Will a transformer help me?

[tattoodrob]

I have an AVR which has helped a  bit with lights dimming  when people in the house turn on shower,air cons etc ,actually i changed to a central boiling system too to help as have many showers but i still have problems.....by the way i dont have 3 phase right now.......so when i have a lot of guests at weekends then they all put there air cons on and then we have microwave,lights,kettles etc used together so often it is  loaded at 80 amps on my avr but will trip my rcd breaker quite often when they have all on.......so i guess load goes well over 90 or 100 amps and so system rightly shuts down......now my question is will a transformer help or is it just  a case of when everything is on together then will still trip even if i actually buy a transformer so will it  be a waste of money?...i have enough electric supply for my normal, use but in future i may have more days with more guests who tend to shower at same times and put many lights(led) on and air cons(can be 6+ on at same time plus other  stuff) etc so what will help me stop this happening again........i am not electrically knowledged so keep it simple thanks and if its jut a case of making sure they dont have everything thing on together then i will try .....not easy to get them to do that...but if there is something else i can do then please advise.Thanks

Edited February 28, 2018 by tattoodrob
corrected grammar a bit

[Crossy]

Are your water heaters on the regulated (output) side of the AVR? If yes, move them to the unregulated side, they will heat more slowly but will reduce your amperage load.

 

What size meter and incoming breaker do you have?

 

Is there 3-phase at the road?

 

[tattoodrob]

There is 3 phase i think but divided up so only 1 phase shared for some houses and another line/phase for others  so basically they wont let me have 3 phase even if there is...he explained it to my thai wife and that is how she explained it to me........they are scared i will use most electric and other houses around then have little!! You may remember we talked before here about AVR etc and i told what i have then and pics....1 phase 45 amp i think ........i connected 3 of my bathrooms to a largish water boiler and so 2 bedrooms still have water heater boxes in there rooms. Not easy for me to connect main to water heater boxes and only 1 used by them when trips but boiler will kick in when they shower as hot water used so it sort of helps but doesnt when many shower...i could turn off the boiler when they shower i guess and turn on after they finished so is hot again for next time they shower ,the boiler does seem to take abput 20 amps when heating from fresh water.

AVR is connected where power comes in to house then goes through RCD then to fuse panel box..the rcd trips when high amps used.I sort of understand that but just not sure if buying a Transformer would help me at all or need bigger wires.... i dont want rewire the wholehouse just because 1 or 2 hours at weekend it trips  due to high usage(amps).......thanks

 

 

[Crossy]

In order to stop your supply being overloaded you need to either:-

 

Option 1- Reduce the peak load.

OR

Option 2 - Get a bigger supply.

 

Option 1

By far the cheapest option is simply to ask your guests to stagger their shower timings and kill the aircon when they're in the shower.

 

You or (I suggest) your sparks should be able to move the water heaters to the incoming side of the AVR. If everything has been wired up correctly with individual breakers for the heaters this ought to be reasonably low cost, this will of course require some re-wiring and possibly a second (small) breaker box. With the heaters on the incoming side of the AVR it won't be trying to maintain 220V to those heaters. That may well be sufficient to stop your tripping, it will certainly reduce the stress on your AVR. Have a read of my pinned thread on installing an AVR.

 

Option 2

Visit PEA and ask if they can do you a 30/100 supply. You'll need a new incoming breaker and possibly new wires from the meter to your home. You may still need to move the heaters to the incoming side of the AVR as, (unless it's a very big one) you'll be overloading that.

 

If there is 220V 3-phase at the pole (4 wires on small insulators) there is no real reason that PEA won't supply 3-phase. BUT you will need to do some fairly hefty re-wiring to take advantage of that.

 

Shelling for a transformer will also give you a bigger supply (and a much bigger bill for the work). You'll still need the new incoming breaker, wires to the street. This could be an option if you can't get a 30/100 supply.

 

EDIT I sincerely hope there is a breaker between the input of the AVR and the incoming supply. If there is not, do not use that sparks again.

 

Post some photos of what you have for a clearer picture of the way forwards.

 

 

[tattoodrob]

Ok i have attached pics...i do have breaker before AVR (sorry i may have said opposite before) and that is the one that trips when system overloaded. The showers are not the main problem now as 3 are supplied by one boiler system and one other is not that is being used by guests and one more shower is one i use but i wont use that when system overloaded so is only one worth re routing the wires to before avr so i dont think that will make a big difference and im pretty sure each water heater box did not have its own breaker but i may be wrong,i cant read Thai and so cannot read what sparky wrote on the fuse box.

