Airport JAIL!

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Where's the US diplomats when you need them?

 

I assume someone has contacted his Embassy!

What could the U.S Embassy do ?

[StayinThailand2much]

2 hours ago, poohy said:

Ok so they can refuse him entry , fair enough

 

BUT why not waltz him to an airport desk and let him buy a ticket  to USA  today hes got the cash 

 

Seems to be a lack of commonsense all round!

Because he would actually have to be given permission to enter Thailand (beyond the immigration desks)? You'd think that someone (embassy staff, friends) can buy a ticket for him, but why does it have to be the same airline he used travelling to Bangkok?? I wonder, what if that airline didn't have flights to his home country, and the country where he boarded doesn't want him? If it weren't so sad, you could say it's worthy of a Hollywood movie script; I'm thinking: "The Terminal"...

 

Anyhow, I wish him the best of luck!

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

There's probably more to the story than the OP knows or states. A one day overstay shouldn't result in deportation from Ukraine and a US citizen splitting his holiday between Thailand and Ukraine isn't really common either. Also getting jailed for a couple days because entry was refused sounds a bit unusual. They would just force him to fly home (or somewhere else if he's lucky). The immigration officer also wouldn't really know that he was refused entry to Ukraine unless he told them so. They could only raise suspicion because there were no entry/exit stamps from Ukraine and that he came back so quickly (who does visa runs to Ukraine?) but it's not like Ukraine sends Thailand "headsup, a deportee coming through!". Maybe he lied to the officer or tried to pull some other stunt. Also why would Ukraine pay for his return flight?

I agree that it does seem very strange that someone is refused entry (not deported as he never entered the country) for overstaying by just one day. 

 

Also the fact that the Ukraine authorities funded the ticket back to Thailand.  Normally it is down to PAX has to pay for his/her repatriation - unless it was an airline 'cockup.

 

Regarding Thai immigration being aware of his arrival, yes they would have been informed by their counterparts in the Ukraine.  That is standard procedure so that the destination country can arrange a 'welcoming committee' if necessary.

 

It is also puzzling as to why Thai immigration should be detaining him.  I was under the impression that US citizen qualify for visa exempt.

 

There certainly seem to be more that the OP is aware of.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by 007 RED

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I agree that it does seem very strange that someone is refused entry (not deported as he never entered the country) for overstaying by just one day. 

 

As stated previously, its likely that he was refused entry to the Ukraine because he had already been there for 90 days out of 180, making him ineligible to enter again

[JackThompson]

8 minutes ago, sanemax said:

What could the U.S Embassy do ?

In an ideal world, call their contact(s) here in Thailand, say, "Hey, there's one of our people in your airport immigration jail - no criminal charges or anything (assuming this is true) - he just needs to get home.  What do you say we get him on the next flight to the USA?"

 

This seems like that would be something Thailand and the USA could do for each others' citizens, within the other's respective country, without a major diplomatic incident or either feeling like their national-sovereignty has been violated.

[Russell17au]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

In retrospect, it would seem that choice was a pretty big mistake on his part, unfortunately.

 

Meanwhile, why is no one here asking -- why would Ukraine be deporting a U.S. citizen attempting to enter their country because he had, according to the poster here, a ONE day overstay on his prior tourist visa???

 

By contrast, if you have a tourist visa in Thailand and overstay by one day, you pay a relatively small fine at exit and go on your way. And AFAIK, having a one day overstay in Thailand now doesn't harm or impair your ability to come back later on a subsequent tourist visa...

 

So someone should be asking, what the heck is up with Ukraine?

 

Ukraine have different laws to Thailand and many other countries

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In an ideal world, call their contact(s) here in Thailand, say, "Hey, there's one of our people in your airport immigration jail - no criminal charges or anything (assuming this is true) - he just needs to get home.  What do you say we get him on the next flight to the USA?"

 

This seems like that would be something Thailand and the USA could do for each others' citizens, within the other's respective country, without a major diplomatic incident or either feeling like their national-sovereignty has been violated.

