Is it a bad to buy a car that was once LPG powered?

[miketu]

I was looking for used cars to buy on ThaiVisa Classified and saw ads that boasted their car for sale was "NEVER LPG".   Is that a bad thing to have a car that was once LPG powered?  I would think it would be good to have LPG in a car especially if you leave the car un-driven for months at a time because the fuel won't go bad like in a gasoline vehicle.  

 

Also are there any opinions on preference of NGV natural gas power over LPG.  The main advantage I know of natural gas is that it is lighter than air and won't accumulate in low areas like LPG will.  But not sure of availability here vs LPG.

 

Thanks.

[KhunMhee]

It seems like if you're looking for a performance car then yes its likely bad. LPG is not a high powered fuel. But from how you described it might be the owner is trying to say it was never LPG as in they never converted it back to gas after the fact. That's a car I would stay away from as previously converted vehicles have lots of issues after the fact.

[pgrahmm]

I would never want one that has been run on it.....

It's a good + listing point for the seller....

[miketu]

25 minutes ago, pgrahmm said:

I would never want one that has been run on it.....

It's a good + listing point for the seller....

Ok thanks, what's your opinion on a NGV car?

[miketu]

44 minutes ago, KhunMhee said:

It seems like if you're looking for a performance car then yes its likely bad. LPG is not a high powered fuel. But from how you described it might be the owner is trying to say it was never LPG as in they never converted it back to gas after the fact. That's a car I would stay away from as previously converted vehicles have lots of issues after the fact.

Ok good point, thank you.  What's your opinion on a NVG powered car?

[KhunMhee]

13 minutes ago, miketu said:

Ok good point, thank you.  What's your opinion on a NVG powered car?

Depends on where you live. If you're around both NGV is better. From emissions to power. LPG lasts longer but is known to need more work per KM. LPG in Thailand is high in Propane where other countries it's higher in Butane. NGV is consistent world wide.

 

Either way its cheaper than Gas but you don't get the same power from it. Better for the environment as well. Good luck on your purchase

[pgrahmm]

16 minutes ago, miketu said:

Ok thanks, what's your opinion on a NGV car?

Ever see those pictures of the silver vans that crashed then were engulfed in flames instantly killing everyone?

If the system is ruptured anywhere & there's heat/spark they turn into a death trap.....

I was in an LPG station & watched as they popped the hood & plugged in to fill.....This was only about 12-15" from a frontal impact point.....LPG pools downward when released & would go right toward the exhaust manifolds heat.....That's why nobody has a chance to get out....Not sure on the NG tendencies but would have to be somewhat similar.....

I won't ride in one (I drive our car) but if it's a tour I'll only get into a diesel powered....Or we don't go....

Safety over rules fuel any day....

[pgrahmm]

Footnote - LPG is known to shorten engine life = that's why the sellers post it in the ad....

[BEVUP]

41 minutes ago, pgrahmm said:

Footnote - LPG is known to shorten engine life = that's why the sellers post it in the ad....

Yes dries out the rubber bits that's why there should be a little oil bottle in the engine bay you top up ( this was quite a while back ) 

They also recently (a few yrs or so back ) made a Ford totally reliant on LPG

[Rimmer]

Moved to motoring forum

[stevenl]

2 reasons to mention 'no LPG'.

 

LPG is known to let the engine run warmer, in theory leading to a shorter engine life (afaik this has not been shown), and LPG only pays off if using high KM's, so LPG cars tend to have high km's.

[canthai55]

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/danger.html

Considering all of the factors above, an LPG fuel system is quite a lot safer than most Petrol or Diesel systems.

Mine - as a cost per km travelled - is 50% less on LPG than on gasoline.

Done nearly 200,000 km since new. No issues. Burns not one drop of oil, nor leaks anyway.

Does eat standard spark plugs - Iridium plugs stops this issue.

 

[pgrahmm]

18 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/danger.html

Considering all of the factors above, an LPG fuel system is quite a lot safer than most Petrol or Diesel systems.

Mine - as a cost per km travelled - is 50% less on LPG than on gasoline.

Done nearly 200,000 km since new. No issues. Burns not one drop of oil, nor leaks anyway.

Does eat standard spark plugs - Iridium plugs stops this issue.

 

I don't buy it....I've seen more LPG flambe accidents here over the past few years than I ever saw in the States involving regular fuels.....

Plus - look who the statement is from = an LPG conversion service.....

