Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Grouse]

Vince on Andrew Marr was splendid. The only statesman we have right now. 

 

Any Questions from Sevenoaks is also recommended. Theyvoted 54% for Brexit. Boy has that mood changed.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Do you mean like Germany?

Last year we knew that the German election would not result in one party having an overall majority so a hung Bundestag was a certainty and word has it if policies don't change it will get progressively more hung. 

 

 

Nowt wrong with coalitions 

[lungbing]

Assuming the audience is from Sevenoaks and hasn't been shipped in.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, talahtnut said:

My sentiments too. Walk away, watch 'em come begging at the door.

Long wait

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, lungbing said:

Assuming the audience is from Sevenoaks and hasn't been shipped in.

No it was dubbed. You know the BBC ?

[7by7]

From September  2015, but I doubt it's changed: Any Questions: BBC debate show is 'biased' because Tories don't show up, panelist claims

Quote

Although members of the public applying to take part in BBC1’s Question Time are asked their political affiliations to try and ensure balance, Any Questions, produced by Lisa Jenkinson, leaves responsibility for audience selection entirely in the hands of the venue hosting the programme.

Venue managers are asked to offer “a number of tickets (approximately 10) to the local political parties in your area.” Members of the host’s organisation should be given “first call” on tickets and one third must be made “available to the general public on a first come, first served basis”.

 

[aright]

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Nowt wrong with coalitions 

There is if the coalition is built on sand. The last German election was the worst result for the two main parties since World War Two, as a direct result of increasing popularity for the extreme right wing party. The coalition was formed as a result of voter discontent and the current Eurozone crisis (Greece, Italy, immigration unemployment etc.)

No longer is Merkel synonymous with a strong and stable government except with luvvies like yourself. As to what will follow, your guess is as good as mine. 

[nausea]

I see another one's being called out on her lies, career politician's, don't you just love 'em.

 

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, soalbundy said:

That was a crossbow

I like both.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

There is if the coalition is built on sand. The last German election was the worst result for the two main parties since World War Two, as a direct result of increasing popularity for the extreme right wing party. The coalition was formed as a result of voter discontent and the current Eurozone crisis (Greece, Italy, immigration unemployment etc.)

No longer is Merkel synonymous with a strong and stable government except with luvvies like yourself. As to what will follow, your guess is as good as mine. 

Do you read the German press?

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Why would any of that be relevant to trying to call the EU's bluff?  They are a damn site bigger than us so they have a damn site more bargaining power, deal with it.

Maybe because they need British money to finance their system.

A simple question, Why are the Bureaucrats in Brussels and many of the national governments, so keen for us to remain in this so called Union?

 If for instance the Scot’s  has voted by just 1 vote to separate from the rest of the U.K in 2014, I personally would have respected their democratic decision.

I certainly would not have supported any government that would have tried to overturn their democratic vote.

Again if the French were to vote on continued membership of the E.U.

and voted for exit, why should the British not respect their democratic decision.

[aright]

39 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do you read the German press?

Why? Are they the real deal?

My opinions are based on voting results. How else would I know about an increase in people voting for right wing parties ,and a decrease in Angela's vote by 8.5% over 2013.

Edited April 29, 2018 by aright

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Pay £39 million?

It is only right ands proper that we pay for liabilities carried over from prior to Brexit. no confirmed figure has yet been agreed, but £39 billion, payable in instalments until 2064 is the current estimate to cover, among other things. Farage's fat EU pension!  

 

Remain in the single market and customs union?

Those of us who live in the UK and pay attention to the news know that May has not agreed to this; far from it. Indeed, following last weeks vote to do so in the Lords she stated that it would definitely NOT happen. Of course, as we are a Parliamentary democracy, that may be overturned by Parliament; but only if enough of her own MPs vote against it.

 

Obey All current and new EU law?

Current EU laws have been incorporated into UK law following Brexit, because doing so is the only way Parliament can then decide which to keep, which to amend and which to dispose of post Brexit. Where does it say that we will have to comply with EU laws passed after Brexit?

