Putin Urged to Deploy Nuclear Weapons to Expedite War and Sever NATO Supply Routes

[cliveshep]

So America has finally got it's head out of it's a** and accepted what has been fact for nearly 70 years - Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

 

The UK must have piles by now because it still won't accept it. It's bloomin' stupid. Sovereign nations choose their capital cities, it is solely their choice and no business of anyone else. If the silly Arabs had accepted this long ago instead of pontificating about ever more jihads they wouldn't keep getting slapped down so violently, and their people would not be suffering so. Yes I agree that 70 years ago Israel land-grabbed, but the Allies are not whiter than white for they redrew country borders to suit themselves and not the people who got displaced. They gave the Jews nowhere to go so who can blame them for saying "enough is enough, before the UK and Russia murder any more of us let's go back to our ancestral home and FIGHT to take and keep it."  It was after all their promised land millennia ago.

 

I think the Jews have done well, with enemies sworn to destroy them on every side they have survived triumphantly. Now they even sell arms to America and other countries. Bully for them!

[dexterm]

28 minutes ago, cliveshep said:

So America has finally got it's head out of it's a** and accepted what has been fact for nearly 70 years - Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

 

The UK must have piles by now because it still won't accept it. It's bloomin' stupid. Sovereign nations choose their capital cities, it is solely their choice and no business of anyone else. If the silly Arabs had accepted this long ago instead of pontificating about ever more jihads they wouldn't keep getting slapped down so violently, and their people would not be suffering so. Yes I agree that 70 years ago Israel land-grabbed, but the Allies are not whiter than white for they redrew country borders to suit themselves and not the people who got displaced. They gave the Jews nowhere to go so who can blame them for saying "enough is enough, before the UK and Russia murder any more of us let's go back to our ancestral home and FIGHT to take and keep it."  It was after all their promised land millennia ago.

 

I think the Jews have done well, with enemies sworn to destroy them on every side they have survived triumphantly. Now they even sell arms to America and other countries. Bully for them!

I disagree with some of your history, but..

 

The problem for Israel is that although it is a sovereign nation, a minority of Jews is currently occupying a majority of indigenous Muslims and Christians, most of whom do not have equal rights. That formula is unsustainable. Something has to give.

 

You either make two states with each having separate capitals in West and East Jerusalem, where they each have their sacred sites.

 

Or with the wisdom of Solomon, if the baby can't be divided, you share it in a one state solution granting everyone equal rights.

[Krataiboy]

Here we go, here we go, here we go - again.

[Bluespunk]

19 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Haniyeh, elected the group's overall leader in May, urged Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs to hold rallies against the U.S decision on Friday, calling it a "day of rage".

Hamas calling for a “day of rage” ...shocker!

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Islam doing what Islam seems to do best ,cause fear and fighting all and sundry , when will they leave the middle ages and come into the modern world?

The bigots should indeed do so, will you agree to join them?

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, cliveshep said:

So America has finally got it's head out of it's a** and accepted what has been fact for nearly 70 years - Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

 

The UK must have piles by now because it still won't accept it. It's bloomin' stupid. Sovereign nations choose their capital cities, it is solely their choice and no business of anyone else. If the silly Arabs had accepted this long ago instead of pontificating about ever more jihads they wouldn't keep getting slapped down so violently, and their people would not be suffering so. Yes I agree that 70 years ago Israel land-grabbed, but the Allies are not whiter than white for they redrew country borders to suit themselves and not the people who got displaced. They gave the Jews nowhere to go so who can blame them for saying "enough is enough, before the UK and Russia murder any more of us let's go back to our ancestral home and FIGHT to take and keep it."  It was after all their promised land millennia ago.

 

I think the Jews have done well, with enemies sworn to destroy them on every side they have survived triumphantly. Now they even sell arms to America and other countries. Bully for them!

“The Jews”? 

 

Do you mean the Israelis by that...there’s more than one faith in Israel. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Bluespunk

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

Compared with the Israeli fighting forces, PEASANTS!!

 

This is going to end in tears for Palestinians, again.