I could probably get the boiler supply moved to before the AVR if you think that will help....but i could just turn off the boiler when they arrive and turn on again after showered and load down to reasonable level..like when they are all asleep.

 

We have asked the PEA many times for help and will not give us any other supply to what we have,i attach pic of supply wires on the road,looks like 3 big wires...i have been told 350k baht up for a transformer which is a lot especially if doesnt help me much with my overload......yes best idea is my guests dont all stay in the rooms at same time and shower etc same time,problem is im not always there,they dont always listen and sometimes they cooking too while others in room with air con/showering/tv etc so hard to organise that they dont do stuff at same time.......can be 12 or more guests in 4 of my bedrooms !!!! ..so some downstairs with air con on or cooking etc while others in there bedrooms and so i dont want to spend loads of money if not going to clear this problem and so then i will just have to be more strict,they all arrive at same time so thats why all seems to happen as all want shower and put air con on when arrive etc..when they all go to bed and igot just 5 aircons on then amps load is down to around 40 to 60 amps on my avr......but when showering etc then my avr is buzzing.....have water pump load,pool pump load(minimal),microwave,hob,fans,tv,kettle etc that could all be on plus obviously when they shower then my boiler has to start up again to reheat the water in boiler they just all used and i think thats using about 20 amps..maybe i can turn off the boiler when they start to shower so that doesnt add another 20 amps on load but water will be cold for last showerers but maybe i put it on again after all finished so hot again for morning showers,that may save it tripping but when they all over the house with lights on too etc then my load is constantly high and this is why i got a boiler for 3 showers(couldnt add the 4th shower to it as my hot water pipe already blocked and would have to rip out tiles to do that!) and when they all showered at same time before then would trip more often.........maybe i just have to get them not turn on so much at same time but hard because even they and i dont know who or what is being used as all in different areas of the house but i guess i could tell to keep off air con downstairs when people showering or mostly in rooms upstairs.

Thai like to turn everything on i see,i can come home and every single light in my house can be on even when not even dark!!!! i have a lot of lights,i change 80% of my normal bulbs to led to help and that was about 70 bulbs changed.

So what do you think?...i cannot get any more better supply to my house unless is a transformer..is it going to help a lot if i buy? do i have to rewire house ? do i have to get new fusebox etc etc? .......is it dangerous now when load is around 80 amps or so for a few hours..........one time we had a dj come and big speakers etc and amps meter would move a lot to sounds of the bass speakers ..they must have used a lot!..i had no aircons on during this party or would have  tripped sure.Thanks for any help/advice.

Edited March 1, 2018 by tattoodrob
corrected grammar a bit

[bankruatsteve]

What size is the breaker that trips?  The one you say is before the AVR.

[RichCor]

11 hours ago, Crossy said:

In order to stop your supply being overloaded you need to either:-

Option 1- Reduce the peak load.

OR

Option 2 - Get a bigger supply.

 

A 3rd Option might be to have a 'Power Wall' and bank power for peak-demand. Though, I don't know anyone doing those here in Thailand.

 

Wikipedia: Tesla Powerwall

 

TESLA POWERWALL 2.0 FOR ENERGY STORAGE AND DEMAND REDUCTION
Posted by Willem Post on July 24, 2017 at 10:00am

 

Can Powerwall be configured to reduce demand charges?
Submitted by tes-s on November 10, 2017

[Crossy]

That looks like a 3-phase board that's probably been wired for single-phase (a photo with the lid off can confirm). So at least if you can get 3-phase you likely won't be having major re-wiring issues. Evidently the builder thought that 3-phase would be needed.

 

You have a HUGE load to be subjecting a 15/45 to. If you can't (or won't) do something about the peak demand then ...

 

Is it 100% certain you cannot get a 15/45 3-phase supply? Or, maybe a 30/100 single-phase? A little "lubrication" may help.

 

Failing the above then a transformer is going to be your only way forwards I'm afraid = $$$

 

I would still be looking at the potential solutions of :-

1. Moving the water heating to the unregulated side. I know you don't think it will make much difference but it's a cheap option which may just do the trick.
2. Consider gas cooking (if you are not already).
3. Possibly also gas water heating.
4. All low-energy lighting, every little helps.
5. Time the pool for quiet guest times.

None of this is going to be cheap

 

We have a 15/45 and our home is a lot less power-hungry and we are close to the village transformer. Even so one A/C and a 6kW water heater pulls the supply below 200V on a good day (water heater is on the unregulated power, the consequences of it being on regulated power were really scary).

