Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Rimmer]

Multiple off topic, bickering, troll and baiting posts have been removed, topic is:

 

Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

48 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

It was a simple enough request, what is the Brexit threshold for pain in an economic sense but you can't answer because you don't know and it's too complicated to think about - makes me think of boiling frog syndrome. Never mind.

What future developments would make you regret choosing to stay in the EU?

 

For example, the UK is forced to join the Euro and takes a huge hit as Greece Italy and Portugal's economies go into freefall; an EU army is formed and the UK is ordered to send troops in to fight a war that only 10% of the UK support; as tax harmonisation takes effect the UK is ordered to double income tax to level out the wealth; Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro join the EU and start to push Polish people in the UK out of work by undercutting them; the UK population stands at 85m and people are advised to allow a 1 year lead time for a doctor’s appointment; then Erdogan's Turkey join the EU to the joy of many of their 80m citizens who can't wait to move to London; the EU appoints a President who will have full state presidential powers.

Edited March 29, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[simoh1490]

42 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Hard and honest thinking about stuff that is only going to happen in the minds of ardent remainers.

The question was just a poor attempt at laying out remainer fears in a covert way.  It's not much different to George Osborne's demented rantings about an emergency budget etc.

My question was straight forward and simple enough yet you guys seem to need to make conspiracy plot out of it and label it as an extension of the only sound bite in your vocabulary that is supportable, the very dated project fear. Others label the question as "loaded", you seem as a group to duck every difficult question you're asked by saying it's loaded, any question that requires some thought that is. How are you supposed to set out your arguments, how are you supposed to defend it, if you duck every question related to it!

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

What future developments would make you regret choosing to stay in the EU?

 

For example, the UK is forced to join the Euro and takes a huge hit as Greece Italy and Portugal's economies go into freefall; an EU army is formed and the UK is ordered to send troops in to fight a war that only 10% of the UK support; as tax harmonisation takes effect the Eurozone (inc the UK) is ordered to double income tax; Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro join the EU and start to push Polish people in the UK out of work by undercutting them; the UK population stands at 85m and people are advised to allow a 1 year lead time for a doctor’s appointment; then Erdogan's Turkey join the EU to the joy of many of their 80m citizens who can't wait to move to London; the EU appoints a President who will have full state presidential powers.

I'm not buying your answer of reversing the question, either answer it and be constructive, or don't and prove that you don't know how.

[Grouse]

Substantially higher taxes would be a good thing and will help the UK reach the standards of civil society enjoyed by our Northern European peers. Nobody sensible person wishes to emulate USA norms.

[CG1 Blue]

20 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm not buying your answer of reversing the question, either answer it and be constructive, or don't and prove that you don't know how.

I'm trying to show you what a leading question looks like.  I suspect you would not have answered it even if my question had been posted first.

[talahtnut]

10 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm not buying your answer of reversing the question, either answer it and be constructive, or don't and prove that you don't know how.

Hold on simoh, that's not a bad question, particularly at this

moment when EU military are making way to the Russian

borders, and Russian jet airplanes are flying over north

Atlantic.  Getting involved with Russia will not bode well.

UK sovereignty could be the way out.

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

An economic growth rate of 1%+ for the next five years is acceptable. Tax will only rise significantly if Corbyn gets in. The exchange rates will remain stable because economic growth will remain steady. Credit rating won't change, for the same reason. NHS is a car crash. It will plod on more-or-less as it is for quite a few more years yet, until it reaches the point where it can no longer be funded adequately. Then somebody will be given the poisoned chalice of radically re-structuring it.

Interesting point about the NHS. I am in Patts at the moment and last Sunday went to a Sports Bar to watch the Australian Grand Prix.(not the ball torturing with sand paper one) I was joined  at my table by a young Danish man....Marine Engineer and his gf . During the dry moments of the race I enquired if his gf had a twin sister and why he was in Thailand. I won't bore you with the sexual details the mods wouldn't approve but he said he was in Thailand for surgery. He is 27 years old and has advanced arthritis He showed me his knees and one was half as big again as the other. I told him I thought Denmark had a good public medical system. He said it's as good as anywhere in the world but its underfunded and the waiting list for that surgery was 14 months and the cost privately was prohibitive.. Makes you think doesn't it.  

[StreetCowboy]

13 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Hold on simoh, that's not a bad question, particularly at this

moment when EU military are making way to the Russian

borders, and Russian jet airplanes are flying over north

Atlantic.  Getting involved with Russia will not bode well.

UK sovereignty could be the way out.

 

You’re right.  I’m sure if war breaks out in Europe we’ll be able to keep out of it.  Neville Chamberlain did a good job of that, for a year or two, last time.  Though in this age of emails, we won’t even have a piece of paper in our hand.

 

The last thing we want to do is present a solid, united front against bullies who might come after us next, after Ukraine, and Chechnya...

[bannork]

2 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

You’re right.  I’m sure if war breaks out in Europe we’ll be able to keep out of it.  Neville Chamberlain did a good job of that, for a year or two, last time.  Though in this age of emails, we won’t even have a piece of paper in our hand.

