49 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Nothing like the poverty half the population lived in before the EEC, you appear to be under some delusion that the EU brought them anything but the best times they have seen in 300 years.

Yes, we can see how happy everyone is in Europe today!

 

There has been a rise in living standards in many areas of the world in the last 50 years. They are not all in the EU. Get it?

Looking at it from afar I feel like shouting "jump"; like those cynical New Yorkers would do with suicide jumpers.

1 hour ago, ELVIS123456 said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6632462/how-project-fears-dire-warnings-about-the-dangers-of-brexit-havent-come-true-two-years-on-from-the-referendum/

 

DURING the EU referendum campaign, the Remain side pumped out a non-stop stream of blood-curdling warnings about what would happen if Brits voted to quit the EU. Their dire predictions about the economy, security and trade were intended to convince voters Brexit was too much of a risk to take a gamble on. But 52 per cent of the country ignored them and backed Leave in the historic poll which took place just over two years ago. And hindsight suggests they were right to discount many of the most chilling warnings - because as time has passed, they've been proven completely wrong.

 

Half a million Brits out of work  wrong

Tax hikes and budget cuts  wrong

Squeeze on the NHS  wrong

Economy in recession  wrong

52% voted to 'take our country back"  right

The Pound has dropped by 12% - Expats will complain right

Cost of getting the country back - priceless

 

Taking the country back? You are handing it over to a band of hedge fund billionaires and foreign corporate entities that are all vying for a slice of it as it battles to right itself.

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

To look on the bright side, at least we can have an intelligent conversation amongst ourselves - without the remainers endless obscurifcations!

endless what?

31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm talking about passing through legislation - not total agreement - the EU parliament passes just about everything.

 

The EU have been trying to patch up their own mess. 

 

Again, what evidence?

 

 

Yes, by the time it comes back to them they should be ready to pass it, there would really be no point in having a system where everyone is consulted all the time if those consultations didn't result in legislature that they wanted.

 

The EU has been trying to clean up the mess that is global banking, the likes of UKIP have been fighting for lowering restrictions on the very people who brought us the crash, its clear who has the good intentions and it is not the Leave brigade.

 

Admittedly, the evidence is circumstantial, however one would have to be very taken indeed not to at least be suspicious of two people who knew each other well and who simultaneously made moves that made one of them 220 million.

1 hour ago, ELVIS123456 said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6632462/how-project-fears-dire-warnings-about-the-dangers-of-brexit-havent-come-true-two-years-on-from-the-referendum/

 

DURING the EU referendum campaign, the Remain side pumped out a non-stop stream of blood-curdling warnings about what would happen if Brits voted to quit the EU. Their dire predictions about the economy, security and trade were intended to convince voters Brexit was too much of a risk to take a gamble on. But 52 per cent of the country ignored them and backed Leave in the historic poll which took place just over two years ago. And hindsight suggests they were right to discount many of the most chilling warnings - because as time has passed, they've been proven completely wrong.

 

Half a million Brits out of work  wrong

Tax hikes and budget cuts  wrong

Squeeze on the NHS  wrong

Economy in recession  wrong

52% voted to 'take our country back"  right

The Pound has dropped by 12% - Expats will complain right

Cost of getting the country back - priceless

 

If you're looking to The Sun for your facts on the UK economy I'm not surprised you're confused!

 

Firstly, the reason there wasn't a recession  after the vote is because the Pound fell so much, that made exports cheaper and lowered our cost of borrowing if that hadn't happened who knows what tax hikes might have been handed down!

 

Secondly, to suggest there were no budget cuts is disingenuous at the very least, even if budgets were held at previous levels, which they weren't, individuals were cut by the value of inflation.

 

A quote from the Independant: "Economists said that the Beast from the East was partially responsible for the disappointing figures but also identified underlying signs of weakness among households, stemming from the squeeze on incomes due to the slump in sterling in 2016 and also trepidation from businesses ahead of Brexit next year".

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economic-growth-latest-2018-q1-collapse-ons-office-national-statistics-figures-a8324906.html

 

What else, no squeeze on the NHS....really, I mean really!