 

This is our current/voltage plot for Wednesday, some scary dips in the supply even though we never exceed the "capabilities" of our 15/45. I'm sure yours is rather less nice  The big peaks are the water heater.

 

 

 

[tattoodrob]

Thanks for replies...i think Builder/Electrician was hoping that i would get 3 phase one day as did i(hoped) so thats why the 3 phase box,sparky was trying to help but knew i only had one phase as spoke to PEA before sparky worked.

We cannot "lubricate" them,tried a few times......they scared give me more power and less for others,the nearest transformer is a tiny cylindrical shaped one and looks 20 years old....and many new houses been built where i am but all share from same transformer.

I may try getting boiler re wired but easier i just turn it off and tough luck on the last showerers as hot water will run out.

I looked into gas showers but was put off due to safety(people said not safe) and i got a 2 storey house so a pain to change from electric to gas and so gas box would have to be in roof or outside and high up or ugly pipes put in all around house from ground level to make ease of replacing gas bottle.....wife doesnt like gas for cooking ( i do) as worried about gas and we already have a built in electric hob..i may buy an extra outdoor gas hob for the Thai guests to use and hide the microwave !!

I see the pool pump uses very little but every little may help.

I think i will just try being more strict somehow as cant really afford to buy a transformer just for the times they are all here and showering etc...thanks all.

 

 

 

 

[RichCor]

11 minutes ago, tattoodrob said:

I may try getting boiler re wired but easier i just turn it off and tough luck on the last showerers as hot water will run out.

You could put a timer on it, and only have it powered up during known non-demand hours.

 

You may also see if you and your neighbors can prod PEA into upgrading your transformer. Sounds like it's undersized and not meeting current demand and definitely not capable of handling future demand of new housing being added on.

 

Some PEA offices either don't have a budget or don't want to waste their budget on upgrades. But if enough neighbors complain about brown-outs it might create issue to move the internal office discussion from deferred maintenance onto future planning for replacement/upgrade.

[tattoodrob]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

You could put a timer on it, and only have it powered up during known non-demand hours.

 

You may also see if you and your neighbors can prod PEA into upgrading your transformer. Sounds like it's undersized and not meeting current demand and definitely not capable of handling future demand of new housing being added on.

 

Some PEA offices either don't have a budget or don't want to waste their budget on upgrades. But if enough neighbors complain about brown-outs it might create issue to move the internal office discussion from deferred maintenance onto future planning for replacement/upgrade.

I will just switch off in fusebox when necessary,no need for a timer as is only 1 day a week or every couple of weeks and i was informed on this forum before that uses more electric when switch on and off instead of leaving on all the time .

Yes may be a good idea to get neighbours to complain too but they dont have the same problem and im happy with supply in normal use,its just i get some abnormal use due to vistors so im not sure they would help complain and some Thai neighbours are real old style and only have tv and fans (no air cons etc)and some of the farang have there own transformers already or smaller houses so no real problems for them.

I was told 6 years ago by PEA that they may upgrade this area soon...6 years ago!!! and when my wife asked about that recently they said no budget etc...they obviously want people to buy there own transformers.

Maybe i ask a new neighbour(building new house and buying a transformer) and see if can go 50/50 with him and have supplied here also,not sure how it works when people buy a transformer and give to PEA to use rather than buying just for themselves use only,i heard was cheaper to buy when not put on your own property.......and i guess only new housing can use it after, otherwise everyone would like to attach to it when see a new one appear.......and im guessing then that the PEA charge a nice fee to attach new builds to the recent transformer paid by an individual.

Edited March 1, 2018 by tattoodrob
spelling

[Wirejerker]

Option # Separate all the circuits you don’t use on a daily basis and install a generator and a change over switch. Normal day to day switch to PEA then when the guests arrive and the load builds start the gen set and switch those circuits to it.
Best way forward is gas and I’m sure if you put more time into exploring the possibility you will be able to circumvent all your objections to gas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tattoodrob]

Hmm..not a bad idea...a generator...Noisy? expensive? can only run a couple of AC on it at a time right?

Some problems with that: im not always at the house when they open everything so would need to be there to start the generator!..maybe is a bit loud ?

Problem is not just the showers as changing to a boiler sort of helps that initial problem of many showering at same time before ,the problem is they open everything so maybe even them cooking with all the  air cons on or hairdryer or 4 tvs etc.....so even without showering they are over loading......they would have 7 air cons on for a start then all lights,maybe some fans, a few tvs...it only takes a shower or microwave etc to push it over the edge and trip so maybe gas would help on the shower side of things but easier to turn off the boiler till when they sleep!! but they still run at 80 plus amps so really if i could get a couple of air con units covered with a generator then may help......i already bought the boiler and all the piping already and so changing 4 or 5 showers to gas seems like a pain..especially as most showers are on the second floor,and that it may only help a little bit.

