Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[7by7]

The topic has moved on since I last visited, but a few points I'd like to address to @aright.

 

I can't quote your post directly because you posted inside the quote of my posts; which is probably why so doing is against the forum rules. But I will attempt to deal with your three points.

 

1) Your figures from the anti immigration pressure group Migration Watch are estimates; as they admit. But kudos to you for finding a link; any chance of a non biased one?

 

2) I asked you "If the UK's borders are as porous as you claim, why there are so many people camped out in the Pas de Calais attempting and failing to enter the UK?" which you refused to answer. Instead you posted at length about how illegals can and do enter the UK and the claims, probably true to some extent, that illegals now enter the UK via the RoI.

 

Both of which conflict with Migration Watch's claim that most illegals entered the UK legally and then overstayed! Which do you believe?

 

3) Are you arguing that the 95 year old common travel area agreement between the UK, the RoI, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man should be disbanded following Brexit, or just that the RoI should be ejected from it and a hard border put in place between the UK and RoI?

 

4) I did not call the Express article hysterical, I called the headline hysterical. Articles are written by journalists, headlines are written by sub editors.

[soalbundy]

30 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Better than like Miss Haversham.sitting in the dinning hall amongst all the rotting food .or watching all the rest of the guests fighting over whats left of the meal after Germany and Brussels have taken the lions share.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

don't exaggerate but even if that were the case of victor takes all it would be OK if the UK was doing the grabbing I suppose as in the merry days of Empire, might is right. The Germans will pay in the end, they didn't want the Euro, they are against QE, they want financial stability. The Euro should only have been for the Northern states, let the South squander and borrow, its what they do best.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, 7by7 said:

The topic has moved on since I last visited, but a few points I'd like to address to @aright.

 

I can't quote your post directly because you posted inside the quote of my posts; which is probably why so doing is against the forum rules. But I will attempt to deal with your three points.

 

1) Your figures from the anti immigration pressure group Migration Watch are estimates; as they admit. But kudos to you for finding a link; any chance of a non biased one?

 

2) I asked you "If the UK's borders are as porous as you claim, why there are so many people camped out in the Pas de Calais attempting and failing to enter the UK?" which you refused to answer. Instead you posted at length about how illegals can and do enter the UK and the claims, probably true to some extent, that illegals now enter the UK via the RoI.

 

Both of which conflict with Migration Watch's claim that most illegals entered the UK legally and then overstayed! Which do you believe?

 

3) Are you arguing that the 95 year old common travel area agreement between the UK, the RoI, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man should be disbanded following Brexit, or just that the RoI should be ejected from it and a hard border put in place between the UK and RoI?

 

4) I did not call the Express article hysterical, I called the headline hysterical. Articles are written by journalists, headlines are written by sub editors.

Why have you re-entered this topic?

 

Merkel has admitted that she made a mistake.

 

I can only assume that you're on a 'cause' to support something even merkel has given up?  Can we please get back on topic.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Quite right, apart from the "good of the country" bit.

 

The workers and the wealthy have a very different perspective on the"good of the country' - hence the brexit vote.

 

But of course you're welcome to believe that the "good of the country" is reliant on the wealth of the wealthy, and everyone else is irrelevant.

that won't change, brexit or no brexit, as Jesus once said, the poor will always be with us, the rich have taken it to heart.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not really, other than back-stabbing, clueless politicians always being the case.

 

No reason to single out brexit as anything other than the normal amongst politicians.

So by you account, representative democracy is a failure as a system of government ?  What exactly do you surget we replace it with?

 

I think it works, the current failure is due to the lack  of an effective opposition or press to hold them too account. MPs are able to lie with impunity.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, soalbundy said:

that won't change, brexit or no brexit, as Jesus once said, the poor will always be with us, the rich have taken it to heart.

Very true - but that doesn't make me any happier about the wealthy riding roughshod over everyone else.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

 

I don't disagree with the result of the referendum,  I disagree on the action we need take as a result of it .

 

 

2 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Well I never, after all this time, you reveal that you have just been a Brexiteer in disguise; great stuff tebee, do drop in for a glass of pinot gris ??✌️✌️

 

That's a bit naughty Mr Pilgrim, only quoting part of what I said to reverse its meaning.  

 

My meaning was what the government has done was was far too divisive, They played the referendum result for political gain and now the country is now split and no one is  is going to be happy with whatever result we get. 

[The Renegade]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

My meaning was what the government has done was was far too divisive, They played the referendum result for political gain and now the country is now split and no one is  is going to be happy with whatever result we get. 

The Government played the referendum result for Political gain ??

 

There was no Political gain to be had by the Government

 

Quote

This is YOUR decision, the Government will implement what YOU decide.

 

Remainer Politicians played the referendum result for Political gain, not the Government.

 

One last thing. Why do you and many others keep banging on about the referendum ?

 

The Referendum took place in June 2016. This was superseded, as I have already explained to you, by a Commons vote in January 2017 to trigger Article 50.

