'Numerous fatalities' at Florida high school after ex-student opens fire

[jvs]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me this is the classic case of public frenzy over a problem because it is an emotional one. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously- it should, but in 2016 opioids killed over 42 THOUSAND Americans and there isn't anywhere near the debate about that than school shootings which in comparison killed hardly any people.

That isn't saying that school shootings are not horrific, but it's obvious that the US has some deep seated and truly awful problems that are not being dealt with and that comes down to congress not doing it's job. Time for them to get off their idle backsides, stop the partisan rhetoric and start working for their constituents.

Most of those 42 Thousand Americans that died because of drugs have themselves to blame.How many of the victims of shootings have asked to be shot???

[riclag]

40 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

But if the guns were much harder to get then surely you can see that the number of mass shootings and gun crime would naturally decline?

 

Criminals are always going to find a way to commit a crime... so in your view we should just legalise all weapons and let them get on with it?

 

The sad fact seems to be that most Americans love guns more than children.  

 

 

Criminals and sickos are going to find the means to get a gun. Why take the guns out of the hands of the law abiding.All guns aren't legal (AK's)!Banning guns isn't the answer. Enforcing the laws on a federal and state basis is a good start

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, jvs said:

Most of those 42 Thousand Americans that died because of drugs have themselves to blame.How many of the victims of shootings have asked to be shot???

and why were they using drugs in the first place?

[jvs]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and why were they using drugs in the first place?

I have no idea do you?

 

[joebrown]

3 hours ago, irwinfc said:

it's the user, not tool. after stabbing incidents, has anyone called for strict knife control? road carnage, has anyone called to ban automobiles? 

 

assault rifles have been banned in the US for a long time. this cruz character would have found other sinister ways to harm/kill other people. 

Your comparison between assault rifles and automobiles is quite remarkable IMO. It seems you're suggesting automobile fatalities are the result of deliberate actions by drivers, or the multiple killings we see in US schools are accidental. I agree DUI drivers should be dealt with harshly, but to suggest banning automobiles is inane. I can't understand people who can't see that taking guns out of peoples hands, means that those hands can't be used to pull the trigger. Less guns in circulation means less likelihood of mass shootings.eg UK gun laws.

[canuckamuck]

America needs to return to its values, They lost their way in the 60's. Family values America had much better mental health.

In Canada I used to drive to high school in a pickup with rifles and shotguns in the gun rack. Not a single person had any concerns about that. That's because we were all sane.

[Berkshire]

57 minutes ago, riclag said:

Criminals and sickos are going to find the means to get a gun. Why take the guns out of the hands of the law abiding.All guns aren't legal (AK's)!Banning guns isn't the answer. Enforcing the laws on a federal and state basis is a good start

Don't worry, America will not take guns away from law abiding citizens....or anyone else.  "Enforcing the laws," as you say, won't change anything.  Which means there will be more dead Americans from gun violence well past my lifetime.  It will never end.  That's why I'm pretty tired of talking about it (and part of why I am in Thailand).  There is zero political will to stop gun violence in the USA.  Even if Congress manages to pass some "sensible" gun legislation, it will be so watered-down as to make it worthless.  And the pro-gun folks will say "you see, more laws don't work!" 

 

So let the carnage continue.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

America needs to return to its values, They lost their way in the 60's. Family values America had much better mental health.

 

Speaking as an American who was born before and grew up during that time, I don't think it's that simple, nor do I think your suggestion is the answer.

 

There was a past time in the U.S., the 50s and early 60s, when the husband worked and the wife's only job was staying home and taking care of the family. But, that did change in the 60s, as women become more recognized as equals, capable in the workplace and not limited to home life only.

 

At the same time, the economy changed and as years passed it almost became necessary for a family to have two wage earners in order to support the American typical lifestyle that included kids and their future expenses, including increasingly expensive college and university tuition. So I think all of those things contributed to the overall changes.
 

I grew up in a two full-time working parents household. I didn't end up as a gun-toting psycho and neither did anyone I knew. But, my parents didn't die and didn't divorce and didn't leave me to fend for myself, apparently unlike the shooter here. So, I do agree that having a supportive, functioning family -- as opposed to a dysfunctional or absent one -- is generally going to result in more well adjusted young people.

 

That's not a function of finding religion or returning women to mother-only roles or any other right-wing, idealized versions of past America.  What it might be, however, is more expansive sex education and contraception services to help ensure that couples don't have children unless they really intend to and believe they have a family circumstance capable of supporting them.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

 There is zero political will to stop gun violence in the USA.  Even if Congress manages to pass some "sensible" gun legislation, it will be so watered-down as to make it worthless.  And the pro-gun folks will say "you see, more laws don't work!"

 

 

To be fair, it's not just about the Republicans and the NRA, etc etc.  If there weren't a sizable portion of the U.S. citizenry who also share Charles Heston's view that the only way anyone will get their gun from them is by prying it from their cold, dead fingers, then the Republicans and the NRA wouldn't be able to maintain the positions they do.

 

In the end, the American people are to blame for this, or at least, an influential and sizable minority of them.