Thanks for your input.

[tattoodrob]

The PEA now said maybe i can have a 1phase transformer(22kv),will this help with the running of all my electrical equipment at same time or will still trip out?..also if i get it can i use it for other buildings as plan on building some houses on land behind my house.

[Crossy]

A 22 kVA transformer will give you a 100A supply.

 

This will certainly reduce and voltage droop when your load goes on so it may be a good way forwards.

BUT

You will have to re-configure your AVR (assuming you want to keep it in circuit) as asking a 20kVA AVR to run continuously at near it's ratings really is asking a lot.

 

An idea (and I wonder why I didn't think of it before) since you have a 3-phase panel. 

1. Identify which breakers operate non-essential items (like the water heaters).
2. Move all those breakers on to one "phase" in your 3-phase panel.
3. Adjust the wiring so that that "phase" is fed from the supply before the AVR leaving the essential stuff still on the regulated supply.

Cost of the above is minimal, no hardware to buy. It may even be enough to mean that you don't need to get the transformer. So I would be trying that before shelling any $$$ with PEA particularly as it's only an "occasional" issue.

 

[tattoodrob]

If i have the transformer then i guess i dont need the AVR anyway or not? as i only bought it to help me with my problem as was cheapest way to help but only helped minimally anyway.

If i buy the transformer then can it supply my house and 4 houses behind mine if i link up or still not enough for all 4?

i dont quite understand how the rewiring  you mentioned will help as before i had AVR i had the problem and  only have one phase still and so you think just use the avr for  air cons will help or you mean aircons wired before avr will help me,the main problem i have is could be 6 or 7 air cons on then they add other stuff like lights,cooking etc which then trips it out and this happens now and before i had avr.

 

[Crossy]

OK Rob.

 

Since you are likely going to be spending $$$ let's do this properly.

 

Can you list out your major loads in each property.

That is to say:-

1. Water heaters (including wattage)
2. Aircon (including BTU rating)
3. Electric cooking equipment (oven, stove top, induction cooker)

I'll do a quick prospective load calculation so we can get an idea if your problems will be solved.

 

I suspect that even with a 22kVA transformer you will be near the line, any plans for more load?

 

Is there any possibility of getting a second 15/45 meter installed? Some PEA offices will do that, others insist on only one meter per Chanote.

 

Can you also post a photo of the power pole where your meter lives, make sure you include all the wires at the top.

[Crossy]

For my suggested re-wire see if you can easily arrange:-

 

Unregulated "phase"

• Water heaters/showers.
• Oven and hob.

 

Regulated "phases"

• Aircon
• Everything else.

 

I'm still unclear in my mind how the main house and "4 houses behind" are arranged on the current power supply. You seem to have a significant load distributed over several dwellings.

 

[tattoodrob]

the 4 houses are just an idea,not linked to electric now but was just thinking if i buy the transformer then could i link it to mine and the 4 planned houses or better they just have own 1 phase supply,will each have 4 aircons,big water heater boiler for showers,hob ,some maybe oven.

[tattoodrob]

9 hours ago, Crossy said:

OK Rob.

 

Since you are likely going to be spending $$$ let's do this properly.

 

Can you list out your major loads in each property.

That is to say:-

1. Water heaters (including wattage)
2. Aircon (including BTU rating)
3. Electric cooking equipment (oven, stove top, induction cooker)

I'll do a quick prospective load calculation so we can get an idea if your problems will be solved.

 

I suspect that even with a 22kVA transformer you will be near the line, any plans for more load?

 

Is there any possibility of getting a second 15/45 meter installed? Some PEA offices will do that, others insist on only one meter per Chanote.

 

Can you also post a photo of the power pole where your meter lives, make sure you include all the wires at the top.

asked if can have another meter..answer NO

[Crossy]

It was worth asking about the meter.

 

For your potential 4 extra houses. Each home would need a 15/45 of it's own, diversity would mean that you wouldn't need a 180A of extra supply but expecting a 100A single-phase transformer to supply your place plus 4 extras is really asking a lot. You really need a professional designer but I would be thinking at least a 50kVA 3-phase transformer would be needed for that size development.

 

I do still encourage you to try moving heating appliances (including your electric stove) to the unregulated supply. It may only save a few amps (about 3A at 6kW) but that may be enough to reduce / eliminate your breaker opening and for you to put off shelling for a transformer.

 

It is of course, entrirely up to you.