 

This was passed by 498 MP's voting to trigger A50 against 114 who voted against triggering A50.

 

The Referendum is dead and buried as any sort of argument. If there is now any argument it should be directed at the overwhelming majority of MP's who voted to trigger A50.

Edited June 9, 2018 by The Renegade

[adammike]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

The problem is that the uk govt. is showing every sign of wishing to remain within the eu ( suprise suprise....)

 

You (like myself) hate the way the uk govt. is gradually watering down the leave vote - but we have to accept that this is the case.

That's because they only want to leave by 52% max, or maybe by 37% because that's how much of the electorate actually voted to leave.

[transam]

33 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why have you re-entered this topic?

 

Merkel has admitted that she made a mistake.

 

I can only assume that you're on a 'cause' to support something even merkel has given up?  Can we please get back on topic.

He's back because he believes few folk  come into the UK illegally...He mentions Calais, well I will too...The UK has 400 immigration staff there working 24/7..The naughty folk who are caught are let loose by the French to go back and camp to try again...

A 1000 trucks a day cross the channel, does he think they are all stripped down...

The man is deluded..

He should try watching the UK programs about what the immigration folk actually contend with ever day...

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I've given my opinion on why this is happening time and time again, but for some reason still need to keep repeating it!

 

May along with 99% of MPs prefer to remain within the eu, as does 'big business' and the establishment.

 

Suprise suprise, they're coming up with an ever softer version of brexit.....

Because they are intelligent and know what's best for the country whilst keeping the silly populists under control

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Because they are intelligent and know what's best for the country whilst keeping the silly populists under control

Yep,

 

Backpeddling Merkel proved beyond a doubt that this is complete garbage.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Yep,

 

Backpeddling Merkel proved beyond a doubt that this is complete garbage.

Off topic. Read the OP.

 

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

that won't change, brexit or no brexit, as Jesus once said, the poor will always be with us, the rich have taken it to heart.

I'm pretty sure that guys like Boris Johnston, Nigel Farrage and Jacob Rees-Mogg understand and have the interests of the common man at heart.  

[Chelseafan]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

 

That's a bit naughty Mr Pilgrim, only quoting part of what I said to reverse its meaning.  

 

My meaning was what the government has done was was far too divisive, They played the referendum result for political gain and now the country is now split and no one is  is going to be happy with whatever result we get. 

Either 48% will be happy or 52% will be happy.

 

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

I'm pretty sure that guys like Boris Johnston, Nigel Farrage and Jacob Rees-Mogg understand and have the interests of the common man at heart.  

It is as it is, accept that first and then aspire to be happy instead of running with the pack for ever more and more, unless you enjoy doing that, sufficient is enough

[soalbundy]

Just now, Chelseafan said:

Either 48% will be happy or 52% will be happy.

 

but we all know nobody is going to be happy, united in discontent.

[Chelseafan]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

That's because they only want to leave by 52% max, or maybe by 37% because that's how much of the electorate actually voted to leave.

And less than 37% voted to remain.

 

[soalbundy]

17 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

And less than 37% voted to remain.

 

yes minister

[malagateddy]

Because they are intelligent and know what's best for the country whilst keeping the silly populists under control

Grouse..there you go again..bad mouthing the populists..tell you what..when you visit Govanhill on your travels..why not rent a lovely 1 bedroom flat for a few days..the proof is in the pudding..walk the walk!!

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Grouse..there you go again..bad mouthing the populists.

Whilst having the brass neck to say to me

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Off topic. Read the OP.

Pretty damn sure the OP does not mention '' Populists ''

 

 

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, soalbundy said:

politicians do have to.

Well there lies the nutshell, need politicians with some guts and fight for what there constituency voted for regardless of what they wanted.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Well there lies the nutshell, need politicians with some guts and fight for what there constituency voted for regardless of what they wanted.

and nobody should be homeless, the NHS should work like clock work, people working should get a living wage etc. politicians are only human beings, they may start out as idealists but are constrained by the realities of the real world and end up with their own agenda, it must be quite difficult, my constituents want this, my party wants that, business in my constituency wants this but I think the best way to go is this, oh to hell with it.

In the department in firm I worked for in Germany (just as an example) we had a brilliant young head accountant, honest and efficient, he was given the task by the head of our department to calculate whether an investment in India would be profitable, this would be presented to the board of directors. He did the complicated calculations and found yes it would be a good investment, my group leader who was a technical ace but also a good politician was horrified, ''Don't you listen to the grapevine, nobody wants this, our boss doesn't want it and neither do the directors,they want China, they need a lousy report about India for the shareholders, do the calculations again but make them negative'' I was there, I could see his disappointment and idealism collapse there and then, welcome to the real world.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

and nobody should be homeless, the NHS should work like clock work, people working should get a living wage etc. politicians are only human beings, they may start out as idealists but are constrained by the realities of the real world and end up with their own agenda, it must be quite difficult, my constituents want this, my party wants that, business in my constituency wants this but I think the best way to go is this, oh to hell with it.