 

Comply with ECJ judicial oversight?

Like a customs union, this is one of May's 'red lines' which she will not cross. However, again, she could be overruled by Parliament.

 

Continued common fisheries policy?

The UK has agreed to continue in this during the transition period, i.e. until 1st Jan 2021. Then the UK becomes an independent coastal state with the ability to set its own fisheries management law. When the U.K. becomes a coastal state, it has the right to control who fishes in a 200-nautical-mile zone around the island, known as the exclusive economic zone.

 

Comply with budget commitments?

This is merely the same as "Pay £39 billion." Whoever made up this rubbish is obviously determined to make the list longer by repeating themselves; pathetic.

 

Continued free movement?

A complex issue. Should those British nationals exercising a treaty right in another member state be allowed to continue to do so post Brexit? Will, they will only be allowed to so do if nationals of the other 26 currently exercising a treaty right in the UK are allowed to do the same.

 

Post Brexit is a different matter, one made even more complicated by the so called Irish question. Freedom of movement has existed between the RoI and UK since the founding of the Republic. But with Ireland in the EU and bound by the FoM directive and the UK not; can that continue?

 

As you can see, most of the propaganda you copied is simply falsehoods. For the remainder, freedom of movement, the issue is extremely complicated and no agreement has been reached yet.

 

 Why; perfectly sound word.

 

Of course, you should have typed 'democratic' (lower case d) as 'Democratic' (upper case D) is a proper noun, usually meaning a political party in the USA.

 

Unless you mean in you believe that some way that party influenced the referendum result?

While it’s right that we should be liable for liabilities pre our departure, it’s also Right that the UK should be credited with part of the assets of this so called Union. Unfortunately T.M has simply caved into the E.U. Bureaucrats demands.

 

Why should we continue with the Common Fisheries Policy, even for another day, never mind another 21 more months.The British people voted for Brexit in one go, not in stages.

 

Free movement is simple. The British people want it stopped, unless it’s in the interest of the British economy, to allow certain groups to be granted visas.

What that foreign entity, the E.U. Want, is up to them,we certainly should not dictate their policy for them. 

 

 Many of the other points I mentioned, are the aspiration of the remainers, including the unelected HOL’s and as some of the remainers on this thread have already pointed out, T.M. if reports are to be believed, is now wavering. 

 

Regarding your nit picking regards the word “Democratic” I was under the impression that this thread is in relation to the E.U and it’s relationship with the U.K. You on the other hand,seem to think it relates to the U.S.A.

 

[aright]

52 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do you read the German press?

Is this the press you are referring to?

 

"The front page of the "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper may well have ruined Angela Merkel's breakfast on Sunday. Europe's biggest-selling newspaper featured a dark, full-page silhouette of the German chancellor's head, containing the headline "Is Merkel still the right one?" - questioning whether she is really fit to govern.

In between the words of this rhetorical question, the tabloid printed what it considered Merkel's main problems: "lack of respect, lack of authority, power struggles" - "terrorism, criminality, overburdened authorities," before adding, "Merkel's refugee policy on the point of failure.""

[Scott]

Let's stay on topic, please.   If you wish to post about other countries, it needs to tie into the Brexit situation. 

 

[bristolboy]

8 hours ago, nontabury said:

Maybe because they need British money to finance their system.

A simple question, Why are the Bureaucrats in Brussels and many of the national governments, so keen for us to remain in this so called Union?

 If for instance the Scot’s  has voted by just 1 vote to separate from the rest of the U.K in 2014, I personally would have respected their democratic decision.

I certainly would not have supported any government that would have tried to overturn their democratic vote.

Again if the French were to vote on continued membership of the E.U.

and voted for exit, why should the British not respect their democratic decision.

And what is the net contribution of the UK to the EU. I'll give you a hint: It doesn't amount to much more than a rounding error in terms of the budgets of Germany or France. Put just those 2 budgets together and it's ludicrously small. Add in the rest of the budgets of the net contributors and it's infinitesimal.

