How safe are land chanotes on samui?

[Will E Vormer]

With the current military governent currently investigating illegal land ownership on islands such as Koh Chang, Lipe and (apparently soon) Koh Lanta, can we trust that beach front and hillside chanotes on Samui are future proof? I notice alot of keen prices atm on certain parts of the island, which to me, rings alarm bells

[trogers]

Are you asking about the safety of illegal acts?

[Will E Vormer]

No, I am asking if people who bought chanote land in good faith over the last 10 years, or people looking to purchase land - will find themselves with a worthless chanote and risk of losing their homes in future, due to land areas being illegally issued a chanote by unscrupulous officials who then quietly retire.

This has happened on various islands on a huge scale. Koh Chang is a prime example, with one agent knowingly trying to offload land for sellers, when both parties know that area is under investigation. A prime example is a large luxury condo development overlooking Bangbao fishing village. Its under investigation right now with court dates, yet the owners are still marketing and selling the next phase!

Also a well known seaview luxury condo development on the south tip of Phuket has just been found to have suspect status, with some owners quietly offloading their condos at keen prices.

 

So to reiterate, are Samui plots generally safe, or if not, which parts of the island may have areas which are potentially high risk?

Edited December 15, 2017 by Will E Vormer

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

The chanotes that are investigated as a rule encroached on forest or beach land. Always have the land office resurvey the land before a purchase. You can also ask the forestry department if a specific piece of land are under investigation or not. Talk to people staying in around the land as they will know whats going  on about the land.  

[Will E Vormer]

Thanks Southern Star, thats good advice. I hadnt thought about the forestry dept part.

Just feel with the current situation that there shd be a fixed thread to help potential buyers avoid getting stung. A v high risk time to buy land imo.

[Ulic]

Like musical chairs whoever is holding the chanote when the music stops is the looser.

Lots of reports of corruption in the land office in Samui. I would not trust any of them.

[PoorSucker]

There are titles for 200,000 rai on Samui.

Problem is that the Island is only 150.000 rai.

 

From 2006.

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/encroachment-forest-land-samui.html

[Will E Vormer]

13 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

There are titles for 200,000 rai on Samui.

Problem is that the Island is only 150.000 rai.

 

From 2006.

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/encroachment-forest-land-samui.html

Yes! I know that there was a clampdown a couple of years back but I see alot of people selling up or selling keenly priced plots in the north of the island. Something tells me that some may have worthless chanotes.

[Will E Vormer]

Btw I dont know much about tbe situation there, but a relative's friend is in charge of investigating illegal land deeds on Koh Chang(which came in v useful this year!)

Edited December 15, 2017 by Will E Vormer

[Thaidream]

I would never ever buy land or a condo on any island in Thailand to include Samui and Phuket. These places have of a history of issues regarding illegal chanotes. In fact, buying any type of condo or land requires extensive research and  an understanding of how the legal system and land regulations work.  It is somewhat complex and one needs to either speak and read Thai or have a trusted Thai speaker with them.

My philosophy- when there is a doubt -don't buy.

[robertson468]

1 hour ago, Ulic said:

Like musical chairs whoever is holding the chanote when the music stops is the looser.

Lots of reports of corruption in the land office in Samui. I would not trust any of them.

And you have proof of that?  I have many, many Friends on the Island who through the Company system own land and have built their houses.  Sure there are crooks around, but if you don't do your proper investigation before purchasing, more fool you.

[Henryford]

22 minutes ago, robertson468 said:

And you have proof of that?  I have many, many Friends on the Island who through the Company system own land and have built their houses.  Sure there are crooks around, but if you don't do your proper investigation before purchasing, more fool you.

That alone is an illegal act. They don't "own" anything.

[Will E Vormer]

No one shd come to Thailand expecting the benefits without some level of risk, which is lessened by due diligence.

Alot of people say 'dont buy condos' but I never regretted buying my place.

 

 

[bleble]

3 hours ago, Will E Vormer said:

No, I am asking if people who bought chanote land in good faith over the last 10 years, or people looking to purchase land - will find themselves with a worthless chanote and risk of losing their homes in future, due to land areas being illegally issued a chanote by unscrupulous officials who then quietly retire.