[Berkshire]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

To be fair, it's not just about the Republicans and the NRA, etc etc.  If there weren't a sizable portion of the U.S. citizenry who also share Charles Heston's view that the only way anyone will get their gun from them is by prying it from their cold, dead fingers, then the Republicans and the NRA wouldn't be able to maintain the positions they do.

 

In the end, the American people are to blame for this, or at least, an influential and sizable minority of them.

I honestly believe that it's a rather small minority who are in the "prying it from their cold, dead fingers" category.  But this small minority is pretty darn passionate, organized, vocal, and well-funded.  Which is how you have political clout in America. 

[Sir Dude]

Again! Another entitled snowflake with a fragile ego who had a hissy-fit because he couldn't deal with the sum of his past actions that resulted in a non-conducive present situation due to him living in La La Land. Enjoy being back-door banged everyday in jail. He didn't even have the sand to top himself. Pfft.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Sir Dude

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I honestly believe that it's a rather small minority who are in the "prying it from their cold, dead fingers" category.  But this small minority is pretty darn passionate, organized, vocal, and well-funded.  Which is how you have political clout in America. 

 

I was over arguing a bit with the Charles Heston quote, but the general point still applies, according to recent public opinion research from the Pew Research Center:

 

Seems to say, about 3-4ths of Republicans do NOT support stricter gun laws. And more than half actually think crime would go down if more Americans had guns.

 

And which party is in control of the Presidency and Congress right now?

 

Quote

 

Gun violence took an especially deadly toll in 2017. In October, a gunman in a Las Vegas hotel room opened fire on an open-air concert below, killing 58 people and injuring nearly 500 in the deadliest mass shooting in the country’s modern history. A month later, a man in rural Texas shot 26 people to death and injured 20 others as they attended a Sunday church service – the worst mass shooting in that state’s history.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/essay/from-maga-to-metoo-a-look-at-u-s-public-opinion-in-2017/

Edited February 15, 2018 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[attrayant]

2 hours ago, riclag said:

AK's are already banned,that didn't stop that nutjob.

 

The fact that mass shooters keep using them as their weapon of choice means that they're not banned, at least not in any meaningful way.  So stop saying AR-15s (which is what I think you mean when you say "AKs") are banned.

 

The assault weapons ban did not apply to those already in circulation and it expired in 2004 anyway.  Presently there are some toothless bans on certain features of assault rifles, which has almost ni effect on mass shootings.

[riclag]

50 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Don't worry, America will not take guns away from law abiding citizens....or anyone else.  "Enforcing the laws," as you say, won't change anything.  Which means there will be more dead Americans from gun violence well past my lifetime.  It will never end.  That's why I'm pretty tired of talking about it (and part of why I am in Thailand).  There is zero political will to stop gun violence in the USA.  Even if Congress manages to pass some "sensible" gun legislation, it will be so watered-down as to make it worthless.  And the pro-gun folks will say "you see, more laws don't work!" 

 

So let the carnage continue.

It's not enacting more laws,its enforcing and tweaking the current. Look at the church shooting recently (the guy was dishonorably discharged from the AF,but yet he  had a rifle  because of a computer glitch ). Las Vegas shooter amassed a arsenal of weapons over the years,where were the red flags?   

[canuckamuck]

51 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Speaking as an American who was born before and grew up during that time, I don't think it's that simple, nor do I think your suggestion is the answer.

 

There was a past time in the U.S., the 50s and early 60s, when the husband worked and the wife's only job was staying home and taking care of the family. But, that did change in the 60s, as women become more recognized as equals, capable in the workplace and not limited to home life only.

 

At the same time, the economy changed and as years passed it almost became necessary for a family to have two wage earners in order to support the American typical lifestyle that included kids and their future expenses, including increasingly expensive college and university tuition. So I think all of those things contributed to the overall changes.
 

I grew up in a two full-time working parents household. I didn't end up as a gun-toting psycho and neither did anyone I knew. But, my parents didn't die and didn't divorce and didn't leave me to fend for myself, apparently unlike the shooter here. So, I do agree that having a supportive, functioning family -- as opposed to a dysfunctional or absent one -- is generally going to result in more well adjusted young people.

 

That's not a function of finding religion or returning women to mother-only roles or any other right-wing, idealized versions of past America.  What it might be, however, is more expansive sex education and contraception services to help ensure that couples don't have children unless they really intend to and believe they have a family circumstance capable of supporting them.

 

 

But its true that people were generally sane and moral and that came from people living in a system where they understood the social contract and they had nuclear families and on top of that neighbors that they knew and trusted. What the progressives succeeded in doing was making all of that seem wrong and backwards. When in fact it was the glue that facilitated the exceptional advancements of the last couple of centuries.

[lovelomsak]

17 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

But its true that people were generally sane and moral and that came from people living in a system where they understood the social contract and they had nuclear families and on top of that neighbors that they knew and trusted. What the progressives succeeded in doing was making all of that seem wrong and backwards. When in fact it was the glue that facilitated the exceptional advancements of the last couple of centuries.

You said it exactly how I feel about it to.  

  But there is a saying that rings so true now adays.