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

I can see us leaving "The Customs Union" but effectively remaining in the customs union in all but name and the fact that we will give up our seat at high table! Why? So the damned Cons can claim to have delivered what the morons get what they think they wanted. Great! Well done! Biscuits all round.

Yeah, we showed em, we got our country back.

[Kieran00001]

8 hours ago, nontabury said:

Maybe because they need British money to finance their system.

A simple question, Why are the Bureaucrats in Brussels and many of the national governments, so keen for us to remain in this so called Union?

 If for instance the Scot’s  has voted by just 1 vote to separate from the rest of the U.K in 2014, I personally would have respected their democratic decision.

I certainly would not have supported any government that would have tried to overturn their democratic vote.

Again if the French were to vote on continued membership of the E.U.

and voted for exit, why should the British not respect their democratic decision.

 

We voted to remain in the EEC back in 1975, there was a campaign to leave running ever since, now we have voted to leave and you are irked by the fact that there is already a campaign to remain, get over it, we don't all want the same and never did.

[Kieran00001]

8 hours ago, nontabury said:

Maybe because they need British money to finance their system.

A simple question, Why are the Bureaucrats in Brussels and many of the national governments, so keen for us to remain in this so called Union?

 If for instance the Scot’s  has voted by just 1 vote to separate from the rest of the U.K in 2014, I personally would have respected their democratic decision.

I certainly would not have supported any government that would have tried to overturn their democratic vote.

Again if the French were to vote on continued membership of the E.U.

and voted for exit, why should the British not respect their democratic decision.

 

We voted to remain in the EEC back in 1975, there was a campaign to leave running ever since, now we have voted to leave and you are irked by the fact that there is already a campaign to remain, get over it, we don't all want the same and never did.

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, aright said:

Why? Are they the real deal?

My opinions are based on voting results. How else would I know about an increase in people voting for right wing parties ,and a decrease in Angela's vote by 8.5% over 2013.

Voting results don't tell the whole story, there are subtle differences between such results and what the people are feeling. If you only read the Daily Excess you get the feeling Germany is on the verge of collapse (nothing could be further from the truth) and that everyone in Berlin is in panic about Brexit. Brexit is barely mentioned in the German press and while production output has fallen slightly the order books are full until the end of 2019.

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, aright said:

Why? Are they the real deal?

My opinions are based on voting results. How else would I know about an increase in people voting for right wing parties ,and a decrease in Angela's vote by 8.5% over 2013.

Because you would understand that the German is system is superior to our outmoded FPTP system which leaves so many feeling disenfranchised with two incompetent main parties.

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, aright said:

Is this the press you are referring to?

 

"The front page of the "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper may well have ruined Angela Merkel's breakfast on Sunday. Europe's biggest-selling newspaper featured a dark, full-page silhouette of the German chancellor's head, containing the headline "Is Merkel still the right one?" - questioning whether she is really fit to govern.

In between the words of this rhetorical question, the tabloid printed what it considered Merkel's main problems: "lack of respect, lack of authority, power struggles" - "terrorism, criminality, overburdened authorities," before adding, "Merkel's refugee policy on the point of failure.""

No, SDZ and FAZ 

 

back on topic before we get the cane!

[tebee]

Behind the paywall but a good question 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/04/29/can-government-perpetrates-windrush-scandal-trusted-brexit/

 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Voting results don't tell the whole story, there are subtle differences between such results and what the people are feeling. If you only read the Daily Excess you get the feeling Germany is on the verge of collapse (nothing could be further from the truth) and that everyone in Berlin is in panic about Brexit. Brexit is barely mentioned in the German press and while production output has fallen slightly the order books are full until the end of 2019.

 

If you read the Independent or the Guardian you will believe that the UK and Brexit are on the brink of collapse. 

 

IMHO ALL newspapers and media are biased to one side or the other.

 

The only way to get close to the truth is to read the same story in all the newspapers and somewhere around the middle you may get the truth.

