Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Now to the body of your piece.

 

This confirms exactly my view of populism. Ill thought through, naive, dumb.

 

This man is the brother of Rob Ford the disgraced former mayor of Toronto.

 

He is proposing tax cuts AND major spending on Toronto subway even Ontario has one of largest non sovereign debts in the world.

 

This is what you get with universal suffrage! Populists ?

You continually use ‘populist’ as a derogatory insult to millions of ordinary people who have voted for political parties across Europe that they believe can bring about the change they crave. It is how the popular vote works within a democracy, and the popular vote is not just restricted to parties that have gained power, challenges to the EU status quo are growing everywhere, with the AfD in the Federal Parliament in Germany for the first time, and now the largest opposition party. The surge is not going to stop.

 

So, while you sit in your intellectually elevated position, denigrating and insulting everyone you believe to be intellectually inferior to yourself, the ‘populists’ are changing the face of Europe before your very eyes; and you know what, despite all your berating of the masses, and vitriolic rhetoric, you can't do anything about it, other than insult people for voting how they saw fit to so do.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

No two Types of answerer - god. this Brexit thing falling apart is really getting to you isn't it?

Are you sure you are British ?

 

It appears that you cannot comprehend plain English or write in plain English.

 

Brexit is not falling apart, it is happening. Stop reading the UK MSM and dig out the kleenex.

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

So, while you sit in your intellectually elevated position,

Should that not read.

 

Quote

So, while you dream of sitting in an intellectually elevated position

??

 

[StreetCowboy]

17 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

You continually use ‘populist’ as a derogatory insult to millions of ordinary people who have voted for political parties across Europe that they believe can bring about the change they crave. It is how the popular vote works within a democracy, and the popular vote is not just restricted to parties that have gained power, challenges to the EU status quo are growing everywhere, with the AfD in the Federal Parliament in Germany for the first time, and now the largest opposition party. The surge is not going to stop.

 

So, while you sit in your intellectually elevated position, denigrating and insulting everyone you believe to be intellectually inferior to yourself, the ‘populists’ are changing the face of Europe before your very eyes; and you know what, despite all your berating of the masses, and vitriolic rhetoric, you can't do anything about it, other than insult people for voting how they saw fit to so do.

Let's hope it all ends well.  What could possibly go wrong?  I hope we don't have to create another state like Israel after this swing to populism in central Europe.

[StreetCowboy]

26 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

When you use a cartoon to highlight only 2 possible roads from a highly complex problem, it takes stupidity to a whole new level.

Making things unnecessarily complex is not a mark of intelligence.  

I think the cartoon is intended to be illustrative, rather than definitive.

 

I think it presents an opinion or point of view fairly succinctly.

It makes the point more clearly than shouted slogans

[The Renegade]

14 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Making things unnecessarily complex is not a mark of intelligence.  

Perhaps you could take that comment to the EU, beat them over the head with it repeatedly until they understand it.

[StreetCowboy]

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Perhaps you take that comment to the EU, beat them over the head with it repeatedly until they understand it.

Whenever I've taken the pruning shears to something I've thought unnecessarily complex, I've generally found that by the end of it, what I thought was unnecessarily complex was instead necessarily complex, if you wanted to achieve all the requirements set out for the thing in question, and if one wanted simplicity, one had to sacrifice requirements.

Edited June 8, 2018 by StreetCowboy
Inappropriate reference removed

[The Renegade]

22 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Making things unnecessarily complex is not a mark of intelligence.  

 

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Perhaps you could take that comment to the EU, beat them over the head with it repeatedly until they understand it.

And just to prove my point

 

Quote

An effort to ensure that all EU inhabitants enjoy access to clean water seemed on track to becoming the first successful European citizens’ initiative, a process allowing ordinary people to set the bloc’s agenda by gathering at least 1 million signatures.

 

Quote

But what was regarded as a legislative no-brainer has run into unexpected opposition after the European Commission introduced language specifying that the right to water be extended to apply to marginalized groups, including “refugees, nomadic communities, homeless people and minority cultures such as Roma.”

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/refugees-land-eu-in-hot-water-drinking/

 

If the EC had brains, they would be dangerous.