It's been tears for the Palestinians since 1949. Why would more tears make a difference? The hopeless have nothing to lose.

Perhaps the danger for Israelis lies not in Israel, but elsewhere, where the Israeli fighting forces are not.

[boomerangutang]

3 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Now enlighten me , what other main stream religions are constantly keeping women as inferior subjects ,what other religions are causing terror around the world , what other religions ,oh i give up its a waste of time ,those who wish to be blind will never see .

Maybe not quite as bad, but hard-right Christians in the US are causing a lot of grief, both in the US and elsewhere.  

[Srikcir]

What I find interesting is that beyond Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's obvious support for Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, nothing has been said of reaction from the Israeli people in general (to the extent that I can google).

While Jewish Israelis constitute about 80% of the population, only about 20% are Israeli-born versus foreign born. That suggests possible divergence of opinion within Israel from that of Netanyahu on the issue of Jerusalem.

 

According to a poll released May 26, 2017 by Channel 2:

"... most Israelis support the creation of two states, one Israeli and the other Palestinian. Of the respondents, 47% said they support a diplomatic arrangement based on the 1967 borders — but keeping the major settlement blocs — while 39% opposed such an arrangement.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/05/israel-palestinians-two-state-solution-benjamin-netanyahu.html

 

There are currently investigations of bribery, fraud and breach of trust against Netanyahu. Should he be indicted, his governing coalition could collapse, boosting the prospects of new elections.

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/opposition-mk-slams-netanyahu-first-mafia-pm-of-israel/

 

Will a new PM have the same position on Jerusalem as Netanyahu - no two state solution?

While on the one hand Trump's "Jerusalem Decision" might distract Netanyahu's opposition, it may also boost further opposition against him.

 

 

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

...
While Jewish Israelis constitute about 80% of the population, only about 20% are Israeli-born versus foreign born. That suggests possible divergence of opinion within Israel from that of Netanyahu on the issue of Jerusalem.
...

 

I agree that the story about opinions of Israeli Jews (and also American Jews that generally have a higher percentage that are more liberal) to this move is interesting, a point you made demands correction.

 

You said 20 percent of Israeli Jews are native born sabras. That is totally wrong! 

 

Quote

In 2010, over 4,000,000 Israeli Jews (70%) were sabras, with an even greater percentage of Israeli Jewish youths falling into this category.^[4] In 2015, about 75% of Israel's Jewish population was native-born.

So you've been corrected. Also I find your assumption that there is a direct correlation (implied by your FALSE information about sabra percentages) to being a native born Israeli Jew (the vast majority) and being a right wing pro Bibi Jew to also be false. 

 

There is a Mizrahi / Ashkenazi political/cultural divide but I think that is lessening over time with intermarriage between those groups of Jews. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Jingthing

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's been tears for the Palestinians since 1949. Why would more tears make a difference? The hopeless have nothing to lose.

Perhaps the danger for Israelis lies not in Israel, but elsewhere, where the Israeli fighting forces are not.

 

That's the sort of thing people who are not Palestinian nor do have any first hand knowledge of their circumstances would say. People, as in ordinary folk, in Gaza are definitely not into another round of fighting. Certainly not with winter looming. People in the West Bank, while still living under an occupation, have more than Gazans' and in some areas even do alright, relatively speaking. The "nothing to lose" crowd are usually fanatics or armchair commentators.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

That's the sort of thing people who are not Palestinian nor do have any first hand knowledge of their circumstances would say. People, as in ordinary folk, in Gaza are definitely not into another round of fighting. Certainly not with winter looming. People in the West Bank, while still living under an occupation, have more than Gazans' and in some areas even do alright, relatively speaking. The "nothing to lose" crowd are usually fanatics or armchair commentators.

You either didn't read my post properly or are choosing not to answer what I wrote, but another subject altogether. Where did I say anything about Gaza or the West Bank?

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

What I find interesting is that beyond Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's obvious support for Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, nothing has been said of reaction from the Israeli people in general (to the extent that I can google).

While Jewish Israelis constitute about 80% of the population, only about 20% are Israeli-born versus foreign born. That suggests possible divergence of opinion within Israel from that of Netanyahu on the issue of Jerusalem.