 It is better to popular than it is to be right.

 And popular is what people want.

  You are right but what you said will not make you popular or liked. Except by other Canucks like me.

 

[Skywalker69]

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, riclag said:

We are appalled! What would you suggest we do ,that hasn't been discussed for the last 40 years.Do you think doing away or tinkering with #2 is going to solve the problem?Criminals and sickos are going to find the means to get a gun. AK's are already banned,that didn't stop that nutjob.

 

Try it. Ban all guns. I'll bet you 1000 bucks it will work.

 

"It won't stop sickos and criminals" - what a pathetic crutch! It works everywhere else! Give it a go!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not at all, but armed guards patrolling schools would deter the potential offenders.

 

The number of school shootings this year are 19, and the number of weapons out there are in the multi millions. It takes but one gun to make 20.

Leaving schools undefended is tantamount to welcoming in the shooters.

Pathetic. Sorry but that's the most appropriate word

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems to me this is the classic case of public frenzy over a problem because it is an emotional one. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taken seriously- it should, but in 2016 opioids killed over 42 THOUSAND Americans and there isn't anywhere near the debate about that than school shootings which in comparison killed hardly any people.

That isn't saying that school shootings are not horrific, but it's obvious that the US has some deep seated and truly awful problems that are not being dealt with and that comes down to congress not doing it's job. Time for them to get off their idle backsides, stop the partisan rhetoric and start working for their constituents.

Maybe it would be better to have opioids more easily available than guns?

 

3 hours ago, Berkshire said:

There's always going to be people who are disturbed...or mentally ill...or depressed...or angry....or jealous...or paranoid....or drunk....or on drugs....or just having a bad hair day.  The question is, do we give them easy access to guns?  That's it, and that's all.

Some posting error! Over my head! My postvis in the middle -  appropriate for a centrist!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, riclag said:

Criminals and sickos are going to find the means to get a gun. Why take the guns out of the hands of the law abiding.All guns aren't legal (AK's)!Banning guns isn't the answer. Enforcing the laws on a federal and state basis is a good start

Banning the guns IS the answer; ask any adult

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just by chance today came across this Rolling Stone news article from last month. Timely, considering the news in this thread:

 

Quote

 

The Trump-Russia-NRA Connection: Here’s What You Need to Know

Did the Kremlin funnel payments to help Trump's campaign through the National Rifle Association?

-------------------------------------------------------

Did a shadowy Russian banker close to Vladimir Putin illegally give money to the National Rifle Association to support the presidential campaign of Donald Trump? That's the subject of an active FBI investigation, according to an explosive report by McClatchy.

 

 

 

 

Continued....

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-trump-russia-nra-connection-heres-what-you-need-to-know-w515615

Edited February 15, 2018 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

In Canada I used to drive to high school in a pickup with rifles and shotguns in the gun rack. Not a single person had any concerns about that. That's because we were all sane.

I'm alone in thinking this is an exemplar in insanity????

[lovelomsak]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm alone in thinking this is an exemplar in insanity????

Insanity may be where you grew up. Not where him or I grew up. It was common and no one ever got shot. People lived in communities and were responsible. citizen's.A rifle was for hunting plain and simple. 

  But of course they had stable family life,all worked,paid taxes and took care of their family.

[Stargeezr]

First thing, Get Rid of The 2ND amendment! Oh that will panic too many Americans.

 Two, Replace number 2 that was written so people could save their scalps, with a 21

century law that is suitable for 2018 and beyond.

Three, get rid of the NRA, they are way too powerful, and most educated people know that.

Four vote out all the the dinosaur politicians who are still supporting the NRA.

Maybe then there will be a chance to see change in the USA, but not until that happens.

Geezer

[sirineou]

Same all same all .

Nothing we haven't heard before after all the other tragedies.

 propaganda has become so sophisticated it would make Goebbels look like a first time amature.

It has come to the point where the victims (because we are all victims) carry the water of the perpetrator. 

All we ask are some common sense regulations , and we cant even get that.  SAD

Before you all talk about your Hunting right,  and how you will defend against a tyrannical Government 

 Imagine  the parents whose children will never come home! 

enough said.

Edited February 15, 2018 by sirineou

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

Insanity may be where you grew up. Not where him or I grew up. It was common and no one ever got shot. People lived in communities and were responsible. citizen's.A rifle was for hunting plain and simple. 

  But of course they had stable family life,all worked,paid taxes and took care of their family.

Sure, that's why it was necessary to take rifles and shotguns to school.

[riclag]

 To use a weapon for  hunting and protection against a government  is  important , protecting your family and self from people who have guns illegally that want to hurt you is also another reason to be able to have arms.

[jvs]

23 minutes ago, riclag said:

 To use a weapon for  hunting and protection against a government  is  important , protecting your family and self from people who have guns illegally that want to hurt you is also another reason to be able to have arms.

These are all very old arguments,to convince me you will have to come with something a lot better.

 

[riclag]

Just now, jvs said:

These are all very old arguments,to convince me you will have to come with something a lot better.

 

Yes, The Constitution of the USA makes it legal to bear arms.