UK's May says 'highly likely' Russia behind nerve attack on spy

[evadgib]

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/salisbury-attack-joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-france-germany-the-united-states-and-the-united-kingdom

[CharlesSwann]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

The knife in your kitchen drawer must be good to exceed 8x the lethality of VX! Where did you get it?

Big C. It's a good knife. I can well imagine that in the right hands it could potentially kill a very large number of people. Far easier to deploy than nerve agent - and I don't think Big C sells that stuff.

[juice777]

I think all Govt's should take a massive step back..I also think that the UK Govt should invite Russian scientists to come and work with the UK authorities to get to the bottom of this matter.
Remember war criminal Blair and his "weapons of mass destruction" etc etc
I hope that there is money trail somewhere..'cos it can easily be traced back to source.
Remember we are only getting perhaps a " doctored" version of events by such news outlets as the BRUSSELS BROADCASTING CORPORATION.


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You can't compaire the lies told by 1 government to get us to back the Americans in the war against Iraq . There was a clear agenda and lots to gain form Having a war with Iraq. There is nothing good to come from this for us. There is no reason to make this up will we have nothing to gain from fabricating this. War with Russia would be suicide, going after the Russian money in London would leave a big whole in the Economy and risk losing the gas we buy from Russia. Please explain what the UK government and May would get from making this up what's there End game what are they going to get out of it. And do you really trust Putin and the Kremlin over our government.

By the way this is coming form someone who hates Theresa May and Tony Blair and went on the march against the gulf war all those years ago.

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[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, juice777 said:

You can't compaire the lies told by 1 government to get us to back the Americans in the war against Iraq . There was a clear agenda and lots to gain form Having a war with Iraq. There is nothing good to come from this for us. There is no reason to make this up will we have nothing to gain from fabricating this. War with Russia would be suicide, going after the Russian money in London would leave a big whole in the Economy and risk losing the gas we buy from Russia. Please explain what the UK government and May would get from making this up what's there End game what are they going to get out of it. And do you really trust Putin and the Kremlin over our government.

By the way this is coming form someone who hates Theresa May and Tony Blair and went on the march against the gulf war all those years ago.

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Last week TM was the worst PM in living memory, yesterday she was fist-bumping adoring crowds. Maybe she sees this as her Maggie moment, a show strength to dispel the doubts of the critics.

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/novichok-nerve-agent-use-in-salisbury-uk-government-response

[CharlesSwann]

Russia will retaliate of course. Nothing achieved except tension and distrust. Britain should have buried this issue quietly. All the bluster is a classic case of political idiocy fuelled by pride and media sensationalism - at one time that got us into the ridiculous Crimean War. It seems wisdom is never learned.

[juice777]

Last week TM was the worst PM in living memory, yesterday she was fist-bumping adoring crowds. Maybe she sees this as her Maggie moment, a show strength to dispel the doubts of the critics.

She still is the worst prime minister in living memory don't mean she is going to make this up. Are people actually suggesting the British government used nerve gas on there own people?



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[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, juice777 said:

She still is the worst prime minister in living memory don't mean she is going to make this up.
 

You asked:

 

11 hours ago, juice777 said:

Please explain what the UK government and May would get from making this up

I merely offer a suggestion in response. Obviously I know no more than any other layman.

 

6 minutes ago, juice777 said:

Are people actually suggesting the British government used nerve gas on there own people?

I would have absolutely no hesitation in believing that, if it was expedient to the government, they would do so. Not simply the UK, I might add, I am certain that every government around the world would also commit covert crimes against their own people if there was political advantage to be had.

 

Ask yourself this - why did TM 'lose' 114 dossiers on child abuse allegedy carried out by ministers, royalty and our country's ruling elite. Now I do not believe that she secretly supports chid abuse, but I believe that she was willing to protect the abusers in order to ensure the stability of her government. Not quite nerve agent, but if true, hardly the actions of a government protecting its people.