 

According to a poll released May 26, 2017 by Channel 2:

"... most Israelis support the creation of two states, one Israeli and the other Palestinian. Of the respondents, 47% said they support a diplomatic arrangement based on the 1967 borders — but keeping the major settlement blocs — while 39% opposed such an arrangement.

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/05/israel-palestinians-two-state-solution-benjamin-netanyahu.html

 

There are currently investigations of bribery, fraud and breach of trust against Netanyahu. Should he be indicted, his governing coalition could collapse, boosting the prospects of new elections.

 https://www.timesofisrael.com/opposition-mk-slams-netanyahu-first-mafia-pm-of-israel/

 

Will a new PM have the same position on Jerusalem as Netanyahu - no two state solution?

While on the one hand Trump's "Jerusalem Decision" might distract Netanyahu's opposition, it may also boost further opposition against him.

 

 

 

As JT pointed out, the demographics bit was incorrect.

 

I think that for many Israeli Jews, Jerusalem is somewhat more consensual issue than the two-state solution. That is to say, talk about concessions related to Jerusalem is likely to generate more resistance, even among those who do not support Netanyahu.

 

There are actually quite a bit of commentary in the media and social media. Other than the expected partisan views aired, many seem unexcited - for one thing, from an Israeli point of view, Jerusalem is already the capital (I think many might not be fully aware of how controversial the issue is, internationally), and then there won't be any actual changes anyway (the embassy move, if it will materialize, will be years away). Probably going to whine about the visa hassle once it is gone from its current, easier to access location.

 

With regard to how a new government will tackle issues - specifics would depend on elections outcome, the prevailing political and security conditions up to the formation of the government. There is no hardcore pro-peace leadership of magnitude on the opposition. Milder than Netanyahu, sure, more willing to go forward with concessions, yes. Problem remains the same, though - a right wing government is less interested but more capable on this front (due to the left and center opposition support for peace moves). A center/left government would have to deal with full blown criticism from the right wing.

 

Overall, this plays well (so far) for Netanyahu - boosts nationalistic sentiment, shifts public attention away from his investigations, and knowing the Palestinians, a good chance they'll give him another excuse to dodge by engaging in some violent reaction. At the end of the day, though, the Trump administration is almost bound to ask for something - that's when things will start to be interesting.

[Catoni]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

What a wonderful diversion for Israel too. They can now dust off their favorite meme: we cannot talk a divided Palestinian partner or we cannot talk to a militarized Hamas.

 

Every time Hamas and the Palestinian Authority look like reconciling their differences, Israel throws a spanner in the works.

 

Hamas and PA settling their differences, peace talks with Israel about to start, then the pyromaniac Trump completely unnecessarily announces his Jerusalem move, despite advice it will cause trouble.

 

You'd have thought Trump or his puppet masters had planned it this way.

Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, (which in reality it is, and has been at least since 1948) is something that both Democratic and Republican presidents have been promising to do for decades.

    Finally, Donald Trump is the president who kept the promise.    Shocking ? ?

What's wrong with recognizing reality?    Oh.... it get's terrorists and the far left upset.  Well.... good ! 

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You either didn't read my post properly or are choosing not to answer what I wrote, but another subject altogether. Where did I say anything about Gaza or the West Bank?

 

Were you talking about some hypothetical Palestinians who got nothing to lose or actual ones? Them Palestinians that do have something to lose mostly reside in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

 

[Sir Dude]

Palestinians/Hamas etc. are probably unwise to just fly-off-the-handle and start talking uprising etc. etc. as that will only end in tears for them as it gives the Israelis an excuse to roll out the tanks, carry out air strikes and blast the hell out of who the want to as they won't cop much flak for defending themselves, never have for obvious historical reasons. The Israelis will just use it to degrade the capabilities of Hezbollah and Hamas to set them back militarily 5-10 years and gives the IDF carte blanch to do what it wants to plus it will kill off any chance of peace talks in the near future (all of which is OK with the Israelis). Suites Israel fine if the brainwashed fanatics want to get all rowdy and mouthy as it doesn't really want peace in the form that's being currently offered and the mullahs won't even recognize the country and have vowed to destroy it. Six of one and a half dozen of the other.