 

Today, where we are, is businesses across the board are cutting back, Waitrose and John Lewis have just announced store closures today, the latest in a long list, plus the housing market has stalled because consumer confidence has stalled. On Friday the ONS reported that GDP growth has dropped to 0.1%, the lowest level since 2012. If your expectation was that the so called project fear items would take effect the day after the referendum, you've not understood how the economy works and as a Sun reader I should expect that of you!

 

 

13 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

endless what?

It's an anagram, a trick word, my vote is, OUR SCAB FICTIONS.

1 minute ago, simoh1490 said:

No squeeze on the NHS....really, I mean really!

The NHS has supposedly been squeezed for decades. It has not - It has been mismanaged for decades.

 

3 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Waitrose and John Lewis have just announced store closures today, the latest in a long list,

Yep, start wailing, a whole 5 stores are being closed -- The UK high street has been in decline for a long time and the biggest threat to it is internet shopping shopping and high rents.

 

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

On Friday the ONS reported that GDP growth has dropped to 0.1%, the lowest level since 2012.

Final GDP will be released on Friday, currently 0.1% - To put that into perspective, booming France has been already been confirmed at 0.2%

 

5 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

If your expectation was that the so called project fear items would take effect the day after the referendum,

Osborne said on many occasions pre - referendum, the results would be instantaneous if a vote was for leave.

 

But we have all seen how it actually played out.

 

Effects would be immediate on a Leave vote

 

Oh wait

 

Just wait until Article 50 is triggered

 

Oh wait

 

Just wait until we actually Leave.

 

Some people need to open their eyes, stop their whinging and stop trying to blame Brexit for everything.

54 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, we can see how happy everyone is in Europe today!

 

There has been a rise in living standards in many areas of the world in the last 50 years. They are not all in the EU. Get it?

 

No, not everyone is happy, but only the ignorant from those countries could believe that they are not better off now than they were before they joined and are better off staying in than suffering the economic consequence of leaving, that is all I was saying and I think you will find that is just fact.

 

Rising in living standards happen for reasons, those reasons can be attributed, take Greece for an example, they owe the EU for the first period of peace in hundreds of years, joining the UN or NATO didn't bring them peace, the EU is attributable to Greece's relative success.

Catch-22:

Any country with the requisite political intellect and cohesion necessary to effect a withdrawal from the European Union would never find itself in a position of attempting to do so.

From the remainers Bible - The Guardian

 

Quote

This week’s summit of European heads of government will be decisive because failure to reach agreement on how to manage the migration crisis could deal a fatal blow to the European project.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/27/migration-crisis-destroy-eu-collapse-schengen

 

Who says so ? None other than

 

Antonio Tajani the president of the European parliament

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Catch-22:

Any country with the requisite political intellect and cohesion necessary to effect a withdrawal from the European Union would never find itself in a position of attempting to do so.

tebee

 

Where do you dig up these little gems from ?

 

The withdrawal from the EU is actually pretty easy

 

Quote

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

In its simplest form, this means that all treaties cease to apply immediately on invoking A50 or 2 years later, or by an mutually agreed extension to the 2 year period.

 

In effect, what that means, is the UK could be free of the EU NOW.

 

What is actually happening is the EU are desperate to keep the UK shackled to the EU and the UK has a PM that is a remainer that does not want to leave the EU.

 

This is the problem.

3 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, not everyone is happy, but only the ignorant from those countries could believe that they are not better off now than they were before they joined and are better off staying in than suffering the economic consequence of leaving, that is all I was saying and I think you will find that is just fact.

 

Rising in living standards happen for reasons, those reasons can be attributed, take Greece for an example, they owe the EU for the first period of peace in hundreds of years, joining the UN or NATO didn't bring them peace, the EU is attributable to Greece's relative success.

As ever, there may more to be considered than just money, at least by many. By the way, the peace between Greece and Turkey followed on from a rash of earthquakes in both countries.. but the tremors within the EU are only just beginning. 

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

endless what?

Nonce?

6 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Which might just be about to get a lot bigger and a lot harder

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-csu/merkels-bavarian-ally-we-want-tighter-migrant-border-controls-next-week-idUSKBN1JN0N5?il=0

 

There is no EU wide solution - Where does this end up ?