I happened to be involved with PG&E in California....There idea was to retrofit vehicles to CNG at at highly rebated cost so people could either use their filling stations or, in some instances be outfitted on their own property so they could transfer fuel into their own cars......Bonanza - new wrinkle, we're all getting rich on the ground floor = never happened & plug pulled for safety reasons.....

Also saw a couple of Ford truck engines that hiccupped & ignited back through the intake melting the engines = internal flame thrower.....

Here's the source of the highly debatable fuel tank information.....

That's why all manufacturers supply cars for safety crash testing procedures & are supplied with a rating system....

[cmrichsw]

Don't touch it 

[speedtripler]

Avoid anything converted in Thailand lol

[thrilled]

I own A NGV vehicle.I’ve had it 6 years and it does really good.

[speedtripler]

4 minutes ago, thrilled said:

I own A NGV vehicle.I’ve had it 6 years and it does really good.

What type of vehicle is it and how much mileage do you do? 

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, pgrahmm said:

Also saw a couple of Ford truck engines that hiccupped & ignited back through the intake melting the engines = internal flame thrower.....

 

A couple - care to hazard a guess as to how many are done in this country alone ?

Post a link to all these crashes and the resulting explosion caused by a fault in the LPG system.

Maybe your opinion - not the fact - is made on old old info.

Thousands and thousands - if not 10's of thousands - running around in LOS alone, for years, with no issue. Mine being one.

Seems like the issue lies with people who - when faced with the facts - still do not believe.

Prejudice runs rampant - by those with little or no knowledge, and no first hand experience.

 

[VocalNeal]

I have two vehicles that run on LPG. No problems. I would not be too bothered if I found a car I liked that had an LPG system. Just like any other part of a used car. Some OK , some not OK. 

It is mostly lack of understanding and/or lack of experience that clouds the market place. 

 

That being said if any vehicle was described as "never being".....anything... that would raise my hackles that the seller is mentioning that as a smoke screen for something else. 

 

Is a BMW that had its oil changed at 20,000 kms better or worse than one which has an LPG option but had its oil changed every 10,000kms? Some Mercs came NGV from the factory! 

 

I wouldn't touch NGV with a proverbial pole. Refueling station few and far between and refueling times is longer. Range is shorter etc..

[pgrahmm]

14 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

A couple - care to hazard a guess as to how many are done in this country alone ?

Post a link to all these crashes and the resulting explosion caused by a fault in the LPG system.

Maybe your opinion - not the fact - is made on old old info.

Thousands and thousands - if not 10's of thousands - running around in LOS alone, for years, with no issue. Mine being one.

Seems like the issue lies with people who - when faced with the facts - still do not believe.

Prejudice runs rampant - by those with little or no knowledge, and no first hand experience.

 

And those tour vans just instantly spontaneously combust after moderate to severe impact....??

 

Sorry - I retired out of the automotive industry & was involved with most systems & applications.....

 

Have you happened to notice the no LPG/NPG parking signs on some of the multi story parking garages in Thailand? They're there, if you look.....

Same reason they don't allow it in (most) condos.....

 

Glad you've had success with it....I think the OP has got some more info to consider while shopping his next vehicle....

[pacovl46]

According to a mechanic I know the trouble with LPG is that it creates more pressure in the combustion chamber than gas does. Most people who go for aftermarket conversions go the cheap route and don't reinforce the engine internally which will create problems later on. I would go only for a LPG car if it came like that from the factory or the owner has the receipt for the proper conversion, which in Europe costs about 6-8000 Euro as opposed to the LPG without reinforcement which comes in between 1500 to 2000 Euro.

[ToddinChonburi]

NGV systems are being installed at the factory.  LPG. Not.    That should tell you plenty.  

[canthai55]

27 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

According to a mechanic I know the trouble with LPG is that it creates more pressure in the combustion chamber than gas does. Most people who go for aftermarket conversions go the cheap route and don't reinforce the engine internally which will create problems later on. I would go only for a LPG car if it came like that from the factory or the owner has the receipt for the proper conversion, which in Europe costs about 6-8000 Euro as opposed to the LPG without reinforcement which comes in between 1500 to 2000 Euro.

LPG fuel has lower calorific content than gasoline i.e. less power. So it produces less stress on the engine at the moment of combustion.  What would you reinforce internally ? And why ?

What problems later on ?

Sounds like the mechanic you know ... doesn't

New multiport LPG conversion, using a fully Italian designed and produced system, in CNX - 30,000 baht complete and installed.

8000 Euro - how long to recoup your investment in fuel savings ?  Most likely never.

[Lacessit]

LPG and CNG are cheaper than gasoline. However, they do come with their own disadvantages.