[Catoni]

8 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

Palestinians/Hamas etc. are probably unwise to just fly-off-the-handle and start talking uprising etc. etc. as that will only end in tears for them as it gives the Israelis an excuse to roll out the tanks, carry out air strikes and blast the hell out of who the want to as they won't cop much flak for defending themselves, never have for obvious historical reasons. The Israelis will just use it to degrade the capabilities of Hezbollah and Hamas to set them back militarily 5-10 years and gives the IDF carte blanch to do what it wants to plus it will kill off any chance of peace talks in the near future (all of which is OK with the Israelis). Suites Israel fine if the brainwashed fanatics want to get all rowdy and mouthy as it doesn't really want peace in the form that's being currently offered and the mullahs won't even recognize the country and have vowed to destroy it. Six of one and a half dozen of the other.

     Israel in the Camp David Summit in 2000 offered Yasser Arafat and the P.L.O. an excellent settlement which would have been a good compromise for both sides.  There would have been give and take on both sides.

                      Yasser Arafat refused... wanting 100 % of his demands to be met. 

    Democrat President Bill Clinton and also his wife, Senator Hillary Clinton,  blamed Arafat for the failure.

    Clinton said he told Arafat that by turning down the best peace deal he was ever going to get - the one proffered by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and brokered by Clinton in July, 2000 at the Camp David Summit-the Palestinian leader was only guaranteeing the election of the hawkish Ariel Sharon.

    At the time, Hillary said "There is no basis for renewing the talks with the Palestinians in the absence of a commitment on the part of Yasser Arafat to end the violence and in the absence of willingness on his part to take the necessary steps to do so,"
     In an interview with Ha'aretz, senator Hillary Clinton said that "responsibility for the failure of the peace process and the deterioration in the violence lies with Arafat."
https://www.haaretz.com/hillary-clinton-blames-arafat-for-failure-of-peace-process-1.52170

[Ron19]

A number of off topic posts and answers have been removed.

This topic is about " Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel. "

If this keeps up keep in mind that holidays are on special this week.

[Ron19]

You have already been warned once, I am not joking.

A number of off topic posts and answers have been removed.

This topic is about " Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel. "

If this keeps up keep in mind that holidays are on special this week.

[Catoni]

6 hours ago, car720 said:

I have often wondered though.

What it Israel rich in?  Where does all of its money come from?

Usually the only time the USA befriends you is if you have something they want, i.e. America's interests, or if you have some control over them.

     You may wish to go online and do a little study of the Israeli economy.  They are among the world leaders in several categories. Leading exports include machinery and equipment, computer software, cut diamonds, agricultural products, chemicals, and textiles and apparel; Microsoft and Intel are among leading industries with a presence in Israel. Their education system is first rate with universities ranking among the top 50 in the world in computer science....  in 2016, Israeli exports reached $51.61 billion. Israel also has one of the lowest external debts in the world, and they have a large tourist industry of course which brings lots of money in. 

    Wikipedia has an excellent article on Israel.  You may be interested in the section on Economy.

Wikipedia also has a separate page on Science and Technology in Israel..    very interesting...    

[dexterm]

The Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded, occupied, and ethnically cleansed, by mainly European colonists not the other way round, so I guess they can demonstrate their resistance any way they see fit, as they are entitled to under international law. Although I would prefer non violent passive resistance. Arm themselves in a smart cellphone intifada rather than stones, flood the social media with images of Israeli brutality and shame Israel before the world.

 

Sometimes it may seem futile in the face of overwhelmimg Israeli military might and US influence, but the alternative is rolling over and accept anything that Israel feels like dishing out.

Edited December 8, 2017 by dexterm

[sanemax]

I wonder whether the Palestinian uprising will achieve their goal of replacing Israel with a Palestinian state .

I am surprised that they haven't though of this before

[sanemax]

16 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 Arm themselves in a smart cellphone intifada rather than stones, flood the social media with images of Israeli brutality and shame Israel before the world.