No idea. Do you have a brilliant solution? An equitable one agreeable to both Germany and Italy?

 

To me, the key issue is processing asylum seekers rapidly and returning rejects promptly. Maybe have to set up camps on Mediterranean islands? So far, the U.K. border force does not seem up to the job. 

 

The Danes now stipulate that you must have basic fluency in Danish to avoid being kicked out after 3 months. The Thais should do the same. And the Spanish ?

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

To me, the key issue is processing asylum seekers rapidly and returning rejects promptly. Maybe have to set up camps on Mediterranean islands? So far, the U.K. border force does not seem up to the job. 

Do you have any particular Mediterranean islands in mind for this plan, I’m sure they will all cause a stampede to volunteer to become migrant screening hubs; I can just imagine how they could utilise that in their holiday brochures.

 

The 18-30 club island of Ibiza could well be appropriate, being as the bulk of asylum seekers seem to be young men in this age group.

4 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Yes, by the time it comes back to them they should be ready to pass it, there would really be no point in having a system where everyone is consulted all the time if those consultations didn't result in legislature that they wanted. 

 

The EU has been trying to clean up the mess that is global banking, the likes of UKIP have been fighting for lowering restrictions on the very people who brought us the crash, its clear who has the good intentions and it is not the Leave brigade.

 

Admittedly, the evidence is circumstantial, however one would have to be very taken indeed not to at least be suspicious of two people who knew each other well and who simultaneously made moves that made one of them 220 million.

Are you really saying that the EU Commission consults with the EU Parliament all the time on all legislation??   

 

The EU is lobbied and supported by the global banks.

 

There was no evidence - it was just a hopeful story - do you really think that no rich remainers made any money at the same time for the same reason? 

4 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do you have any particular Mediterranean islands in mind for this plan, I’m sure they will all cause a stampede to volunteer to become migrant screening hubs; I can just imagine how they could utilise that in their holiday brochures.

 

The 18-30 club island of Ibiza could well be appropriate, being as the bulk of asylum seekers seem to be young men in this age group.

Yes indeed, or Malta

Just now, Grouse said:

Yes indeed, or Malta

I'm sure the Maltese will be loving such a plan... What's not to love, right...?

39 minutes ago, jimmybkk said:

I'm sure the Maltese will be loving such a plan... What's not to love, right...?

Someone's going to get the short straw together with wheelbarrow loads of Euro.

Maybe Rhodes if you prefer?

Not to distract or deviate but to the poster who suggested the decline in the NHS is a long term issue and nothing to do with Brexit, I strongly disagree.

 

It has long been understood that the increase in elderly patient numbers would put a strain on the NHS, under other circumstances the NHS budget would have been increased to adjust for such strain thus the impact would have been negligible. But government spending has been constrained in recent years because of the need to reduce the budget deficit and as a result, all government departments have seen cuts in real terms and most of these are forecast to continue. Brexit has come along and compounded this problem by accelerating the rate of loss of foreign doctors and nurses thus creating a shortfall of care staff which has compounded already poor performance standards - the rate of NHS leavers now exceeds the rate of joiners. That rate of staff loss is caused by foreign NHS staff relocating in advance of Brexit and because of low incomes, both of which were avoidable had Brexit not been voted for.

 

Some might argue that the low incomes of NHS staff has nothing to do with Brexit and is mainly a function of an ageing population and a massive budget deficit. The point is that Brexit has magnified and exacerbated those already known problems which potentially were manageable on a budget exception basis, as indeed we are now beginning to see happen albeit much much later than was needed. The impact of Brexit on the NHS has therefore been massively negative and continues to be so, resulting in reduced care, loss of life and increased future taxes as a result.   

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-42653542

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2015/10/nhs-spending-squeezed-never

33 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Not to distract or deviate but to the poster who suggested the decline in the NHS is a long term issue and nothing to do with Brexit, I strongly disagree.

Disagree all you want.

 

Read and digest

 

Tony Blair 2000

 

Quote

Tony Blair has admitted the health service has fundamental problems and has promised more cash to rebuild it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/605962.stm

 

House of Commons 2005

 

Quote

notes that, despite unprecedented resources provided to the NHS, NHS trusts were over £600 million in deficit in 2004–05 and predicts deficits approaching £1 billion this year; 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2005-11-15c.833.1

 

Let me reiterate. The NHS is not underfunded, despite the annual hysterics over NHS underfunding. It has been badly mismanaged.