There are vehicles manufactured to function on LPG and CNG from day one. They are probably the best bet, as the engines have been designed to cope with the higher temperatures. However, as they are dedicated fuel systems availability becomes an issue, particularly with CNG.

Conversions are another matter, because one does not know how good the conversion was, whether state of the art technology was used, or whether the engine valves and seats can accommodate these fuels.

CNG burns at about 600 C. LPG burns at about 470 C. Gasoline is much cooler, about 250 C. This has implications for engine life.

The other consideration is the extra tank weight that has to be dragged around by the engine. LPG needs a tank which can withstand pressures of 25 psi. CNG needs a tank which can withstand 250 psi. The LPG tank must be inspected every ten years. A CNG tank has to be inspected every year. A CNG tank is the equivalent of adding a 100 kg passenger to your car.

Personally, I'll stick with gasoline.

 

[pgrahmm]

47 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

LPG and CNG are cheaper than gasoline. However, they do come with their own disadvantages.

There are vehicles manufactured to function on LPG and CNG from day one. They are probably the best bet, as the engines have been designed to cope with the higher temperatures. However, as they are dedicated fuel systems availability becomes an issue, particularly with CNG.

Conversions are another matter, because one does not know how good the conversion was, whether state of the art technology was used, or whether the engine valves and seats can accommodate these fuels.

CNG burns at about 600 C. LPG burns at about 470 C. Gasoline is much cooler, about 250 C. This has implications for engine life.

The other consideration is the extra tank weight that has to be dragged around by the engine. LPG needs a tank which can withstand pressures of 25 psi. CNG needs a tank which can withstand 250 psi. The LPG tank must be inspected every ten years. A CNG tank has to be inspected every year. A CNG tank is the equivalent of adding a 100 kg passenger to your car.

Personally, I'll stick with gasoline.

 

Excellent & complete...

Thank you.....

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, pgrahmm said:

Excellent & complete...

Thank you.....

You're welcome.

[lindlake]

we have a honda city from new its  has been on lpg love it never had a problem  its done 150 k now still uses no oil we only use 600 bht for every 550 km 

 

[pacovl46]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

LPG fuel has lower calorific content than gasoline i.e. less power. So it produces less stress on the engine at the moment of combustion.  What would you reinforce internally ? And why ?

What problems later on ?

Sounds like the mechanic you know ... doesn't

New multiport LPG conversion, using a fully Italian designed and produced system, in CNX - 30,000 baht complete and installed.

8000 Euro - how long to recoup your investment in fuel savings ?  Most likely never.

Maybe I confused pressure with heat. The price in Euro applies to Germany, which is where I'm from. I'm not a mechanic myself and therefore I have no idea which engine parts need to be reinforced. LPG in Germany is roughly about half the price of gas in Germany. If you do a lot of kilometers a year you might be able to recoup the investment within 6 to 8 years, maybe less. Obviously it's only worth doing that to a new or nearly new car you plan on driving for a decade.

 

A friend of mine told me that the cars of most of his friends who did the cheap conversion started to not run properly after a while. That's all I know.

 

On a side note, LPG produces 40 or 60 percent less CO2 than gas powered cars.

[Saan]

6 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Yes dries out the rubber bits that's why there should be a little oil bottle in the engine bay you top up ( this was quite a while back ) 

They also recently (a few yrs or so back ) made a Ford totally reliant on LPG

Oils are used especially for LPG cars. Every taxis' in Australia are run on LPGs which says something. 

 

[toolpush]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

LPG and CNG are cheaper than gasoline. However, they do come with their own disadvantages.

There are vehicles manufactured to function on LPG and CNG from day one. They are probably the best bet, as the engines have been designed to cope with the higher temperatures. However, as they are dedicated fuel systems availability becomes an issue, particularly with CNG.

Conversions are another matter, because one does not know how good the conversion was, whether state of the art technology was used, or whether the engine valves and seats can accommodate these fuels.

CNG burns at about 600 C. LPG burns at about 470 C. Gasoline is much cooler, about 250 C. This has implications for engine life.

The other consideration is the extra tank weight that has to be dragged around by the engine. LPG needs a tank which can withstand pressures of 25 psi. CNG needs a tank which can withstand 250 psi. The LPG tank must be inspected every ten years. A CNG tank has to be inspected every year. A CNG tank is the equivalent of adding a 100 kg passenger to your car.

Personally, I'll stick with gasoline.

 

Gasoline has an ignition temperature of 232 degree C and a burning temperature of 945 degrees C