[StreetCowboy]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

And just to prove my point

 

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/refugees-land-eu-in-hot-water-drinking/

 

If the EC had brains, they would be dangerous.

My first thought was that the additional requirement was unnecessary and redundant, since "all" includes everyone.

 

However, my second thought was that the reason for including the additional redundant requirement was to make clear that "all" meant "all, regardless of difficulty or unpoularity", and when people realised that is what "all" meant, then they began to have second thoughts.

 

Leaping to conclusions is easy, based on limited knowledge, and fun, but not always correct or helpful.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

My first thought was that the additional requirement was unnecessary and redundant, since "all" includes everyone.

Your first thought was correct '' All means everyone ''

 

No need to introduce verbosity and create confusion, the EC's speciality.

 

 

[tebee]

Brexit will be economic suicide by 1000 cuts, one more example today 

 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/north-of-scotland/1491146/peterhead-fish-processing-could-be-relocated-to-poland-after-brexit-expert-warns/

Edited June 8, 2018 by tebee

[tebee]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Are you sure you are British ?

 

It appears that you cannot comprehend plain English or write in plain English.

 

Brexit is not falling apart, it is happening. Stop reading the UK MSM and dig out the kleenex.

Dyslexic and mildly autistic British I'm afraid.

 

Mother was half Irish Quaker half Italian. Father  less clear, but his relatives included Welsh, Jewish, French, Scottish   and Irish Catholic among their number, so basically as British as they come..... 

[StreetCowboy]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

 

And just to prove my point

 

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/refugees-land-eu-in-hot-water-drinking/

 

If the EC had brains, they would be dangerous.

I read the referenced article, and it appears that actually some member states had a problem with committing to providing clean drinking water to ALL their inhabitants; specifically, the vulnerable groups mentioned.

 

It appears that the problem was that the original motion was badly worded; the intent was that all drinking water should meet certain standards i.e. it was about the quality of drinking water that was already being provided, not who should receive it.

 

We are lucky to live in a community where the government looks out for the interests of the weak and disadvantaged, despite the deaf ears that the majority turn to their plight.

 

SC

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

The problem with most populist policies are today's problems are complex and it's hard for the masses to understand them. Simple solutions are almost invariably wrong, but the populist masses can understand them. 

There is no solution to this that is compatible with democracy though, other than having educated and informed press and politicians - which we don't at the moment.

 

  

Great cartoon. Sums up the situation rather elegantly!

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

You continually use ‘populist’ as a derogatory insult to millions of ordinary people who have voted for political parties across Europe that they believe can bring about the change they crave. It is how the popular vote works within a democracy, and the popular vote is not just restricted to parties that have gained power, challenges to the EU status quo are growing everywhere, with the AfD in the Federal Parliament in Germany for the first time, and now the largest opposition party. The surge is not going to stop.

 

So, while you sit in your intellectually elevated position, denigrating and insulting everyone you believe to be intellectually inferior to yourself, the ‘populists’ are changing the face of Europe before your very eyes; and you know what, despite all your berating of the masses, and vitriolic rhetoric, you can't do anything about it, other than insult people for voting how they saw fit to so do.

Populists are invariably incorrect. Shooting from the hip does not make for real long term improvements. It is so ironic that they will be worse off. What ever happens won't effect me personally one jot ?

 

I am delighted BTW that the use of populist as a derogatory expression is gaining traction! ?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

When you use a cartoon to highlight only 2 possible roads from a highly complex problem, it takes stupidity to a whole new level.

Just like the referendum then? ?

 

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

I have always been of the opinion, that an open and free agreement would be reached, once the Politicking was put to bed.

 

I tend to ignore the hysterics that are reproduced in the UK MSM that is designed with nothing more in mind than rabble rousing for one side or the other.

Renegade, you've been hacked!

 

That was a perfectly reasonable comment presented without rancour.

 

Who posted it?

[tebee]

73% of all British voters and even 70% of Leave voters now think Brexit is going badly.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results?utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1#/survey/ea30cfa2-6a2d-11e8-b423-d74e00ea34be/question/75c67445-6a2e-11e8-9d33-9d5c8eb86689/politics

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

73% of all British voters and even 70% of Leave voters now think Brexit is going badly.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results?utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1#/survey/ea30cfa2-6a2d-11e8-b423-d74e00ea34be/question/75c67445-6a2e-11e8-9d33-9d5c8eb86689/politics

Brilliant tebee, a real eye opener, it would have been an even bigger eye opener if it had asked.