 

But keep up the hysterics, blame Brexit.

As the resident border and trade expert I immediately thought of you tebee, when I read this.

 

Quote

At stake is EU members’ unity and trust in each other, as well as the bloc’s Schengen zone of control-free travel. Unless a pan-EU solution is found, some countries are threatening to slap border checks to fish out migrants they do not want.

 

That would also hit business and travel across the bloc, threatening many jobs among the EU’s half a billion people.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-summit/under-pressure-from-populists-eu-doubles-down-on-curbing-migration-idUSKBN1JN3AP?il=0

 

Unless the EU extract their heads very quickly, all those things that you love, no borders, seamless trade and free movement is going to be dead.

 

And it will be nothing to do with Brexit.

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Disagree all you want.

 

Read and digest

 

Tony Blair 2000

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/605962.stm

 

House of Commons 2005

 

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2005-11-15c.833.1

 

Let me reiterate. The NHS is not underfunded, despite the annual hysterics over NHS underfunding. It has been badly mismanaged.

 

But keep up the hysterics, blame Brexit.

It is underfunded, we spend less per capita than all the more developed western nations - though I will admit the Tory privatization strategy has not helped.

 

  

Seems the remoaners can relax now as the Brexit is now law, has the Queens go ahead too...

The point I made seems to have been conveniently overlooked by some, let me reiterate:

 

"Brexit has come along and compounded this problem by accelerating the rate of loss of foreign doctors and nurses thus creating a shortfall of care staff which has compounded already poor performance standards - the rate of NHS leavers now exceeds the rate of joiners. That rate of staff loss is caused by foreign NHS staff relocating in advance of Brexit and because of low incomes, both of which were avoidable had Brexit not been voted for".

 

Whether or not the NHS is poorly managed or underfunded is not part of my argument although I strongly suspect it is both things, my argument relates to the state of the NHS in the current day rather than what it was eighteen years ago!

Just now, simoh1490 said:

Whether or not the NHS is poorly managed or underfunded is not part of my argument although I strongly suspect it is both things, my argument relates to the state of the NHS in the current day rather than what it was eighteen years ago!

I know.

 

And you can blame Labour for that.

 

They piled PFI into the NHS. Still repaying that today is one of the biggest problems the NHS has.

 

But you previously worked for the NHS and are going to tell me different. right ??

1 minute ago, transam said:

Seems the remoaners can relax now as the Brexit is now law, has the Queens go ahead too...

Indeed Sir Trans, that is the case, in future years we can all sit back, safe in the knowledge that what is happening around us was as a conscious result of the will of the people and not some cock-up by the government. I do like the line in the Jack Reacher movie, "remember, you wanted this". arf arf!

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

It is underfunded, we spend less per capita than all the more developed western nations - though I will admit the Tory privatization strategy has not helped.

tebee

 

I am trying to be gentle here.

 

There is no equivalent to the NHS throughout any other developed western nation.

 

There is no comparison.

9 hours ago, nauseus said:

Are you really saying that the EU Commission consults with the EU Parliament all the time on all legislation??   

 

The EU is lobbied and supported by the global banks.

 

There was no evidence - it was just a hopeful story - do you really think that no rich remainers made any money at the same time for the same reason? 

 

Yes, the commission is bound to consult parliament, they exchange their publications, the parliament make proposals in the way of publications that they pass to the commission who then draft legislation which they then pass back to parliament to amend before passing back again and so on until it is complete and given to parliament to vote on.  The constitution demands that they work closely together.

 

Anyone can lobby anyone, that does not mean they will always get what they want.  UKIP MEP's hadn't all turned up to vote in months, until the EU voted on putting restrictions on the financial sector in order to prevent future crashes, and suddenly there they all were, suddenly UKIP had an interest in politics and all showed up to vote against protecting the people from the bankers.  Vote traitor UKIP.

 

If you think that the two of them knowing each other so well, one of them funding the other, is just a coincidence and comparable to a random stranger who also happened to make money that same day then you are taken.