just go ahead and provide the 100k.

Remember, nothing is free and your blessed to have such a nice gf so do what your heart says.

If you don't then it's saying to her and her family that you are unlikely to provide for her in the future.

[Pilotman]

14 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

From what you wrote, your sweetheart seems to have money on her mind, a lot.

Should you marry her, she wants her mother and niece in the same house and you will be

footing the bills for schools, medical, orthodontist, etc.  An old saying, "no house is big enough

for two families."  

And as far as I am concerned, dowry should be paid from bride's parents to the groom as done years ago.

She will probably ask for a new Fortuner and house and lot too before she jumps into bed with you. 

Think about it..... 

then what you know about Thai culture would fit on a postage stramp. The man shouldn't lose the girl just becuse of ignorant western attitudes that don't pertain here.

[steven100]

23 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

From what you wrote, your sweetheart seems to have money on her mind, a lot.

Should you marry her, she wants her mother and niece in the same house and you will be

footing the bills for schools, medical, orthodontist, etc.  An old saying, "no house is big enough

for two families."  

And as far as I am concerned, dowry should be paid from bride's parents to the groom as done years ago.

She will probably ask for a new Fortuner and house and lot too before she jumps into bed with you. 

Think about it..... 

and they all should come running after you because you are so handsome ...

[1FinickyOne]

On November 20, 2560 BE at 3:26 AM, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Don't be a cheap Charlie. She seems to be a nice girl.

 

 

ha ha!! You sleeping on a different side of the bed lately? 

[2unique]

She will need you to have it and the rings for the Facebook photos. You won't have to hand it over until the wedding.

[1FinickyOne]

On November 20, 2560 BE at 12:29 PM, Eddie664 said:

Not going to be a cheap Charlie, but want to know how this works because it might take a while before we get married.

Someone said to me that don't pay anything now as there are other things from my gf's mum that seems like she is out for money and not me.

 

She is a really nice girl :)

Really nice girls like money too - everyone does. I have been here a long time and never been or even heard of an engagement party... but that can happen

 

Sin Sod comes as part of a wedding ceremony. Whether or not it comes back should be made perfectly clear - no maybes. My wife's family was poor - she, never married, I had no problem giving them a gift of Sin Sod for raising a wonderful daughter, nice enough that I wanted to marry her. I have never felt badly about having given that gift. 

 

The original custom called for each party to appoint someone else to do the negotiating to avoid any conflicts. Your GF will likely do that - just tell her you want everything to be clear. If it is a "show" at your engagement party, then ok - but any real sin sod should come at the wedding. 

[smotherb]

On 11/20/2017 at 12:27 PM, Eddie664 said:

Thx for reply :) 

This is what I needed to know :)

Only thing I learned here was that it is given back to you in one way or the other.

She is sort of suspicious of me since I am farang, but beeing with her, my gf and my gf's niese she more and more accepts me for who I am and see that I will be able to take care of her daughter in the future.

My gf has also said that showing 100k now is just for showing her mother and the people living around them. They are living in a larger city in Isaan and not a small village. Her mother does not work though as far as I know.

Well, hold on a second. What swissie says may be true in some circumstances; mostly in old-fashioned Thai culture. Some will say, you need to observe Thai culture because you are marrying a Thai; well I see the reciprocal of that, she is marrying a Westerner, so what about observance of his culture? Certainly the fact that she is 37 puts her beyond the sell-by date for many Thai men. So her sin sot gathering days may be gone. Thai culture is moving-on and becoming more modern in many ways. A few years ago, when my son was getting married, I had the sin sot discussion with several Thai friends--two business owners, a doctor, and a retired Army colonel. They all agreed there were ever-increasing exceptions to sin sot today, but they were 50-50 on whether they would demand sin sot for their daughters. My daughter-in-law is a genuinely lovely girl, early-twenties at the time and a degreed industrial engineer. Her parents wanted sin sot. My son was here just after graduating university in the US and working as a teacher, he had no money and I wasn't about to pay it--my personal opinion is sin sot is no more or less than a bar fine. Her father and I talked. The result was we paid no sin sot, but her parents said we did and they immediately gave it back to the newly weds. Problem solved for both families.