 

Quote

Now tell us why you think it is not going well so far.

That would have given us the other part of the story that is missing.

[The Renegade]

For soalbundy

 

Quote

A series of downbeat numbers from across the euro area suggests that a slower pace of expansion is the new normal. The continued weakness even in the region’s largest economy, underscored by four months of sliding manufacturing orders, will cast a shadow over the European Central Bank’s crucial policy meeting next week, when officials plan to discuss the future of their stimulus program.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-08/german-economic-bad-news-continues-as-industrial-output-drops

 

I told you 2 or 3 days ago that the EU was on a 4 month downward slide, that continues in today's numbers.

 

It will continue it's downward slide until the ECB turns on the gas and raises QE again.

 

2017's brilliant EZ performance was down to €2.5Trillion in QE.

[StreetCowboy]

24 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Brilliant tebee, a real eye opener, it would have been an even bigger eye opener if it had asked.

 

That would have given us the other part of the story that is missing.

Either:

a) Because it was a half-arsed idea that had not been properly thought through
Or:
b) Government, the civil service, our EU Commissioners, the newspapers, television, big business, small business, parking wardens, the NHS, schools and universities, and everyone else except you and I are incompetent traitors who couldn't exit a wet paper bag.  And I'm not so sure about you. 

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Either:

a) Because it was a half-arsed idea that had not been properly thought through
Or:
b) Government, the civil service, our EU Commissioners, the newspapers, television, big business, small business, parking wardens, the NHS, schools and universities, and everyone else except you and I are incompetent traitors who couldn't exit a wet paper bag.  And I'm not so sure about you. 

Are you drunk already ? Ah ken whit these Fifers are like ??

 

Not sure about you, but if they are going out their way to do a poll, they should at least ask

 

'' Now tell us why you think it is not going well so far. ''

 

Half an answer is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike, or perhaps some people would not like to hear the answers.

[dunroaming]

So the circus continues and the can just get's kicked further down the road.  In October that road comes to an end and then we are on the cliff's edge.   In the meantime Davis threatens to resign and May backs down about an open ended backstop.  Johnson spouts off again about May not getting to grips with Brexit.  May can't get behind the Northern Irish Abortion changes because the DUP won't let her (even though she did half heartedly say reforms should be looked at).  Labour sees the latest reports that the British public are now leaning towards a softer Brexit and have changed tack to now go with a soft Brexit and still being in the single market.

 

Don't worry folks, we are in safe hands ? 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

In October that road comes to an end and then we are on the cliff's edge

What cliff edge ?

 

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

In the meantime Davis threatens to resign and May backs down about an open ended backstop.

May had no option, an open ended backstop was as good as staying in the EU.

 

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Johnson spouts off again about May not getting to grips with Brexit.

He is correct. Treeza the Apeezza has no intentions of getting to grips with Brexit, she is a remainer.

 

4 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

May can't get behind the Northern Irish Abortion changes because the DUP won't let her (even though she did half heartedly say reforms should be looked at). 

Take that up with the UK Supreme Court

 

Quote

Supreme Court rejects NI abortion law case

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150

 

6 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Labour sees the latest reports that the British public are now leaning towards a softer Brexit and have changed tack to now go with a soft Brexit and still being in the single market.

'' You cannot leave the EU and remain in the Single Market '' Michel Barnier.

 

http://www.cityam.com/275454/michel-barnier-there-no-middle-way-single-market-customs

 

[tebee]

We are heading for the cliff edge.

 

The point repeatedly needs to be made: March 29, 2019 the UK leaves the EU. Brexit completed. UK a "third country". All else is damage limitation and detail. One day a member; next day not. That changes everything.

[The Renegade]

Not sure Soros getting involved is a good move.

 

Quote

 An anti-Brexit group backed by billionaire financier George Soros launched a campaign on Friday targeting lawmakers, in an attempt to strengthen its call for a second referendum that could stop Britain’s exit from the European Union.