 

The last thing we want to do is present a solid, united front against bullies who might come after us next, after Ukraine, and Chechnya...

Stop worrying SC, you know Donald and his boys will come to our aid a few years down the line like last time.

Oh sheeesh,  I forgot, Donald's well in with the bare chested boxer from Saint Petersburg.

[StreetCowboy]

21 minutes ago, bannork said:

Stop worrying SC, you know Donald and his boys will come to our aid a few years down the line like last time.

Oh sheeesh,  I forgot, Donald's well in with the bare chested boxer from Saint Petersburg.

He's the best president Putin could afford

[talahtnut]

4 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

He's the best president Putin could afford

He could have had a UK prime minister for 50p.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Honestly, I'm not at all desperate.

As an American, I feel that the UK is a good friend, and when a good friend makes a huge mistake, you hope they can find a way to undo it.

 

A good friend, especially recently. Donald helps us by being happy about the leave vote. Thank you Donald.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

A question for the Brexiteers:

 

What set of economic and social circumstances would have to materialise to make you believe that Brexit was the wrong choice? For example and just to get you thinking, but in no way limited to: a 3% drop in GDP for more than 5 years; a 5p increase in the basic rate of tax; an exchange rate of 1GBP=1USD; a drop in the UK credit rating to BBB; privatisation of the NHS as a means to make money, and so on. This is not a trap, I just want to try and understand what the Brexit threshold of pain looks like.

Arch remainers just will not accept that economics was not the prime reason for the leave vote. They have no other argument. Ever.

 

If we take your examples, assuming that the numbers and other prophecies of doom, or even worse, were to become reality, then, inevitably, a similar economic plight would also beset the EU members, maybe bar Germany (for a while).  

[billd766]

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

don't argue with a brexiter,for them it's all about taking back the control they never had, in America it's Joe the plumber, in the UK it's Joe Bloggs, they both think they matter. I think the German reference is even more pointed, a 08/15 citizen ( a comparison to a file number)

 

Actually I and many people like me  do matter far more than you with regards to Brexit.

 

Why? Simply because we have a vote on Brexit in the UK.

 

Do you and, if so did you exercise it?

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by billd766

[talahtnut]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Arch remainers just will not accept that economics was not the prime reason for the leave vote. They have no other argument. Ever.

 

If we take your examples, assuming that the numbers and other prophecies of doom, or even worse, were to become reality, then, inevitably, a similar economic plight would also beset the EU members, maybe bar Germany (for a while).  

Hard work being right is it not?  I believe you are correct, a simple

example would be-  If you were running a business, would you like the

business next door to interfere in your affairs?

The UK is simply a business and we don't like interference either.

Its called sovereignty.

 

[simoh1490]

More blah blah and still no answer to the simple question I posted! As a group, all you do by dodging such questions is confirm to everyone else your inability to argue succinctly and logically which wholly undermines the credibility of those who voted for Brexit. In that respect you're not really Brexiteers, you're would be Brexiteers, you jumped on a bandwagon but apart from the emotive arguments, you don't know why you're there, all hat and no cattle as they say - I can't answer your questions because they're all loaded and I can't give you any economic forecasts but I can give you lots of rhetoric and emoticons, truly, truly remarkable.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

More blah blah and still no answer to the simple question I posted! As a group, all you do by dodging such questions is confirm to everyone else your inability to argue succinctly and logically which wholly undermines the credibility of those who voted for Brexit. In that respect you're not really Brexiteers, you're would be Brexiteers, you jumped on a bandwagon but apart from the emotive arguments, you don't know why you're there, all hat and no cattle as they say - I can't answer your questions because they're all loaded and I can't give you any economic forecasts but I can give you lots of rhetoric and emoticons, truly, truly remarkable.

 

Simoh, nobody is interested in your loaded questions. And nobody is interested in your grandstanding over them. You need to find a less discerning, more pliant audience.

[simoh1490]

OK so there's yet another, "I don't know, it's too difficult to think about" answer, I wonder if poster aright will answer, he seems to have a brain and be capable of thought, we shall see. As a reminder, the question is:

 

"What set of economic and social circumstances would have to materialise to make you believe that Brexit was the wrong choice? For example and just to get you thinking, but in no way limited to: a 3% drop in GDP for more than 5 years; a 5p increase in the basic rate of tax; an exchange rate of 1GBP=1USD; a drop in the UK credit rating to BBB; privatisation of the NHS as a means to make money, and so on. This is not a trap, I just want to try and understand what the Brexit threshold of pain looks like".

[simoh1490]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

Arch remainers just will not accept that economics was not the prime reason for the leave vote. They have no other argument. Ever.

 

If we take your examples, assuming that the numbers and other prophecies of doom, or even worse, were to become reality, then, inevitably, a similar economic plight would also beset the EU members, maybe bar Germany (for a while).  

Unsurprisingly you have not understood the question. The question I put forward is hypothetical, it asks you at what point of economic duress would you reconsider your position. The question doesn't need to consider contagion and it doesn't need to consider other aspects of the Brexit vote, it merely asks what your economic threshold for pain might be, how much economic change you're willing to tolerate, despite all other factors. So you have your independence, your blue passports, your fishing and farming and rule making and your free from external interference from overseas, is all that worth suffering on the economic front and to what degree?  

