How long does it take to renew a retirement visa at immigration in Bangkok?

[lopburi3]

18 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

Good point. I've never tried getting a re-entry permit at the same time. Last time I renewed though, I'm sure there would have been time in the afternoon to get a re-entry as well - they don't take long, right? (as I recall).

 

The problem with staying all afternoon at CW though is that you then have to get out during the rush hour, which is a bit of a mare.

And if using taxi service there is none available at door late in day and it is a long walk to main road if you are not aware of public transport.  

[Grumpy Duck]

This question may be a bit off topic, but how long is a multiple entry permit valid for? Until the retirement visa expires or for a year?

[lopburi3]

Just now, Grumpy Duck said:

This question may be a bit off topic, but how long is a multiple entry permit valid for? Until the retirement visa expires or for a year?

For the period of current permitted to stay stamp.

[Suradit69]

23 hours ago, wealthychef said:

I am renewing my visa, as well as applying for an extension of stay.  I'm actually doing both because yes I have plans to leave the country.  

You may be applying for an extension of stay and maybe a new re-entry permit, but you are not renewing a visa at immigrations. Visas are never renewed. A new visa would only be obtained by visiting a Thai embassy or consulate outside Thailand.

 

A valid visa or valid re-entry permit allows you to ENTER Thailand.

 

STAYING IN Thailand requires a permission to stay or an extension of that permission to stay given to you by immigrations when your first enter the country or by visiting immigrations to get your existing permission extended.

[wealthychef]

2 hours ago, Koratjohn77 said:

Actually the best visa service in Bangkok is TSL.  Just email David Lam at [email protected] they do everything for you but you will have to go with them to immigration.  Other than that they do it all for you and normally they have your visa ready in a few days.  Actually this year they told me it would be a week but I still got mine done in 2 days for an extra 4,000 baht.  They're a little pricy but they're really good and they don't just hold your hand they literally do it all for you.  All you have to do is go with them to immigration but you'll be ushered in front of the line and you'll be in and out in 5 minutes.  I've been using them for 4 years and I've never had a problem.  If you're in Bangkok it'll actually be easier for you.  

 

 

I had a different experience.  After contacting them and asking them specifically what service they provide, I was told basically that what they do is fill in the required forms and take me to ChiangWattana where I wait around just like normal.  I don't feel like they are worth paying for.  Thanks for the lead though.  What I would like is what someone else mentioned here, a full time agent that will wait in line for me, fill in the forms, do everything possible to minimize my own effort in the process.  Most services look like businesses just profiting off of the massive confusion this process causes for many expats here.  You can blame people for not paying attention, but I have spent many hours on this now.  I think I might just go put up a web page explaining the process in clear detail to save people hassle and expense.  

[Koratjohn77]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

I had a different experience.  After contacting them and asking them specifically what service they provide, I was told basically that what they do is fill in the required forms and take me to ChiangWattana where I wait around just like normal.  I don't feel like they are worth paying for.  Thanks for the lead though.  What I would like is what someone else mentioned here, a full time agent that will wait in line for me, fill in the forms, do everything possible to minimize my own effort in the process.  Most services look like businesses just profiting off of the massive confusion this process causes for many expats here.  You can blame people for not paying attention, but I have spent many hours on this now.  I think I might just go put up a web page explaining the process in clear detail to save people hassle and expense.  

That doesn't sound like TSL at all they always walk me through the whole process.  I spend less than 5 minutes at immigration and they do it all for me and I have my passport back in only a few days.  Maybe it's different if you're on a retirement visa.  I'm on a marriage visa but I am in fact retired I'm just a few years to young for a retirement visa.  That doesn't sound like the service I get from them at all they're really great when I use them.  Did you actually contact TSL?  That really doesn't sound right at all.  If that was the case I would be doing it myself.   

[Koratjohn77]

8 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

I had a different experience.  After contacting them and asking them specifically what service they provide, I was told basically that what they do is fill in the required forms and take me to ChiangWattana where I wait around just like normal.  I don't feel like they are worth paying for.  Thanks for the lead though.  What I would like is what someone else mentioned here, a full time agent that will wait in line for me, fill in the forms, do everything possible to minimize my own effort in the process.  Most services look like businesses just profiting off of the massive confusion this process causes for many expats here.  You can blame people for not paying attention, but I have spent many hours on this now.  I think I might just go put up a web page explaining the process in clear detail to save people hassle and expense.  