This has happened on various islands on a huge scale. Koh Chang is a prime example, with one agent knowingly trying to offload land for sellers, when both parties know that area is under investigation. A prime example is a large luxury condo development overlooking Bangbao fishing village. Its under investigation right now with court dates, yet the owners are still marketing and selling the next phase!

Also a well known seaview luxury condo development on the south tip of Phuket has just been found to have suspect status, with some owners quietly offloading their condos at keen prices.

 

So to reiterate, are Samui plots generally safe, or if not, which parts of the island may have areas which are potentially high risk?

 

Evidences ? Or maybe you know more than the press ?

 

 

[PerkinsCuthbert]

How safe are lambs to the slaughter?

[munchlet]

I have "owned" land in Samui since 1990. 2 houses in the South of the island with Chanotes, and one big piece in the North. There are many complexities with land in Samui and one of the reasons it is so complicated relates to a regulation that was issued to protect foest areas in the larger islands that restricted the rights that Thais have everywhere else in the country to upgrade SK1 and PBT5 titles. One day this will be overturned,but in the meantime, it has caused problems and opportunities for officials to make oney, funny that, the regs are supposed to "protect us" but in the end, screw us. But with experience, it is safe to invest in Chanotes, but

 

1) Check when the Chanote was issued, if it was before the  mid 90s when the idiot rule above came into  force, the chances are its OK

2) Check with the forestry department about watersheds and protected areas

3) Always check the origin of each Chanote, if it was upgraded, it should refer to the documents that made the upgrade possible. there has, since the new regs, been an issue with "flying" SK1s where they have been used to upgrade land in places where they were not used for, this is where the corruption comes in, officials turning a blind eye.

4) SK1s and NS3s when they are old, were not measured very accurately and this means that their actual size was always bigger than that declared to the government (to save tax, old Thai trick). When the Chanotes were issued, Land Dept officals were incentivised to issue documents that covered all the land that had historically been owned by the upgrading family. Problem is, that sometimes, people got too zealous and there were instances of huge amounts of forest and public land being gobbled up by very small underlying plots. These can be suspect.

 

So basic rules, a) Old chanotes are the best, or those subdivided from old chanotes,  Hire a competent lawyer who has a track record in these matters, some of the them work in cahoots with officals to earn money from illegal upgrades, and c) Use  your common sense, if something is being sold cheap, it smells funny, maybe it is cheap, but be extra sure to check it out from a due diligence standpoint, d) don't listen to the boo boys who say that its all corrupt on the islands, because it isn't, just go out there and manage your risk, simple as that as with any business transaction.

 

Thats about it for now. 

 

 

[trogers]

53 minutes ago, Henryford said:

That alone is an illegal act. They don't "own" anything.

Thus, my question...

[Thaidream]

No foreigner can own land in Thailand......If a company is set up for the sole purpose of buying land ...it is illegal regardless of  whether one can actually do it. There are always lawyers and their minions who can get it done but if push comes to shove, the land can be seized at any time if declared illegal. Remember, all of this involves nominees who are normally provided by the 'lawyers'.  There was a recent thread about a person who used 'fake' nominees and was blacklisted.

Caveat Emptor -Let the buyer beware.

 

[Will E Vormer]

1 hour ago, bleble said:

 

Evidences ? Or maybe you know more than the press ?

 

 

Yes, what do you want to know? PM

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, robertson468 said:

And you have proof of that?  I have many, many Friends on the Island who through the Company system own land and have built their houses.  Sure there are crooks around, but if you don't do your proper investigation before purchasing, more fool you.

 

 

The system you are referring to includes using ' nominee ' Thais to form a company to purchase land to obtain/buy/build a house. That is not what Thai companies are supposedly there to do. Your friends have acted illegally even though this is a time honoured way used to ' circumvent ' the system.

 

Their land and houses are at risk at the whim of whichever authorities are in power during the next ' crackdown ' on illegally set up companies for the purpose of land development.

[trogers]

2 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

 

The system you are referring to includes using ' nominee ' Thais to form a company to purchase land to obtain/buy/build a house. That is not what Thai companies are supposedly there to do. Your friends have acted illegally even though this is a time honoured way used to ' circumvent ' the system.

 

Their land and houses are at risk at the whim of whichever authorities are in power during the next ' crackdown ' on illegally set up companies for the purpose of land development.

Or those nominees and the lawyer cheats the foreigner, since they legally own the company, and thus the property...