[juice777]

I would have absolutely no hesitation in believing that, if it was expedient to the government, they would do so. Not simply the UK, I might add, I am certain that every government around the world would also commit covert crimes against their own people if there was political advantage to be had.
 
Ask yourself this - why did TM 'lose' 114 dossiers on child abuse allegedy carried out by ministers, royalty and our country's ruling elite. Now I do not believe that she secretly supports chid abuse, but I believe that she was willing to protect the abusers in order to ensure the stability of her government. Not quite nerve agent, but if true, hardly the actions of a government protecting its people.

If you are saying that TM made this whole thing up 2 strengthen her position as prime minister is truly laughable. The UK government and TM has come out of looking weak as anything there is nothing worth while we can do against Russia without hurting ourselves more at least without the rest of nato doing the same. So got any other reasons why the UK government and TM would make this up as I keep saying there is nothing for us to gain from this I cannot even see a possible motive. Chucking 23 Russians out of the country who was probably Russian intelligence and the Russians doing tick for tact is hardly a Maggie moment lol. She's proven herself to be even weaker then we thought. Are you suggesting she would plan a nerve gas attack on her own people to strengthen her own position then follow it up with a half ass measure like that. Please think your crack pot Conspiracy Theory's through properly.

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[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, juice777 said:

If you are saying that TM made this whole thing up 2 strengthen her position as prime minister is truly laughable. The UK government and TM has come out of looking weak as anything there is nothing worth while we can do against Russia without hurting ourselves more at least without the rest of nato doing the same. So got any other reasons why the UK government and TM would make this up as I keep saying there is nothing for us to gain from this I cannot even see a possible motive. Chucking 23 Russians out of the country who was probably Russian intelligence and the Russians doing tick for tact is hardly a Maggie moment lol. She's proven herself to be even weaker then we thought. Are you suggesting she would plan a nerve gas attack on her own people to strengthen her own position then follow it up with a half ass measure like that. Please think your crack pot Conspiracy Theory's through properly.

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I think you are strugging to understand the difference between fact and hypothesis.

 

You asked why she MIGHT do it, with the implication that she had nothing to gain. I used my imagination to suggest that some strategist might have come up with a rationale for taking such a course. I certainly never said that I believed it to be fact, and further acknowledged that my awareness of the situation is no greater than anyone else's.

 

As for how the events rolled out, I don't think anyone deliberately plans for failure - but it happens now and again..

 

As you say, you can see nothing to gain from the UK doing this. That is more a statement about your lack of imagination and seeming unwillingness to challenge the official narrative.

 

So I will ask once again - how can a home secretary lose so many key documents that implicate her colleagues in the most heinous of crimes? Do you really think that it was a mistake?

Edited March 16, 2018 by RuamRudy

[juice777]

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are strugging to understand the difference between fact and hypothesis.   You asked why she MIGHT do it, with the implication that she had nothing to gain. I used my imagination to suggest that some strategist might have come up with a rationale for taking such a course. I certainly never said that I believed it to be fact, and further acknowledged that my awareness of the situation is no greater than anyone else's.

 

As for how the events rolled out, I don't think anyone deliberately plans for failure - but it happens now and again..

 

As you say, you can see nothing to gain from the UK doing this. That is more a statement about your lack of imagination and seeming unwillingness to challenge the official narrative.

 

So I will ask once again - how can a home secretary lose so many key documents that implicate her colleagues in the most heinous of crimes? Do you really think that it was a mistake?

 

 

"You asked why she MIGHT do it, with the implication that she had nothing to gain. I used my imagination to suggest that some strategist might have come up with a rationale for taking such a course. I certainly never said that I believed it to be fact, and further acknowledged that my awareness of the situation is no greater than anyone else's." 

Then if that's all you can come up with there can't be a good reason especially if you don't even think your example is true.

 

"the UK doing this. That is more a statement about your lack of imagination and seeming unwillingness to challenge the official narrative."

 

Believe mate I really don't lack from of imagination on things like this but on this occasion I am certain it's the Russians as hard as it is for me to agree with a government I despise and don't trust. I do this time even if I think there responses is pathetic.And I think I challenge the official narrative quite often just not on this occasion.