I don't know who you spoke with but TSL does everything you said and more at least they always have for me anyway over the past 4 years.  My first year here they even got our Thai marriage certificate for us.  I didn't wait at all I only spent 5 minutes at immigration and it's been like that every year.  Talk to David or Korn.  

[buick]

46 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

And if using taxi service there is none available at door late in day and it is a long walk to main road if you are not aware of public transport. 

this is the problem i encountered when i arrived right after the lunch hour to extend a tourist visa (at CW bangkok).  i had to wait several hours and then it took 30 minutes to get a taxi (about 4:30pm).  and there wasn't much of a line for taxis.  only about 4 or 5 taxis showed up btwn 4:30 and 5:00pm.  maybe i was there on a bad day.  but i never (and will never) try for the afternoon option again if relying on taxis as transport.

 

i normally show up at 9:15am to avoid standing in the line (which i've done but didn't enjoy much) and don't encounter much traffic on the taxi ride from mochit BTS.  i've used the extension of stay desk (retirement/marriage) twice.  first time i got a number in the 70's.  didn't get served before lunch and was done about 2:30pm.  second time i got a number in the 50's and just got it done before lunch.  i don't even try to get the reentry permit same day. i'd rather go back another day.

 

the few times i arrived around 8am, i was done so quick (by 10am) that i got caught in traffic trying to get back to the mochit BTS.  so i got out of CW quick but got to 'wait' in the taxi instead.  i'd prefer to wait at CW and have no traffic issues (never a guaranty).

 

edit: just to clarify, i've only been to extension of stay desk twice but i've been to CW at least 3 times a year since it opened.  in the past it was for extension to visa exempt or tourist visas and reentry permits.

Edited February 8, 2018 by buick

[wealthychef]

Just now, Koratjohn77 said:

That doesn't sound like TSL at all they always walk me through the whole process.  I spend less than 5 minutes at immigration and they do it all for me and I have my passport back in only a few days.  Maybe it's different if you're on a retirement visa.  I'm on a marriage visa but I am in fact retired I'm just a few years to young for a retirement visa.  That doesn't sound like the service I get from them at all they're really great when I use them.  Did you actually contact TSL?  That really doesn't sound right at all.  If that was the case I would be doing it myself.   

Interesting.  I chatted with an agent on their web page.  Here is how it went.  Judge for yourself.  Perhaps the agent just didn't like me.  One thing is they claimed it would take me 3 days, very cagy and vague about how they would actually help me.  So I gave up, perhaps too easily.  

 

Quote

wealthychef  Howdy, just wondering if you can help me save time and effort in applying for extension of stay and multiple re-entry permit for Thailand. I'm a US citizen.

Bryan Baker  Sure. When does your visa expire?

wealthychef I have a non-O retirement visa, expiring end of Feb (Feb 27 I think)

Bryan Baker  Ok. Just in time then.

Are you in Bangkok?

wealthychef yes

I know, I was doing it myself. But then found out about you and wondering if spending a few baht for a little service might be a good idea.

Bryan Baker  Ok. Would you like to drop off your passport at our office or just send it in?

wealthychef I have an appt with US embassy to get income statement.

Bryan Baker  Saves you the hassles that’s for sure. Smart man.

wealthychef Hmm... need to talk about how this works first. What is your service about and what does it give me? Thanks

Bryan Baker  Ok.

wealthychef Yeah, I just don't want to spend the day at Chiang Wattana

Bryan Baker  Actually it would be more like 3 but anyways.

wealthychef Can you tell me the procedure if I use you? I think I know how it works if I do it myself. When I renewed last year it took a whole day.

Bryan Baker  Just stop by the office before you go into the embassy and we will prepare the affidavit for you and also take you to extend your visa and multiple re-entry.

Take all the necessary pictures fill out all of the forms etc.

wealthychef I think in this case what most interests me is time savings. How much time will I spend at CW? Do you get faster service somehow?