This is brilliant

 

Quote

The people instructed the government to negotiate a withdrawal from the EU, now the government owes people an answer: what terms have you got, are we going to be worse or better off?”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-soros/soros-backed-anti-brexit-group-targets-lawmakers-in-push-for-new-referendum-idUSKCN1J32VP?il=0

 

No they didn't. They voted to leave the EU. Nothing was mentioned on the ballot paper about negotiations, soft or hard boiled Brexit's, trade deals or any other strawmen that remainers have invented since the vote.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

We are heading for the cliff edge.

 

The point repeatedly needs to be made: March 29, 2019 the UK leaves the EU. Brexit completed. UK a "third country". All else is damage limitation and detail. One day a member; next day not. That changes everything.

Which one ?

 

Prawle Point, Devon

Old Harry Rocks, Dorset

Stonebarrow, Dorset

Brownsea Island, Dorset

White Cliffs of Dover, Kent

Blakeney, Norfolk

Whitehaven, Cumbria

Lindisfarne and Holy Island, Northumberland

 

You had best inform the terminally frightened what cliff they will have to head for.

 

 

[dunroaming]

53 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

What cliff edge ?

 

May had no option, an open ended backstop was as good as staying in the EU.

 

He is correct. Treeza the Apeezza has no intentions of getting to grips with Brexit, she is a remainer.

 

Take that up with the UK Supreme Court

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150

 

'' You cannot leave the EU and remain in the Single Market '' Michel Barnier.

 

http://www.cityam.com/275454/michel-barnier-there-no-middle-way-single-market-customs

 

"What Cliff Edge"

 

Phase II: April 2018 to late October 2018

Brussels: The goal for October 2018 is to finalize a withdrawal treaty governing the UK's departure from the EU as well as a political framework agreement covering the future relationship between the two entities. In order to achieve this goal in just six months, the British side will have to get involved in much more intensive and frequent negotiations than it has up till now. A joint declaration of principles of this kind would need to define the basis for subsequent trade talks, which would start in 2019.

"May had no option"

No she didn't so why would she propose it in the first place?  It took Davis to threaten to resign to change her mind.

"He is correct. Treeza the Apeezza has no intentions of getting to grips with Brexit, she is a remainer."

Then why would Johnson back her to be PM?  Johnson was a remainer (wrote articles in the Telegraph about how important it was to stay in) until he saw a chance to scupper Cameron.  Johnson is a disgrace.

"Take that up with the UK Supreme Court."

You totally miss the point.  May's hands are tied because of her desperate move to get into bed with the DUP.  What happens of any change to the law relating to abortions in Northern Ireland is irrelevant.  My point is that May is once again weakened by her terrible choices.

 

'' You cannot leave the EU and remain in the Single Market '' Michel Barnier.

Quite right, at least in it's current form.  However "a form" of single market, just like "a form of a customs union" has been bandied about for quite a while.  Which would be used during the transition period.

What is amusing is that what Barnier says is pretty much ignored by Davis as he keeps on singing from the same, completely de-bunked song sheet. 

 

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Phase II: April 2018 to late October 2018

Brussels: The goal for October 2018 is to finalize a withdrawal treaty governing the UK's departure from the EU as well as a political framework agreement covering the future relationship between the two entities. In order to achieve this goal in just six months, the British side will have to get involved in much more intensive and frequent negotiations than it has up till now. 

There does not have to be a withdrawal treaty.

 

29 March 2019 it is game over.

 

8 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

A joint declaration of principles of this kind would need to define the basis for subsequent trade talks, which would start in 2019.

 

Tell the EU tomorrow that WTO rules apply from 29 March 2019 and Trade talks will start in earnest next week.

 

Stop taking everything that the EU and Brussels utter as being gospel.

[tebee]

Comment from the Irish on the British negotiation style :

 

"It's the Wile E Coyote approach. Keep pumping your legs, you haven't passed the cliff edge yet. Sadly the UK is the most internationalised economy in Europe, non food independent (by a factor of 2), and the EU was life support, or you wouldn't have joined."

[Kwasaki]

28 minutes ago, tebee said:

We are heading for the cliff edge.

You may think that if you wish but that's just the kind of rhetoric that gets a country nowhere.

So you want to stay with the EU when it goes over the cliff edge.