The problem with that approach is that if they do not attack the Israelis, they will no photo opportunities to take photos of Israeli brutality .

   They would need to provoke the Israelis into retaliation, before any photo opportunities will arise

[dexterm]

7 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I wonder whether the Palestinian uprising will achieve their goal of replacing Israel with a Palestinian state .

I am surprised that they haven't though of this before

Helps to focus world attention on Palestinianians' struggle against injustice. Better than silent acceptance. It has helped you and me to focus on that question right now.

[Jingthing]

Palestinian violence, threats of violence, threats of uprisings, actual uprisings, etc. are related to the probability that the Palestinians will not be coming to the negotiation table anytime soon (well understandable) -- in response to trump's ill advised and ill timed pronouncements.

But maybe not at all ill advised and ill timed for trump's political purposes though.

 

Here's a theory about that -- 

 

Quote

And that, I fear, is the real point of Trump’s December 6 speech. From everything we have been able to glean, the much ballyhooed Trump Middle East peace plan scheduled to be unveiled early in 2018 will be a total non-starter. It will be rejected by the Palestinians precisely because it does not deal with Jerusalem in the way they want (two capitals) and does not give them a state in anywhere near the entirety of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Instead it tries to buy Palestinian concessions with Saudi money. By now it should have dawned on Messrs. Jared Kushner and Jason Greenblatt, the vanguard of Trump’s vaunted peace team, that “economic peace” has never worked with Palestinians. This is definitely not an economic conflict.

Read more: https://forward.com/opinion/389466/trumps-jerusalem-move-is-a-ploy-to-protect-jared-kushner/

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The problem with that approach is that if they do not attack the Israelis, they will no photo opportunities to take photos of Israeli brutality .

   They would need to provoke the Israelis into retaliation, before any photo opportunities will arise

The IDF illegal army of occupation and illegal fanatical settlers are quite capable of offering photo opportunities unaided.

 

No doubt in the current demonstrations the IDF will overreact with disproportionate force, and the world will witness it, despite Trump's call for Israeli restraint..not of course that he was expecting any trouble because of his announcement.

[dexterm]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Palestinian violence, threats of violence, threats of uprisings, actual uprisings, etc. are related to the probability that the Palestinians will not be coming to the negotiation table anytime soon (well understandable) -- in response to trump's ill advised and ill timed pronouncements.

But maybe not at all ill advised and ill timed for trump's political purposes though.

 

Here's a theory about that -- 

 

Read more: https://forward.com/opinion/389466/trumps-jerusalem-move-is-a-ploy-to-protect-jared-kushner/

 

 

Good article. Covers more eloquently much of what has already been said on this forum.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

The Palestinians are the ones who have been invaded, occupied, and ethnically cleansed, by mainly European colonists not the other way round, so I guess they can demonstrate their resistance any way they see fit, as they are entitled to under international law. Although I would prefer non violent passive resistance. Arm themselves in a smart cellphone intifada rather than stones, flood the social media with images of Israeli brutality and shame Israel before the world.

 

Sometimes it may seem futile in the face of overwhelmimg Israeli military might and US influence, but the alternative is rolling over and accept anything that Israel feels like dishing out.

 

Same old tirade, same old vehement hyperbole, same old slogans. None directly on topic.

 

Your bogus alternatives are not real. It is not either a violent struggle or "rolling over".

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

Helps to focus world attention on Palestinianians' struggle against injustice. Better than silent acceptance. It has helped you and me to focus on that question right now.

 

Only you do not actually provide an answer. And you are by no means "focusing" on the "right now".

Once more the alternatives are not a violent struggle or "silent acceptance", that's just the standard BS formula you present.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Morch

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Same old tirade, same old vehement hyperbole, same old slogans. None directly on topic.

 

Your bogus alternatives are not real. It is not either a violent struggle or "rolling over".

Yes I am on topic, discussing all forms of Palestinian resistance, but you clearly don't like the message, and offer nothing on topic yourself, apart from the usual flaming.

Edited December 8, 2017 by dexterm