I do believe the forms are not a big deal for me. I have them on my hard drive ready to go

TM7

Bryan Baker  Maybe an hour or two? I am not sure it depends on the day. Also everywhere is busier right now.

The taxi could take an hour it’s hard to say for sure.

wealthychef I can ride my motorbike there, it's faster by far.

Bryan Baker  You will save time that is for sure.

wealthychef Can you tell me how I save time with your service? I don't quite understand that part. Do you go to the front of the line somehow? :-)

Bryan Baker  Ok well I mean you do seem like you want to do it yourself... I am not saying you can’t. I am just saying this is the service we offer.

Haha your funny. Anything else I can help you with today?

 

[Wake Up]

On 2/7/2018 at 2:06 PM, asiaexpat said:

To answer your question about "how long does it take", that depends on the day and time you go to CW. Two weeks ago I went on a Tuesday and arrived at 9AM. I finally got to see the first officer at 1:30 PM. Finished process at 2:30 PM. Never know how long until you get there.

On October 31 I got there at 930 am and got my extension of stay at 230 pm and my reentry permit at 430 pm. The guy sitting  next to me was in line outside he said at 6:10 am and he was only 10 que numbers ahead of me. He was able to see an officer before lunch break but did not get his extension until after the lunch break about one hour before me. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Wake Up

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

Interesting.  I chatted with an agent on their web page.  Here is how it went.  Judge for yourself.  Perhaps the agent just didn't like me.  One thing is they claimed it would take me 3 days, very cagy and vague about how they would actually help me.  So I gave up, perhaps too easily.  

 

 

 

It seems the person you chatted with doesn't know the difference between a visa and extension of permission to stay! 

 

[partington]

22 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

I had a different experience.  After contacting them and asking them specifically what service they provide, I was told basically that what they do is fill in the required forms and take me to ChiangWattana where I wait around just like normal.  I don't feel like they are worth paying for.  Thanks for the lead though.  What I would like is what someone else mentioned here, a full time agent that will wait in line for me, fill in the forms, do everything possible to minimize my own effort in the process.  Most services look like businesses just profiting off of the massive confusion this process causes for many expats here.  You can blame people for not paying attention, but I have spent many hours on this now.  I think I might just go put up a web page explaining the process in clear detail to save people hassle and expense.  

I agree about a webpage being useful, and a guy called WP Coe did this a few years ago, explaining the entire procedure, and it was invaluable as an entry point.

 

I do feel that, unless you are really busy working and can't spend half a day at Chaengwattana, you are exaggerating the effort and complication.

 

The forms you fill in is basically a one a half side sheet, that only requires filling in your name, address and a few visa details, and sticking a photo on: something that would take most people about 15 minutes maximum. You also have to make a few photocopies.  The immigration waiting is not that onerous and took me under three hours last week.

 

This is really trivially easy.

 

There is also a bus #166 that goes from Victory monument on the expressway literally to the door of the immigration building for 18B, and back, that stops at only three places and is therefore practically as fast as a taxi.

Edited February 8, 2018 by partington

[Koratjohn77]

8 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

I don't know who you spoke with but TSL does everything you said and more at least they always have for me anyway over the past 4 years.  My first year here they even got our Thai marriage certificate for us.  I didn't wait at all I only spent 5 minutes at immigration and it's been like that every year.  Talk to David or Korn.  

Wait you're using the Chaengwattana immigration office no wonder that's not the right office they only handle Bangkok immigration downtown only.  You can still use TSL at Bangkok immigration I live in Korat and I do it and Korat immigration is okay with it.  I do my 90 day report in Korat with no issues and I get my extensions in Bangkok through TSL.  I got asked about that once at Korat immigration but it wasn't a problem I just called my agent and had him talk to them about it.  The TSL agents are only going to do it all for you only if you're actually using the immigration office in downtown Bangkok only.  I'm sorry I forgot to tell you that part, it has to be at the main immigration office only for them to walk you through the process.  They won't go outside of Bangkok downtown but they're totally worth it if you're using them in downtown Bangkok at the main immigration office.  I just read your location I thought you were in downtown Bangkok.  Just do it downtown at the main immigration office it'll be fine I live in Korat and I've been doing it for 4 years.  