But we live in the real World where U.S citizens have to comply with rules, maybe thats where the problem lies, some U.S citizens think that they dont have to comply with any rules

[midas]

11 minutes ago, sanemax said:

As stated previously, its likely that he was refused entry to the Ukraine because he had already been there for 90 days out of 180, making him ineligible to enter again

if he was there on a 90 day tourist exemption the following passage caught my eye. Having been there myself during December a few years ago right when the Orange Revolution was taking place I can tell you there is nothing there in terms of tourist attractions! (Other than perhaps the Chernobyl nuclear disaster site)  I was there for about 5 days and that was enough.

So I'm intrigued as to what was so compelling regarding his visit as a tourist that he used up 90 days plus an extra one 

 

 

Quote

Tourist Visa (if applicable) means you are here as a tourist for a total of 90 days out of 180 days and cannot work, do any form of business under the terms of that Visa.  All you can do is look at the sights during your stay.

 

https://odessablog.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/more-visa-questions-about-ukraine-and-the-90180-days-rule-so-some-answers/

 

 

[007 RED]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In an ideal world, call their contact(s) here in Thailand, say, "Hey, there's one of our people in your airport immigration jail - no criminal charges or anything (assuming this is true) - he just needs to get home.  What do you say we get him on the next flight to the USA?"

 

This seems like that would be something Thailand and the USA could do for each others' citizens, within the other's respective country, without a major diplomatic incident or either feeling like their national-sovereignty has been violated.

Totally agree with you on your comments, but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.

 

I'm sure that you are aware that the assistance which Consulates can give to their citizens when they get into trouble is very limited.  In the case of the USA Embassy, their website does give some limited information https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/arrest-of-a-u-s-citizen/  May be the OP should contact them and inform them and ask their advice.

 

[JackThompson]

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

But we live in the real World where U.S citizens have to comply with rules, maybe thats where the problem lies, some U.S citizens think that they dont have to comply with any rules

If he had "violated rules" in Thailand - broken laws - then, that is different.  So far, no indication of that.  Some "individuals" in this world think they don't have to comply with rules - regardless of national-origin.
 

17 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Totally agree with you on your comments, but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.

 

I'm sure that you are aware that the assistance which Consulates can give to their citizens when they get into trouble is very limited.  In the case of the USA Embassy, their website does give some limited information https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/arrest-of-a-u-s-citizen/  May be the OP should contact them and inform them and ask their advice.

I realize if someone commits a crime, there is no "get out of jail free" card.

Well, unless you are a US college basketball player caught red-handed shop-lifing big-ticket items in multiple Chinese stores (the low-lifes should have been left there to rot, for at least a year).

But, absent a crime, and with the funds to pay the ticket at the ready by the detainee, it does not serve any purpose to drag this out.  I agree, the OP could at least get some basic info by calling on behalf of his friend.

[badischer Barde]

This discussion is moving into the wrong direction.

 

Many Countries will not let you enter if you illegally overstayed even once. Try that in China for example. That is completely within the Ukraines rights. However it sounds fishy that the Ukraine alledgedly paid for the trip back...

 

And Thailand is also free to deny entry on that accord.

 

The only question worth debating is why the hell he needs to fly back via Ukraine rather than taking the next flight he can get. We already have established the Ukraine doesn't want him and he needs to go to the US anyway.

 

[SicTransit]

Looking on the Ukrainian Airlines webpage (assuming this is the airline per the OP) their schedules are showing flights from Bangkok to New York, via Kiev, on every day, except Monday. So the 'only happen on Monday' comment does not match with the airline timetable info.
https://www.flyuia.com/ua/en/information/time-flight/timetable
 

Those must be code-shared flights because another section of the website shows they only fly Bangkok to Kiev on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sun, which is in line with the story if one assumes that Sunday flight is packed.

[Nong Khai Man]

 

So I'm intrigued as to what was so compelling regarding his visit as a tourist that he used up 90 days plus an extra one......