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Actually I and many people like me  do matter far more than you with regards to Brexit.

 

Why? Simply because we have a vote on Brexit in the UK.

 

Do you and, if so did you exercise it?

 

 

You have a small influence as a mass when voting (although what actually happens after an election is another matter) but not as an individual, as an individual you are a tax number. No I didn't vote on brexit, I am not allowed to, in fact I have never voted for anything in my life, which means of course I shouldn't moan about which government I had but then I never did, whoever was in power only had minimal affect on my life just as I and you have only a minimal effect on the powers that be. I still went to work,I still paid my taxes, I still watched the news and saw who was bombing who. As long as you don't want to be a hero it doesn't matter under what system you live, who is better off, the Chinese or the Indians ?

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Hold on simoh, that's not a bad question, particularly at this

moment when EU military are making way to the Russian

borders, and Russian jet airplanes are flying over north

Atlantic.  Getting involved with Russia will not bode well.

UK sovereignty could be the way out.

 

'Peace in our time' sort of thing you mean? We can't rely on America,we aren't strong enough to defend ourselves so I would have thought it better to join with our neighbours.

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Hard work being right is it not?  I believe you are correct, a simple

example would be-  If you were running a business, would you like the

business next door to interfere in your affairs?

The UK is simply a business and we don't like interference either.

Its called sovereignty.

 

Who is this 'we', the mass is never sovereign,they are always obeying someone and even the establishment has to obey circumstances. Sovereignty, the word seems to imply isolated power of decision, that is a fallacy.

[talahtnut]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

You have a small influence as a mass when voting (although what actually happens after an election is another matter) but not as an individual, as an individual you are a tax number. No I didn't vote on brexit, I am not allowed to, in fact I have never voted for anything in my life, which means of course I shouldn't moan about which government I had but then I never did, whoever was in power only had minimal affect on my life just as I and you have only a minimal effect on the powers that be. I still went to work,I still paid my taxes, I still watched the news and saw who was bombing who. As long as you don't want to be a hero it doesn't matter under what system you live, who is better off, the Chinese or the Indians ?

That makes sense. 

The news: 'who was bombing who'..every night.

I haven't voted since the early 70s. It is as George Galloway said..

Voting, is choosing from two cheeks of the same ass.

 

[aright]

13 hours ago, soalbundy said:

As a normal working person in the UK how do you feel controlled from Brussels,what devastating effect has it had on your life? oh, refugees and immigrants, it's just a swap from Pakistanis to Bulgarians and Syrians, London was always cosmopolitan anyway.

It hasn't................yet, but I'm sure many people in the UK felt at ease with Germany in 1913.

[Orac]

OK so there's yet another, "I don't know, it's too difficult to think about" answer, I wonder if poster aright will answer, he seems to have a brain and be capable of thought, we shall see. As a reminder, the question is:
 
"What set of economic and social circumstances would have to materialise to make you believe that Brexit was the wrong choice? For example and just to get you thinking, but in no way limited to: a 3% drop in GDP for more than 5 years; a 5p increase in the basic rate of tax; an exchange rate of 1GBP=1USD; a drop in the UK credit rating to BBB; privatisation of the NHS as a means to make money, and so on. This is not a trap, I just want to try and understand what the Brexit threshold of pain looks like".

From a personal point of view I think this is getting pretty close to my tipping point, the only caveat being that the NHS remains free at the point of use whether it is privatised or not as long as it is paid for through increased taxes.

I voted and have supported the remain position since the start though I was initial unsure as I have always been uneasy about the EU though I can see the enormous economic benefits it brings. My personal circumstances however give me an opportunity to benefit from Brexit since I have no sterling based pension or significant income stream and most of my assets are in other currencies so the idea that, since nobody knows what the future holds 10/20 years down the line living in Thailand, that I could move back to the UK and find I am comparatively better off due to economic stagnation there is enticing.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

That makes sense. 

The news: 'who was bombing who'..every night.

I haven't voted since the early 70s. It is as George Galloway said..

Voting, is choosing from two cheeks of the same ass.

 

Or as Mark Twain said, "If voting made a difference they wouldn't let us do it"

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, aright said:

It hasn't................yet, but I'm sure many people in the UK felt at ease with Germany in 1913.

I'm sure many Germans felt at ease with the people in the UK in 1913, I don't think that the masses on either side saw the logic in an English baker trying to kill a German baker or vice versa, but of course the masses are easily manipulated and the dead can't complain.

[talahtnut]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Who is this 'we', the mass is never sovereign,they are always obeying someone and even the establishment has to obey circumstances. Sovereignty, the word seems to imply isolated power of decision, that is a fallacy.

Quite right,  What I meant by 'we' was as the people of the State.

State sovereignty is the key.

[soalbundy]

Just now, talahtnut said:

Quite right,  What I meant by 'we' was as the people of the State.

State sovereignty is the key.

but like the masses even the state is dependant on circumstances in the world. the word sovereign has no real meaning,even a medieval king was dependant on his lords and acted on his own wishes at his peril.