[wealthychef]

Just now, partington said:

I agree about a webpage being useful, and a guy called WP Coe did this a few years ago, explaining the entire procedure, and it was invaluable as an entry point.

 

I do feel that, unless you are really busy working and can't spend half a day at Chaengwattana, you are exaggerating the effort and complication.

 

The forms you fill in is basically a one a half side sheet, that only requires filling in your name, address and a few visa details, and sticking a photo on: something that would take most people about 15 minutes maximum. You also have to make a few photocopies.  The immigration waiting is not that onerous and took me under three hours last week.

 

This is really trivially easy.

 

Sorry, but "trivially easy" is eating lunch, or tying your shoelaces, or maybe going into the office without knowing a thing, filling out a form, waiting 5 minutes for it to be processed, and walking out.  Or even more trivial, doing it all online.  You make it sound like filling in the form is the only thing you have to do.  I feel like you are exaggerating the simplicity and ease of this process.  

 

Let's be real.  To get this done, I have to spend a full day (not half) on an extension and a re-entry permit, including waiting on hard plastic chairs in utter boredom for my number and fighting the usual horrible traffic.  In addition I have spent hours wading through definitions and discussing the fine points of immigration with various people, some of whom know what they are talking about, some who don't.  

 

As for complication, it's only "not complicated" once you know the answer.  If you don't know, you have to find out, or find a knowledgable friend or agent to help you.  But if you do it yourself, it's a waste of one whole day per year, not including the research.  I don't even want to do it myself and I haven't found an agent that can reduce my time to less than 4 hours.  Is that really trivial?  

 

Furthermore, as you point out, this reliably confuses countless people each year, which is something that trivially easy things don't do.  They don't require a website to explain.  

 

Thanks so much for all the help though, I must stress it's been useful.  

 

[Koratjohn77]

22 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

Interesting.  I chatted with an agent on their web page.  Here is how it went.  Judge for yourself.  Perhaps the agent just didn't like me.  One thing is they claimed it would take me 3 days, very cagy and vague about how they would actually help me.  So I gave up, perhaps too easily.  

 

 

Yeah that doesn't sound like the same TSL.  Are you actually in downtown Bangkok actually using the main Bangkok immigration office?  They only communicate via email or phone.  

 

I just posted this below when I read your exact location:

 

Wait you're using the Chaengwattana immigration office no wonder that's not the right office they only handle Bangkok immigration downtown only.  You can still use TSL at Bangkok immigration I live in Korat and I do it and Korat immigration is okay with it.  I do my 90 day report in Korat with no issues and I get my extensions in Bangkok through TSL.  I got asked about that once at Korat immigration but it wasn't a problem I just called my agent and had him talk to them about it.  The TSL agents are only going to do it all for you only if you're actually using the immigration office in downtown Bangkok only.  I'm sorry I forgot to tell you that part, it has to be at the main immigration office only for them to walk you through the process.  They won't go outside of Bangkok downtown but they're totally worth it if you're using them in downtown Bangkok at the main immigration office.  I just read your location I thought you were in downtown Bangkok.  Just do it downtown at the main immigration office it'll be fine I live in Korat and I've been doing it for 4 years.  

[wealthychef]

25 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

I don't know who you spoke with but TSL does everything you said and more at least they always have for me anyway over the past 4 years.  My first year here they even got our Thai marriage certificate for us.  I didn't wait at all I only spent 5 minutes at immigration and it's been like that every year.  Talk to David or Korn.  

I posted the entire conversation with Bryan Baker in post #71 above.  Here's a link.  

 

 

[SpokaneAl]

Wait you're using the Chaengwattana immigration office no wonder that's not the right office they only handle Bangkok immigration downtown only.  You can still use TSL at Bangkok immigration I live in Korat and I do it and Korat immigration is okay with it.  I do my 90 day report in Korat with no issues and I get my extensions in Bangkok through TSL.  I got asked about that once at Korat immigration but it wasn't a problem I just called my agent and had him talk to them about it.  The TSL agents are only going to do it all for you only if you're actually using the immigration office in downtown Bangkok only.  I'm sorry I forgot to tell you that part, it has to be at the main immigration office only for them to walk you through the process.  They won't go outside of Bangkok downtown but they're totally worth it if you're using them in downtown Bangkok at the main immigration office.  I just read your location I thought you were in downtown Bangkok.  Just do it downtown at the main immigration office it'll be fine I live in Korat and I've been doing it for 4 years.  