He Might have found a Very, Very Fit Young Lady to take care of Him.......

[Russell17au]

1 hour ago, badischer Barde said:

This discussion is moving into the wrong direction.

 

Many Countries will not let you enter if you illegally overstayed even once. Try that in China for example. That is completely within the Ukraines rights. However it sounds fishy that the Ukraine alledgedly paid for the trip back...

 

And Thailand is also free to deny entry on that accord.

 

The only question worth debating is why the hell he needs to fly back via Ukraine rather than taking the next flight he can get. We already have established the Ukraine doesn't want him and he needs to go to the US anyway.

 

With the refusal of entry into Ukraine the airline that took him there is responsible for his transport out and it is the same in Thailand, so Ukraine Air is the airline that is responsible for his transport out of Thailand.

Like you said there is something fishy about the Ukraine authorities paying for his flight out.

There have been a couple of threads lately that have been posted by friends of the person involved with much of the facts missing

[Rhys]

...time is almost up... grin and  do the best..

 

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, 007 RED said:

I agree that it does seem very strange that someone is refused entry (not deported as he never entered the country) for overstaying by just one day. 

The second you cross a country's border you have entered that country. You don't get formal permission to enter/stay until granted by an immigration officer. You seem to be confusing the two. If you are denied entry and forced to leave the country you are being 'deported'.

 

3 hours ago, 007 RED said:

It is also puzzling as to why Thai immigration should be detaining him.  I was under the impression that US citizen qualify for visa exempt.

Qualifying for visa exemption doesn't give a right of entry. You can still be denied entry, and being deported/refused entry to the Ukraine is a reason to be denied.

[badischer Barde]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

With the refusal of entry into Ukraine the airline that took him there is responsible for his transport out and it is the same in Thailand, so Ukraine Air is the airline that is responsible for his transport out of Thailand.

then maybe it's a good thing he didn't choose a small airline that just flies between those two countries, or he would be in eternal limbo...

 

But seriously...as far as I understand the airlines are *financial* responsible to transport people back that they brought without valid entry papers. So it was probably the airline that booked him on an earlier flight to Thailand for free, not customs office. Because they failed to checkhis documents.

 

But if he has the will and means to leave the country on his own there is no need for the airline to fill that responsibility. They will just be held liable when he stays/cant pay for his deportation.

[Senechal]

5 hours ago, eisfeld said:

There's probably more to the story than the OP knows or states. A one day overstay shouldn't result in deportation from Ukraine and a US citizen splitting his holiday between Thailand and Ukraine isn't really common either. Also getting jailed for a couple days because entry was refused sounds a bit unusual. They would just force him to fly home (or somewhere else if he's lucky). The immigration officer also wouldn't really know that he was refused entry to Ukraine unless he told them so. They could only raise suspicion because there were no entry/exit stamps from Ukraine and that he came back so quickly (who does visa runs to Ukraine?) but it's not like Ukraine sends Thailand "headsup, a deportee coming through!". Maybe he lied to the officer or tried to pull some other stunt. Also why would Ukraine pay for his return flight?

 

I never said a one day overstay results in a deportation from Ukraine.

 

But an overstay stamp in your passport WILL allow Ukraine to deny you access if you try to come back a few weeks later. And apparently it does. In conversations with the US embassy today they said it's entirely discretionary at Ukranian customs.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Senechal

[Senechal]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

But we live in the real World where U.S citizens have to comply with rules, maybe thats where the problem lies, some U.S citizens think that they dont have to comply with any rules

And some forum posters need to read up on the "just world" fallacy.. and apparently wear their anti-US bias on their sleeves. 

 

He has broken zero laws in Thailand.  There's no reason to assume he wasn't complying with rules here.

 

Yes, he attempted to fly to Ukraine -- not understanding that his prior overstay created a minimum time threshold away from the country. 

 

The issue here seems to have been a language/communication issue on that end. But it certainly wasn't written anywhere that he can see.