 

So, how safe is an illegal act?

[Scouse123]

3 minutes ago, trogers said:

Or those nominees and the lawyer cheats the foreigner, since they legally own the company, and thus the property...

 

So, how safe is an illegal act?

 

How many times have we seen here where lawyers collude with the wives/nominees/girlfriends and always to cheat the foreigner out of their money. Foreigners need to accept if they move into the murky world of companies to buy land there is a good chance of being cheated.

 

After 23 years and doing this in the past myself, I would just say now I would not do it again after all I have seen. I am too old to start again and too wise to push my luck again.

[trogers]

1 minute ago, Scouse123 said:

 

How many times have we seen here where lawyers collude with the wives/nominees/girlfriends and always to cheat the foreigner out of their money. Foreigners need to accept if they move into the murky world of companies to buy land there is a good chance of being cheated.

 

After 23 years and doing this in the past myself, I would just say now I would not do it again after all I have seen. I am too old to start again and too wise to push my luck again.

And the joke is that the cheated foreigner wants the law to protect him and punish the cheaters, when he, himself, was the first criminal to break the law.

[Will E Vormer]

I'm sure most foreigners wd want to avoid that companu nominee stuff. Its not like they set out to break the law.

Anyway, there's only one way for farangs to own a house without having a land issue. Altho this way, you don't own land under the house, because there isnt any land under the house. See if you can figure that one out.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Will E Vormer

[Thaidream]

Of course- foreigners  can legally purchase a condo- the foreigner  has purchased air- not land. There have been instances of foreigners as well as Thais purchasing condo's and been cheated.  Some foreigners have had good luck. Personally, I wouldn't purchase any condo in Thailand.

My wife has purchased land and a house. Should the worse happen and we get a divorce- I am prepared to walk away.  My pension is untouchable so I won't starve. I don't do Usufruct either since these are also subject to manipulation.

There are very few real legal protections unless on has deep pockets and is prepared to fight the system for years -  

The best advice I got 50 years ago when I first came to Thailand- Never spend more than you are prepared to lose and 'They will always believe a Thai before they believe a foreigner'. Many decades of life in Thailand has proved this advice to be true.

 

[Tofer]

7 hours ago, Thaidream said:

No foreigner can own land in Thailand......If a company is set up for the sole purpose of buying land ...it is illegal regardless of  whether one can actually do it. There are always lawyers and their minions who can get it done but if push comes to shove, the land can be seized at any time if declared illegal. Remember, all of this involves nominees who are normally provided by the 'lawyers'.  There was a recent thread about a person who used 'fake' nominees and was blacklisted.

Caveat Emptor -Let the buyer beware.

 

Why does the company have to "involve nominees"?

 

I was under the impression a foreigner could own 49% of a company that owned land with one more Thai than foreigner shareholders holding the remaining 51%. Also that such a company is perfectly legal providing the shareholder can prove their wherewithal to purchase said shareholding.

[Scouse123]

2 minutes ago, Tofer said:

Why does the company have to "involve nominees"?

 

I was under the impression a foreigner could own 49% of a company that owned land with one more Thai than foreigner shareholders holding the remaining 51%. Also that such a company is perfectly legal providing the shareholder can prove their wherewithal to purchase said shareholding.

 

Because of the fact that the foreigner, as a rule, is terrified of being cheated out of his/her money as a minority shareholder and not without good reason!

[Will E Vormer]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Of course- foreigners  can legally purchase a condo- the foreigner  has purchased air- not land.

 

Nope, other than condos.

And I don't regret having bought a condo in BK when the exchange rate was better

[khunPer]

12 hours ago, Will E Vormer said:

No, I am asking if people who bought chanote land in good faith over the last 10 years, or people looking to purchase land - will find themselves with a worthless chanote and risk of losing their homes in future, due to land areas being illegally issued a chanote by unscrupulous officials who then quietly retire.

This has happened on various islands on a huge scale. Koh Chang is a prime example, with one agent knowingly trying to offload land for sellers, when both parties know that area is under investigation. A prime example is a large luxury condo development overlooking Bangbao fishing village. Its under investigation right now with court dates, yet the owners are still marketing and selling the next phase!

Also a well known seaview luxury condo development on the south tip of Phuket has just been found to have suspect status, with some owners quietly offloading their condos at keen prices.