I also live in a Korat and by most accounts the Korat immigration office is one of the more customer service oriented, least busy immigration offices in Thailand. I suspect that you are not saving nearly the amount of time that you think you are.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wealthychef]

1 minute ago, Koratjohn77 said:

Yeah that doesn't sound like the same TSL.  Are you actually in downtown Bangkok actually using the main Bangkok immigration office?  They only communicate via email or phone.  

 

I just posted this below when I read your exact location:

 

Wait you're using the Chaengwattana immigration office no wonder that's not the right office they only handle Bangkok immigration downtown only.  You can still use TSL at Bangkok immigration I live in Korat and I do it and Korat immigration is okay with it.  I do my 90 day report in Korat with no issues and I get my extensions in Bangkok through TSL.  I got asked about that once at Korat immigration but it wasn't a problem I just called my agent and had him talk to them about it.  The TSL agents are only going to do it all for you only if you're actually using the immigration office in downtown Bangkok only.  I'm sorry I forgot to tell you that part, it has to be at the main immigration office only for them to walk you through the process.  They won't go outside of Bangkok downtown but they're totally worth it if you're using them in downtown Bangkok at the main immigration office.  I just read your location I thought you were in downtown Bangkok.  Just do it downtown at the main immigration office it'll be fine I live in Korat and I've been doing it for 4 years.  

 

Hmm, I don't understand "main immigration office."  The only office in Bangkok that handles these matters is Chaengwattana that I know of.  The service I contacted was called TSL and I found it by googling "TSL visa".  http://tslthailand.com  

I'm not sure how to contact the one you use, can you give me a pointer?  Thanks.  

[Mattd]

3 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

Wait you're using the Chaengwattana immigration office no wonder that's not the right office they only handle Bangkok immigration downtown only.  You can still use TSL at Bangkok immigration

There is no downtown immigration office in Bangkok, this closed years ago, everybody in the Bangkok catchment area must go to Chaengwattana immigration office.

[Koratjohn77]

2 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

I posted the entire conversation with Bryan Baker in post #71 above.  Here's a link.  

 

 

Yeah I read that and that's not them.  What was the name of the person you spoke with.  I'm pretty sure you're not talking to TSL at least not the people who I deal with anyway try calling 089-819-9930 and they're a lot more helpful in person than what they sound on the phone trust me they're awesome.  Keep in mind that they only deal with the main immigration office in downtown Bangkok as far as I know anyway.  If they do deal with any other immigration offices I'm not aware of it but it's possible maybe they do.  I'm pretty sure they only deal with the main immigration office in downtown Bangkok only.  That maybe why you're having an issue but I don't know.  I know that every time I've dealt with them it's been absolutely wonderful I didn't have to do anything except show up for a few minutes one day.  

[Koratjohn77]

9 minutes ago, SpokaneAl said:

 

I also live in a Korat and by most accounts the Korat immigration office is one of the more customer service oriented, least busy immigration offices in Thailand. I suspect that you are not saving nearly the amount of time that you think you are.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Yes I agree Korat immigration is awesome but I am saving a month because it normally takes 30 days to complete the marriage visa extension process.  When I use the agent in Bangkok I get it done in only 2 days.  I'm on a marriage visa not a retirement visa.  Although when I turn 50 I'm going to switch to a retirement visa because I am in fact retired and then I'll probably just do it myself when I'm 50.  I just learned that you can get a retirement visa extension done in only one day so I'm switching from a marriage visa to a retirement visa in 5 years as soon as I can.  

 

If I was on a retirement visa now then you would be right I would actually be waisting time and money.  On a marriage visa I'm saving myself 30 days so it's worth it.  

[wealthychef]

Quote

   16 minutes ago,  wealthychef said: 

I posted the entire conversation with Bryan Baker in post #71 above.

6 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

What was the name of the person you spoke with. 

 LOL really?  

 

Quote

Keep in mind that they only deal with the main immigration office in downtown Bangkok as far as I know anyway. 