 

The larger issue it seems is that his airline should never have returned him to Thailand. They should have sent him immediately to the US.  Sending him to Thailand with "deportee" status seriously screwed him over. 

 

Of course, they did give him the option of returning to the US... but he had no idea what he was actually choosing between.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Senechal

[JohnThailandJohn]

1. He is not allowed to enter Thailand given his refusal to enter Ukraine.

 

2. Airlines are responsible for returning passengers when they are not allowed to enter a country. (this is why they make sure you have passport, return ticket....)

3. There is a process which takes place that likely includes immigration officers escorting him to the plane and handing his passport to the Airplane's staff to ensure he doesn't try to go somewhere else.

 

It is unfair to request another airline to be responsible for him returning home. It is almost a punitive punishment against the airline who brought him to a country he is not allowed to enter by forcing them to correct the situation at their cost.

 

IMO, Ukraine should have given him the option to fly to the US, since he is a US Citizen and should have known he would be refused entry to Thailand. 

[JohnThailandJohn]

A US Citizen can travel to Ukraine for 90-days without a tourist visa. If you plan to stay longer than 90-days within a 180-Day period you must have a visa. 

 

Because he previous had a visa before, it sounds like he stayed longer than 90-days. Or if he didn't have a visa then he stayed there longer than 90 days (91).

Returning so soon it sounds like he would have also needed a visa since a 90-day entry would have put him over the 90 Days within 180 days. In other words, it may not have been or only been due to the 1-day overstay.

[Air Smiles]

4 hours ago, Senechal said:

He has broken zero laws in Thailand.  There's no reason to assume he wasn't complying with rules here.

 

 

Well, as it was pointed out to you in post #2 he has broken the rules under the Thai Immigration Act, from what you've said so far Thailand has done nothing wrong.

 

Your friend on the other hand has tried to enter 2 countries without the proper paperwork.  He is not coming from another country into Thailand as technically he was never allowed into the other country so he is in a kind of limbo of his own making.

 

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

He can lawfully be denied entry to Thailand because of his problems in the Ukraine.

 

Immigration Act

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the Kingdom :

11. Being deported by either the Government of Thailand that of or other foreign countries ; or

the right of stay in the Kingdom or in foreign countries having been revoked ; or having been sent out of the Kingdom by competent officials at the expense of the Government of Thailand unless the Minister shall consider exemption on an individual special case basis.

 

 

[BritTim]

A few important clarifications, and then a comment ...

1. He was denied entry into Ukraine. This is treated very differently from deportation which is something else.
2. A denied entry makes the airline responsible for removing him from the country. The airline must do this at their own expense, but can often recover the cost from the traveler based on their terms and conditions. The default approach is to return the traveler to his last point of embarkation, but the airline can offer the traveler mutually acceptable alternatives.
3. On arrival back in Bangkok, entry into Thailand is not denied automatically based on the denied entry into Ukraine. For instance, if there was only four months validity left on his passport, Ukraine would deny him entry, but there would be no good reason for Thailand to do so. Since he will be arriving back visa exempt, Thai immigration has a lot of discretion about whether or not to admit him. It would not make sense to deny him entry because of the 90 days in 180 Ukraine immigration law, but a harsh official might regard the Ukraine overstay as sufficient. It would be very interesting to know exactly what the Ukraine immigration stamped in his passport.
4. When denied entry to Thailand, the traveler is still the airline's responsibility. He ought to be able to ask the airline (not immigration) to be allowed to buy a ticket elsewhere, signing a document absolving the airline of further responsibility. This would depend on the airline from which he was buying the ticket being willing to carry him. In the case of deportation, the airline must be formally told of the passenger's status, and airlines are typically very reluctant to carry someone under those circumstances. A denied entry passenger is a different case, but the airline would still probably figure out what was going on, and have the right to refuse carriage.