 

"As for how the events rolled out, I don't think anyone deliberately plans for failure - but it happens now and again.."

 

But with there pathetic response it was always going to be failure so there was no plan in place. I am just confused now with what you are saying you say no one deliberately plans for failure as if it was a Conspiracy (I think that is what you are saying) but don't have a motvie only a suggestion what other people might say.

 

"So I will ask once again - how can a home secretary lose so many key documents that implicate her colleagues in the most heinous of crimes? Do you really think that it was a mistake?"

 

Unfortunately I don't really know enough about it to tell the truth I wouldn't put it pass them to cover up crimes of previous politicians as it makes there party look bad but there is a clear motive there. But I wouldn't suggest that the UK government would nerve gas there own citizens especially when I can't see any credible reason.

 

Unfortunately in this day and age thanks to fake news/ Info war's /nonsense click bait videos on YouTube etc people are looking for a Conspiracy Theory in Everything. Also it seems like no one can agree with a person or government sometimes and disagree other times. It seems like the line in the sand is drawn you have to pick a side and start shouting and ignore facts if those facts favour a person you dislike. It's not about the right argument it's about the right person saying it.

 

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[vogie]

On 13/03/2018 at 12:16 PM, Orac said:

 

The aim is to destablise UK govt which is possibly why it is so obvious.  Wouldn't surprise me if TM finds herself in the unenviable position of pulling England out of the World Cup which, in an already divided country, would create further discord.

Englands football team is quite capable of removing themselves from the competition without any interference from May.

Edited March 16, 2018 by vogie

[Orac]

Englands football team is quite capable of removing themselves from the competition without any interference from May.

Good point - could save us the embarrassment and let us claim a ‘moral’ victory.

All joking aside, though the words from TM sound tough and, politically, Corbyn has shown himself to be very weak on this subject, but the actual measures taken so far have been pretty feeble. The expulsion of 23 diplomats is just window dressing and will be matched by Russia and telling them we won’t be sending any royalty to the World Cup is hardly going to bother them after what they did to their own. By saying the the decision on RT is down to OFCOM was ridiculous given the wording she used to describe what is claimed happened and which is the language required to trigger NATO Art 5 for joint retaliation.


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[sambum]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Englands football team is quite capable of removing themselves from the competition without any interference from May.

Yes, as I said in an earlier post, " they won't be there for long anyway!" 

 

I remember someone bragging on a TV programme years ago about the English Premier League being the best league in the World, and one of the pundits replied (quite rightly) "That's because it's full of b@#$%y foreigners!

[Thongkorn]

7 hours ago, CharlesSwann said:

Russia will retaliate of course. Nothing achieved except tension and distrust. Britain should have buried this issue quietly. All the bluster is a classic case of political idiocy fuelled by pride and media sensationalism - at one time that got us into the ridiculous Crimean War. It seems wisdom is never learned.

It’s ok then if some foreign National comes in your back garden and kill one of your family then , would you just forget it. Would your wisdom learn anything. And don’t forget this is the third case know of. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Thongkorn

[CharlesSwann]

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

It’s ok then if some foreign National comes in your back garden and kill one of your family then , would you just forget it. Would your wisdom learn anything. And don’t forget this is the third case know of. 

Let's just say it's understandable to the sophisticated. It's almost a quaint tradition for the Russians - they have been doing this since Trotsky's ice-pick in Mexico. I doubt the Mexicans even shrugged. 

 

And they're not family or even my compatriots - this was Russian on Russian. If he came over to our side, that's his decision - he knows the risks - and I don't think the British taxpayer should be lumbered with paying to protect him every minute of the day, or stir up international tension in an already tense world if the Russians happen to exact their version of justice. Maintaining calm and stability is of paramount importance because little things can escalate, as history shows us. This event is not important enough to fuss over. I say everyone should put away their pocket outrage.

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Last week TM was the worst PM in living memory, yesterday she was fist-bumping adoring crowds. Maybe she sees this as her Maggie moment, a show strength to dispel the doubts of the critics.