 

I don't suppose many people would do that but they tend to stick with what they WANT to believe.

 

I don't bother to read any of them unless somebody posts a link and then perhaps I may look at it, or not.

[soalbundy]

42 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

If you read the Independent or the Guardian you will believe that the UK and Brexit are on the brink of collapse. 

 

IMHO ALL newspapers and media are biased to one side or the other.

 

The only way to get close to the truth is to read the same story in all the newspapers and somewhere around the middle you may get the truth.

 

I don't suppose many people would do that but they tend to stick with what they WANT to believe.

 

I don't bother to read any of them unless somebody posts a link and then perhaps I may look at it, or not.

That is what I do for any important news item, 5 British newspapers, 1 American, 3 German and then Reuters, manager magazine, and Bloomberg. Despite this I can still be surprised at an outcome, life has a way of doing that. For Brexit I have formed three likely scenarios,

1 An extremely soft brexit which satisfies nobody except the banks and industry.

2 May gets pushed out, a new general election, Labour wins, brexit gets stopped.

3 The brexit chaos falls into such disarray that a second referendum is held, remain wins partly because people are sick and tired of the whole process, brexit is stopped, May is sacked, new Tory PM.

 But as I said, life has a way of surprising one with something completely unexpected although I very much doubt that it will be a brexit that the leavers want.

[Laughing Gravy]

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:04 PM, tebee said:

 

Equally British students can go and study for free in most of the other EU states. There is also  nothing to prevent  British students moving to another country post-graduating and forgeting to pay the loan back too.

 

If you lived as a British tax paying citizen in another EU country rather than Thailand, you wouldn't have the extra 50% to pay - at least now.

Bulgaria, Croatia. Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia to name a few countries in the EU, are just not as appealing, to get a university education from. I won’t explain why as it is obvious. They are about as appealing to a Brit or westerner, as the universities are here.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎28‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:24 AM, transam said:

Seems real born Scots could not vote in their independence ref either if they lived and worked in the England...I don't think that was fair.

I agree - I thought that was odd they couldn't vote.  Mind you, I worked with a Scots lady in London for 30 years, and she had a deep seated hatred for England, so I quite enjoyed seeing her seething about not being allowed a vote

[tebee]

26 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

That is what I do for any important news item, 5 British newspapers, 1 American, 3 German and then Reuters, manager magazine, and Bloomberg. Despite this I can still be surprised at an outcome, life has a way of doing that. For Brexit I have formed three likely scenarios,

1 An extremely soft brexit which satisfies nobody except the banks and industry.

2 May gets pushed out, a new general election, Labour wins, brexit gets stopped.

3 The brexit chaos falls into such disarray that a second referendum is held, remain wins partly because people are sick and tired of the whole process, brexit is stopped, May is sacked, new Tory PM.

 But as I said, life has a way of surprising one with something completely unexpected although I very much doubt that it will be a brexit that the leavers want.

I pretty much agree with those scenarios, but there is one other, though I don't like to contemplate it too much.

 

You have to remember  the default is, if there is no agreement, Britain will leave the EU in 11 months with no deal. The Ultra-Brexiters get their wet dream come true.  I can't really see people letting this happen, but the current shower are such incompetents it has to be a possibility. It will be a disaster, 1 in 6 people in the UK lose their jobs and the food supply chain goes missing in action. Not even any planes to escape the chaos.  

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

I pretty much agree with those scenarios, but there is one other, though I don't like to contemplate it too much.

 

You have to remember  the default is, if there is no agreement, Britain will leave the EU in 11 months with no deal. The Ultra-Brexiters get their wet dream come true.  I can't really see people letting this happen, but the current shower are such incompetents it has to be a possibility. It will be a disaster, 1 in 6 people in the UK lose their jobs and the food supply chain goes missing in action. Not even any planes to escape the chaos.  

 

 

Oh no!

 

 

The Sky is falling in again......

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Oh no!

 

 

The Sky is falling in again......

Won't be that bad, we have all our commonwealth chums to fall back on (but they will all want right of abode)