[worgeordie]

You should marry a nice Indian girl,then you will be the one getting the money !

regards Worgeordie

[1FinickyOne]

2 minutes ago, smotherb said:

Well, hold on a second. What swissie says may be true in some circumstances; mostly in old-fashioned Thai culture. Some will say, you need to observe Thai culture because you are marrying a Thai; well I see the reciprocal of that, she is marrying a Westerner, so what about observance of his culture? Certainly the fact that she is 37 puts her beyond the sell-by date for many Thai men. So her sin sot gathering days may be gone. Thai culture is moving-on and becoming more modern in many ways. A few years ago, when my son was getting married, I had the sin sot discussion with several Thai friends--two business owners, a doctor, and a retired Army colonel. They all agreed there were ever-increasing exceptions to sin sot today, but they were 50-50 on whether they would demand sin sot for their daughters. My daughter-in-law is a genuinely lovely girl, early-twenties at the time and a degreed industrial engineer. Her parents wanted sin sot. My son was here just after graduating university in the US and working as a teacher, he had no money and I wasn't about to pay it--my personal opinion is sin sot is no more or less than a bar fine. Her father and I talked. The result was we paid no sin sot, but her parents said we did and they immediately gave it back to the newly weds. Problem solved for both families.

I live in the countryside and there is plenty of old fashioned culture here... If your son were getting married in the US then it would be more suiting that they follow customs there. If here, then Sin Sod should be a mutually agreed upon settlement. Just a show for ceremony is fine if all agree. 

 

Have to respectfully object to some of your remarks though... A bar fine is a fee paid for a nightly rental... I guess these days osme pay a "bar fine" for internet dating too. Sin Sod is a gift to the parents of your bride to be. I had no objection to giving a gift to my wife's parents who are poor farmers but very decent people. I don't mind sharing my good fortune. 

 

And what is this past her sell by date? Does she lose that new car smell? 

[Ricardo]

Time to get used to helping support the family, this will continue after engagement/marriage too, your fiancee will be expeccted to demonstrate that she's bringing a generous & understanding husband into the family, and Yes  ...  this is different from back home.

[AJBangkok]

I would definitely show the money. If you dont get it back then walk away. It’s a cheap lesson compared to getting married.

 

BTW you should make sure you are getting engaged and not performing a marriage ceremony......

[rwill]

Thai couples will still pay it even now.  Often most of the money is returned to the couple. My thai relatives that have married other thais all had sin sod of some amount.

[smotherb]

Just now, kenk24 said:

I live in the countryside and there is plenty of old fashioned culture here... If your son were getting married in the US then it would be more suiting that they follow customs there. If here, then Sin Sod should be a mutually agreed upon settlement. Just a show for ceremony is fine if all agree. 

 

Have to respectfully object to some of your remarks though... A bar fine is a fee paid for a nightly rental... I guess these days osme pay a "bar fine" for internet dating too. Sin Sod is a gift to the parents of your bride to be. I had no objection to giving a gift to my wife's parents who are poor farmers but very decent people. I don't mind sharing my good fortune. 

 

And what is this past her sell by date? Does she lose that new car smell? 

You seem to have overlooked the fact that we did have a "mutually agreed upon settlement."

You also seem to be confused on the issue of where the marriage takes place somehow cancelling-out the other’s culture. Peoples from different cultures need to understand the other and rid themselves of continued adherence to old-fashioned ideas which oppose the other’s culture. Furthermore, neither my son nor his wife intended on staying in Thailand.

As far as you taking exception to my opinion that sin sot is no more than a bar fine, that is your problem, not mine.  You say sin sot is a gift for the parents; that seems a very euphemistic way to put it, I see it as paying the parents for the right to have sex with their daughter. That, to me, is very similar to paying mama- and/or papa-san for the privilege to have sex with one of their girls.  You also state that a bar fine is nightly rental, at the rate of sin sot, it would be more long-term than nightly.

If you had no objection to paying for your bride; that is your choice. I see it as a bar fine.

As far as the new car smell; indeed, that is part of the issue. You see, the older the bride the less likely she is still virgin and the fact that she is still unmarried at this late date may indicate some shortcoming in her being. Please note, I said “less likely” and “may indicate.”

[Destiny1990]

So u moving in what rent  is ur mother inlaw going to charge u?