A la Falklands. Just rejoice!

[chickenslegs]

16 minutes ago, CharlesSwann said:

this was Russian on Russian.

... apart from the small matter of a British copper, and the potential to harm many more British citizens.

[juice777]

 

 

 

Let's just say it's understandable to the sophisticated. It's almost a quaint tradition for the Russians - they have been doing this since Trotsky's ice-pick in Mexico. I doubt the Mexicans even shrugged. 

 

And they're not family or even my compatriots - this was Russian on Russian. If he came over to our side, that's his decision - he knows the risks - and I don't think the British taxpayer should be lumbered with paying to protect him every minute of the day, or stir up international tension in an already tense world if the Russians happen to exact their version of justice. Maintaining calm and stability is of paramount importance because little things can escalate, as history shows us. This event is not important enough to fuss over. I say everyone should put away their pocket outrage.

 

It's not important enough to fuss over are you mad?

 

I am not so sure if people have a problem with Russia killing a ex spy I think a lot of people would have the attitude it's all in the game including me actually.

 

As a lot of people say all countries secret services have probley murderd people abroad. However using nerve gas on British soil is what's the the main issue is here it put normal inconce British lifes at risk and a police man still might Die.Not to mention it could terrify some people.

 

Also its Russia saying look at you your nothing we can do what we like we are Russia you can't touch us. If we don't do nothing it could happen again and next time British people could actually Die if they still don't.

 

 

 

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[CharlesSwann]

2 hours ago, juice777 said:

 

 

It's not important enough to fuss over are you mad?

 

I am not so sure if people have a problem with Russia killing a ex spy I think a lot of people would have the attitude it's all in the game including me actually.

 

As a lot of people say all countries secret services have probley murderd people abroad. However using nerve gas on British soil is what's the the main issue is here it put normal inconce British lifes at risk and a police man still might Die.Not to mention it could terrify some people.

 

Also its Russia saying look at you your nothing we can do what we like we are Russia you can't touch us. If we don't do nothing it could happen again and next time British people could actually Die if they still don't.

 

 

I think your post affords the most convincing proof that this whole issue is fuelled merely by pique, neuroticism and insecurity, and appeals mainly to the astonishment of the credulous. Attempts to persuade me using that line of reasoning are worthless.

The far bigger issue at stake is world peace and the comity of nations, and the degree to which everyone is willing to jeopardise that on account of the pique, neuroticism and insecurity stirred up by a sideshow of the espionage industry - no more than a bit of guignol - is more than commonly worrying.

[StreetCowboy]

3 hours ago, CharlesSwann said:

Let's just say it's understandable to the sophisticated. It's almost a quaint tradition for the Russians - they have been doing this since Trotsky's ice-pick in Mexico. I doubt the Mexicans even shrugged. 

 

And they're not family or even my compatriots - this was Russian on Russian. If he came over to our side, that's his decision - he knows the risks - and I don't think the British taxpayer should be lumbered with paying to protect him every minute of the day, or stir up international tension in an already tense world if the Russians happen to exact their version of justice. Maintaining calm and stability is of paramount importance because little things can escalate, as history shows us. This event is not important enough to fuss over. I say everyone should put away their pocket outrage.

Please can you make it clear which cases of murder on British soil we should be concerned about, and those we should not?  Which employees of MI5 or MI6 deserve our protection within the law, and which do not?   

[CharlesSwann]

12 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Please can you make it clear which cases of murder on British soil we should be concerned about, and those we should not?  Which employees of MI5 or MI6 deserve our protection within the law, and which do not?   

You all seem unusually attached to 'British soil'. Last time I was on British soil, I felt thoroughly alientated on hearing fewer English accents than foreign accents, and I found that to be a far greater assault against British soil than this cartoonish Russian spy game.

 

To answer your question: the serious ones. And, allow me a quibble: no one was actually murdered.