 

The main immigration office is in Chaengwattana.  Where is the "main immigration office in downtown Bangkok" that you are talking about?  

[Koratjohn77]

19 minutes ago, wealthychef said:

 

Hmm, I don't understand "main immigration office."  The only office in Bangkok that handles these matters is Chaengwattana that I know of.  The service I contacted was called TSL and I found it by googling "TSL visa".  http://tslthailand.com  

I'm not sure how to contact the one you use, can you give me a pointer?  Thanks.  

Just call 089-819-9930

[Koratjohn77]

21 minutes ago, Mattd said:

There is no downtown immigration office in Bangkok, this closed years ago, everybody in the Bangkok catchment area must go to Chaengwattana immigration office.

I don't know I googled that city and it says that it's way north of Bangkok maybe I'm googling the wrong place.  I don't know the name of the immigration office in Bangkok I just like show up for about 5 minutes a year.  

[wealthychef]

3 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

Just call 089-819-9930

 

They don't answer their phone.   :-(  

[CharlesSwann]

1 hour ago, lopburi3 said:

And if using taxi service there is none available at door late in day and it is a long walk to main road if you are not aware of public transport.  

Call me masochist but I always walk down to Chaeng Wattana from the main road and always enjoy it. Twelve minutes of calm before the storm. For me, stress=people. Burn a few calories to boot.

[wealthychef]

Just now, Koratjohn77 said:

I don't know I googled that city and it says that it's way north of Bangkok maybe I'm googling the wrong place.  I don't know the name of the immigration office in Bangkok I just like show up for about 5 minutes a year.  

 

LOL The name of the immigration office in Bangkok is "The Immigration Office in Bangkok."   It's not in downtown Bangkok.  It's in Chaengwattana.  How is it that you show up at the office if you don't know where it is?  

You are saying it takes 5 minutes now, but you also said it takes 2 days.  

I'm noticing that you don't have a retirement visa and you live in Korat, which I guess is in Isaan, right?  I tried calling that number and nobody answers.  You have also said they are "more helpful than they sound on the phone," so I am wondering if they are going to be awful on the phone anyhow.  

I'll give them another call but in the end I have a dark heavy feeling it's going to be another all-day trip to Chaengwattana in the end.  This is such a tiresome process at times... 

Thanks for the help though!  

 

[wealthychef]

18 minutes ago, Koratjohn77 said:

 

If I was on a retirement visa now then you would be right I would actually be waisting time and money.  On a marriage visa I'm saving myself 30 days so it's worth it.  

 

Woa  what?  You do realize I've been asking about a retirement visa right?  Ugh. 

[Koratjohn77]

Just now, wealthychef said:

 

They don't answer their phone.   :-(  

That's the cell phone number for the guy who actually does the work he's probably busy call him back later or Google them and call the number on Google.  They are located in the Sindhorn building across the street from the U.S. Embassy by the Starbucks.  I don't know how much better I can tell you I don't have the boss's phone number in my contacts.  The guy who runs the place is David Lam you should talk to him.  They have another office in Bangkok that I've never been to before their number is 02-168-7734.  They will definitely answer if you call that number I just tried it.  Last time I was in their office it was in the Sindhorn building by the embassy unless they have moved.  I do know that they have 2 offices.  These guys are the best.   

[KMartinHandyman]

 

What visa service is going to admit in an unsolicited chat if their agents get/pay for some preferential treatment at immigration like going to the front of the line somehow? I’m shocked the smiley face didn’t persuade them to spill all of their secrets.
I’ve overpaid them as I like to say versus the diy route for everything I’ve done in this country and have never been disappointed,delayed or stressed with their performance when I’ve done business or made plans to do business with them while in Thailand or while in the USA. Priceless as I don’t deal with shapeshifting bureaucracy well and have no interest in playing diy immigration roulette involving stamps,forms,banks and photocopies.
To each his own.
TSL has done,
Marriage,1 day.
Translations, accepted by requesting parties.
Conversion to retirement, extensions with multiple entries.
My wife’s 2 year green card for the USA to name a few.
I’ve always been told what documents to bring and when my embassy appointments and immigration trips we’re scheduled by them in advance. We show up, sign a few things, pay, bounce around together with their people jumping through the hoops and get the results I paid for.