In the department in firm I worked for in Germany (just as an example) we had a brilliant young head accountant, honest and efficient, he was given the task by the head of our department to calculate whether an investment in India would be profitable, this would be presented to the board of directors. He did the complicated calculations and found yes it would be a good investment, my group leader who was a technical ace but also a good politician was horrified, ''Don't you listen to the grapevine, nobody wants this, our boss doesn't want it and neither do the directors,they want China, they need a lousy report about India for the shareholders, do the calculations again but make them negative'' I was there, I could see his disappointment and idealism collapse there and then, welcome to the real world.

How did you manage to write such a long winded comment that is nothing to do with the topic ?

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

1. nobody should be homeless, the NHS should work like clock work, people working should get a living wage etc.

 

2. politicians are only human beings, they may start out as idealists business in my constituency wants this but I think the best way to go is this,

 

3. oh to hell with it.

In the department in firm I worked for in Germany (just as an example)

 

4. welcome to the real world.

I can see you care.

 

1. Yeah 2 out of 3 that should be the goal, NHS clockwork impossible but let doctors run it not poxy managers.

 

2. Politicians well how can you believe a politician when you know that if you were in their position you would lie too.

 

3. Just another backroom deal that you and many others have no control over.

 

4. Nothing real about it, it has to change.

[Kwasaki]

19 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

How did you manage to write such a long winded comment that is nothing to do with the topic ?

 

Why not topic, UK & EU related in the post.

[Chelseafan]

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

yes minister

Off topic but still one of the funniest comedies ever made.....

 

[7by7]

10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why have you (7b7) re-entered this topic?

 

Merkel has admitted that she made a mistake.

 

I can only assume that you're on a 'cause' to support something even merkel has given up?  Can we please get back on topic.

I assume that you are referring to Merkel's admission in 2016 that Germany's refugee policy prior to that was a mistake. What that has to do with non EU national illegal immigrants in the UK, only you know.

 

The EU has never had any control over the UK's rules and regulations regarding non EEA immigration, nor any other member state come to that. Neither, of course, has Germany!

 

Whilst non EEA national immigration is, and always has been, a matter for individual member states, although many have combined their rules via the Schengen agreement, it is a fact, acknowledged by many Brexiteers, that one of the reasons whey many people voted Leave was because of non EEA national immigration. Had these people been better educated on the matter, a failing of the Remain campaign, then it is possible the result of the referendum would have been different.

 

However, the horse has bolted, so closing the stable door is pointless. We just have to make the best of a bad decision.

 

9 hours ago, transam said:

He's back because he believes few folk  come into the UK illegally...He mentions Calais, well I will too...The UK has 400 immigration staff there working 24/7..The naughty folk who are caught are let loose by the French to go back and camp to try again...

A 1000 trucks a day cross the channel, does he think they are all stripped down...

The man is deluded..

He should try watching the UK programs about what the immigration folk actually contend with ever day...

 Yet again, you put words into my mouth. I have never said that I believe few folk come to the UK illegally.

 

I don't know exactly how many UKVI and Border Force officers are stationed in Calais, so I'll take your figure of 400. But are you sure they all work 24/7? Don't any of them ever sleep?

 

I do know why there are there; because of the agreement between the UK and France and the UK and Belgium for juxtaposed immigration controls: agreements dating back to 1991!

 

Yes, a large number of lorries do cross the channel each day; in both directions and by no means all via Calais. Doubtless some of them do contain illegal immigrants,  with or without the collusion of the driver.

 

But, like aright and dick dastardly, you have failed to answer the simple question: if getting into the UK illegally is as easy as you all claim, why are there so many people camped around Calais, and other channel ports, who have failed time and time again to so do?

 

Rather than using the selected programmes you choose to watch in your eyrie 6,000 miles away, I see on the TV and listen to on the radio national and local news and current affairs programmes on this, and many other, matters daily here in the UK.

 

BTW, I have again posted without obtaining permission from either of you; because it is not required! 

Edited June 9, 2018 by 7by7

[Chelseafan]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

The EU has never had any control over the UK's rules and regulations regarding non EEA immigration, nor any other member state come to that. Neither, of course, has Germany!

Sort of. Merkel  was very keen for other member states, including Britain to take their fare share of the 1m immigrants coming into Germany. The issue was  they were then free to move to other member states once they were given their papers.

 

 

[Chelseafan]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

I don't know exactly how many UKVI and Border Force officers are stationed in Calais, so I'll take your figure of 400. But are you sure they all work 24/7? Don't any of them ever sleep?

 

Latest estimates from 2017 put the figure anywhere between 700 and 2500.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/calais-refugees-year-after-razing-of-camp

 

Most of these are economic migrants.

 

"But, like aright and dick dastardly, you have failed to answer the simple question: if getting into the UK illegally is as easy as you all claim, why are there so many people camped around Calais, and other channel ports, who have failed time and time again to so do? "

 

And how many have got though the net without being detected, quite a few I would expect. Not every truck coming in is searched.

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Chelseafan