His treatment by Thai immigration seems very harsh, but we do not know the full story. The Ukraine immigration stamps in his passport may have looked pretty scary. The US consular officials have no influence over Thai immigration denied entry decisions. A representative of his airline should have spoken to him, and outlined all his options. Thai immigration have washed their hands of him.

[Air Smiles]

24 minutes ago, BritTim said:

On arrival back in Bangkok, entry into Thailand is not denied automatically based on the denied entry into Ukraine. For instance, if there was only four months validity left on his passport, Ukraine would deny him entry, but there would be no good reason for Thailand to do so. Since he will be arriving back visa exempt,

He is not arriving back from anywhere as technically he never entered Ukraine, he wouldn't have a normal exit stamp from the departure country, so why would Thailand ignore this and issue him with a tourist visa?

 

 

[sanemax]

5 hours ago, Senechal said:

And some forum posters need to read up on the "just world" fallacy.. and apparently wear their anti-US bias on their sleeves. 

 

He has broken zero laws in Thailand.  There's no reason to assume he wasn't complying with rules here.

Do stop the "anti USA bias" allegations, or do you believe that Americans dont have to follow any rules and that Americans should receive special preferential treatment and anyone who thinks that Americans should be treated like every other Countries citizens are biased against the USA ?

   He arrived back in Thailand without visiting another Country and he arrived in Thailand as a deportee, two reasons for Thailand to deny him entry

[BritTim]

1 minute ago, Air Smiles said:

He is not arriving back from anywhere as technically he never entered Ukraine, he wouldn't have a normal exit stamp from the departure country, so why would Thailand ignore this and issue him with a tourist visa?

He left Thailand. The flight passenger list confirms that he did so, and there is no way of getting from departures to arrivals without taking a flight unless you have special ID. Ukraine immigration will have stamped his passport to indicate he was denied entry. He then was flown back to Thailand. Again, the flight passenger list will have confirmed this. It is true that he never entered Ukraine, but this does not mean he did not leave Thailand. Thai immigration cannot give him a tourist visa (only a consulate can do that) but they have the option of giving him a visa exempt entry.

[Air Smiles]

3 minutes ago, BritTim said:

He left Thailand. The flight passenger list confirms that he did so, and there is no way of getting from departures to arrivals without taking a flight unless you have special ID. Ukraine immigration will have stamped his passport to indicate he was denied entry. He then was flown back to Thailand. Again, the flight passenger list will have confirmed this. It is true that he never entered Ukraine, but this does not mean he did not leave Thailand. Thai immigration cannot give him a tourist visa (only a consulate can do that) but they have the option of giving him a visa exempt entry.

 

No one is saying he didn't leave Thailand but he didn't enter any other country before returning to Thailand which means no departure stamp which is highly irregular and means hes trying to enter Thailand without having the correct paperwork thus breaking thai immigration rules.

 

He is not entering Thailand as a tourist so why should he be issued a tourist visa?

 

 

[BritTim]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

he arrived in Thailand as a deportee

I agree with most of your post, but this is incorrect, and the distinction is important. Denied entry (often termed inadmissible person) and deportation are completely different. A complete explanation of the differences is impracticable in a forum post. IATA has written a number of guides for airlines that clearly explain the implications of the two categories.

[Maestro]

Removed off-topic posts about travel to Laos and Hong Kong and the replies to them.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Air Smiles said:

 

No one is saying he didn't leave Thailand but he didn't enter any other country before returning to Thailand which means no departure stamp which is highly irregular and means hes trying to enter Thailand without having the correct paperwork thus breaking thai immigration rules.

 

He is not entering Thailand as a tourist so why should he be issued a tourist visa?

The required paperwork for entering Thailand by air does not include ant entry or departure stamps from Ukraine or anywhere else. He chose to return to Thailand rather than going to the US (he was given the option). I think this is a good indication that we wished to enter Thailand as a tourist. I assume you believe that his failure to be a tourist in Ukraine disqualifies him from being a tourist anywhere else, but I do not follow the logic.