Edited March 16, 2018 by CharlesSwann

[juice777]

You all seem unusually attached to 'British soil'. Last time I was on British soil, I felt thoroughly alientated on hearing fewer English accents than foreign accents, and I found that to be a far greater assault against British soil than this cartoonish Russian spy game.
 
To answer your question: the serious ones. And, allow me a quibble: no one was actually murdered.

That's disgusting

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[juice777]

 
I think your post affords the most convincing proof that this whole issue is fuelled merely by pique, neuroticism and insecurity, and appeals mainly to the astonishment of the credulous. Attempts to persuade me using that line of reasoning are worthless.
The far bigger issue at stake is world peace and the comity of nations, and the degree to which everyone is willing to jeopardise that on account of the pique, neuroticism and insecurity stirred up by a sideshow of the espionage industry - no more than a bit of guignol - is more than commonly worrying.

Saying we should tread carefully so it don't escalate to war is fine. Saying a nerve gas attack is not enough to fuss over is another thing. Would you be saying the same if the attack was from Muslim country probley not after reading your last post. And if you consider foreign languages a biger Threat then a nerve gas attack then I would suggest you are the insecure one.

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[sambum]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

A la Falklands. Just rejoice!

I don't often "like" your posts, but credit where credit is due - or are you being serious?

[RuamRudy]

14 hours ago, juice777 said:

 

It's not important enough to fuss over are you mad?

 

I am not so sure if people have a problem with Russia killing a ex spy I think a lot of people would have the attitude it's all in the game including me actually.

 

As a lot of people say all countries secret services have probley murderd people abroad. However using nerve gas on British soil is what's the the main issue is here it put normal inconce British lifes at risk and a police man still might Die.Not to mention it could terrify some people.

 

Also its Russia saying look at you your nothing we can do what we like we are Russia you can't touch us. If we don't do nothing it could happen again and next time British people could actually Die if they still don't.

 

Lots of affirmations in your post there, but the one thing that is missing in all of this affair is actual physical evidence. The news is awash with supposition and innuendo, but there has been no tangibe proof proposed; only an official narrative upon which it is seemingly treasonous to cast doubt.

 

What possible motive would the BBC have for photoshopping the below photo of Jeremy Corbyn to make the hat he wears frequently look like a Russian ushanka, then superimpose his face over a crimson Kremlin, then use this as the backdrop throughout the day, including for a lengthy discussion on the subject, if not to (1) make him appear to be in the Kremlin's pocket; (2) confirm Russia's guilt to a clearly very gullible public?

[evadgib]

15 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

... apart from the small matter of a British copper, and the potential to harm many more British citizens.

I' ve sat on that very bench many times, as has my wife, children and elderly parents who live just a few mins away.

[riclag]

"Unfortunately in this day and age thanks to fake news/ Info war's /nonsense click bait videos on YouTube etc people are looking for a Conspiracy Theory in Everything. Also it seems like no one can agree with a person or government sometimes and disagree other times. It seems like the line in the sand is drawn you have to pick a side and start shouting and ignore facts if those facts favour a person you dislike. It's not about the right argument it's about the right person saying it".

 

I read through the comments and found this of interest, in particular.

U.S. and Uzbeks Agree on Chemical Arms Plant Cleanup mentions this in post 84.

The article was written in 1999 and some how turned up in this thread.

 

Last night what I thought was a friend  made a comment to me in front of  several friends,he said"America and Britain was responsible for the chemical agent attack on the 2 spies". My first reaction was disgust and denial and wanting to defend my country and my honor especially from what was  perceived as a verbal slap in the face. I held back looked at everyone's face ,in the silence, I  tried to look not offended and changed the subject.

 

I learned  something today ,yes still learning after 65 years! News,Media and what could be perceived as a friend/acquaintance is all up in the air in this day and age of fake news. To try and link the west and spin this our fault is ridiculous !!

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by riclag

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

I' ve sat on that very bench many times, as has my wife, children and elderly parents who live just a few mins away.

Well wash them then

[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Well wash them then

Plod will have beaten me to it by the time I'm next there ?