 

So to reiterate, are Samui plots generally safe, or if not, which parts of the island may have areas which are potentially high risk?

I bought land on Samui, 12 years ago.

 

First of all, it's depending where you buy land. Up hill (mountains) might be a problem, as land sloping 45 degree (if I remember right) or more are government land. Also land in what looks like a forest area one shall be careful with, same for low deed land given to Thai families for farming only. Furthermore it seem like – without knowing the details enough – that land within some gated projects, has been troubled; one particular project seem closed off, even some have houses there, and a number of houses were up for sale at time of closure. When reading the project prospects, and reading others experience, one would not believe it was the project.

 

You can normally ask an experienced real estate lawyer to do due diligence on a plot (or plots) of interest. Much of the land at Samui is safe to buy, especially when you buy family-land from locals, and outside "gated" projects.

 

My own experience:

I was looking on many land plots before I bought. Some were up hill with excellent views, but low title deeds; i.e. only tax-papers. I was offered almost a mountain top, 8 rai with perfect view over both Maenam and Lamai bays, almost 600 meters up, from a very important local person (I believe number two in rank). However, even the price was attractive, the deed was nothing but tax reciepts; perhaps we (my GF and I) could have it upgraded to Chanute deed, as we was told, perhaps that risk would have been to high, especially when building a dream-house up there. So it was thanks for an exciting drive uphill, and an outstanding view, but no thanks to buy the land.

 

Another hill top was next to the airport, and there were already build some luxury villas on the way up; with concrete road and electricity all way up to the hill-top plot for sale. 240 degree view over Chaweng Bay and Bangrak (Big Buddha), and even looking down at the airport, one couldn't hear the planes. Big enough for subdivision in three (or more) plots, while keeping the best top position. But again, the documentation – i.e. title deed, or lack of same – was too low; so even very tempted, it was also a no thanks.

 

We looked at many flat land plots with coconut palms by various beaches, all Chanute title deeds, so presumably safe to buy – provided one covered for and knew the risks about a foreigner and landownership in Thailand – but for one-or-other reason they were not really the beachfront I wanted, even the all land plots were nice big size; either too narrow beach, or bad beach during low tide. But one evening in 2005, the owner of a little beach restaurant said that a recently closed restaurant, 100 meter further East on the beach, were up for sale. Within a couple of hours the owner was found, the plot "investigated" – not much need, I already knew both the beach and that particular restaurant – price negotiated, and meeting with the Head-of-Village, who proved the deed was legal, and made the sales agreement, and signed as witness. It was an old Nor Sor 3 deed, so it took a little while to have it upgraded to Chanote, and later – before starting to build anything – have borders cleared and signed for by both Thai neighbors and Marine Department; the latter again kind of proof for a legal plot and position of land markers (which was re-measured by the Land Office, when applying for a Chanote upgrade). Also when upgrading, anyone can make objection within a certain number of days (30, I believe), and it's announced by Head-of-Village (a document on his wall). Before I started to build, the title deed was also kind of approved by Samui Court, as everybody at that time needed to pass through the Court, due to legalization of beach front protections and Marine Department claiming new land markers at the beach line.

 

It was thanks to my clever girlfriend – she was already used to deal with land from her village – that we got safe through everything, and I did not fall into something which might, or might not, have been a trap with too low deeds (or lack of same), and we was dealing with local families instead of project companies, and using Head-of-Village for verifying; he normally knows about most of what's happening locally.

 

There are plenty of land and houses for sale, also plenty of safe land (with or without house) to buy; but there are probably also some traps. Personally – thanks to now staying a number of years on Samui – I would avoid, or at least double-check, some up-hill plots and projects, even they seem extremely attractive.

[trogers]

3 hours ago, Tofer said:

Why does the company have to "involve nominees"?

 

I was under the impression a foreigner could own 49% of a company that owned land with one more Thai than foreigner shareholders holding the remaining 51%. Also that such a company is perfectly legal providing the shareholder can prove their wherewithal to purchase said shareholding.

The meaning of nominees is that they are selling their names for use as shareholders, while the source of funds is from some other person(s).

 

You can set up a legitimate Thai company if you can find rich Thais who actually come out funds from their pockets to own the majority shares.

 

Still such a company would make no business sense just being set up to hold only a piece of land, or to build a building for the exclusive use of the minority foreign shareholder.